TV Signal Compression In The Real World - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 270 Old 09-27-2013, 05:35 PM
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On NCIS, they put vaseline on the camera lens so that Mark Harmon doesn't look too old. wink.gif

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post #242 of 270 Old 09-27-2013, 08:32 PM
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I hope you are correct even though I'm sure that providing the sub with better PQ will have nothing to do with a move to 4K (they don't even care about providing 1080P now). Simple marketing strategy, ie profits, will understandably be the driver of this car, as it always has been. I can live with that.

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post #243 of 270 Old 09-27-2013, 11:46 PM
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On NCIS, they put vaseline on the camera lens so that Mark Harmon doesn't look too old. wink.gif

Ron

I think you're right as I don't recall NCIS ever looking that good. However NCIS-LA does look good.
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post #244 of 270 Old 09-28-2013, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I certainly do not know much about the workings of a TV production studio but it does seem like some shows have much better PQ than others even on the same channel.., example is NCIS vs NCIS LA. Since they are both on CBS on the same night back to back is fair to assume that one studio is using better equipment? I wonder how many different studios are used between CBS,NBC,FOX, and ABC, and are any of them actually owned by said networks.
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post #245 of 270 Old 09-29-2013, 12:21 PM
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I certainly do not know much about the workings of a TV production studio but it does seem like some shows have much better PQ than others even on the same channel.., example is NCIS vs NCIS LA. Since they are both on CBS on the same night back to back is fair to assume that one studio is using better equipment? I wonder how many different studios are used between CBS,NBC,FOX, and ABC, and are any of them actually owned by said networks.

All modern broadcast equipment is comparable in terms of frequency response and noise. And it has gotten very cost competitive as well.

What you are seeing are the artistic decisions by the production company. Many directors, PPs, producers do not like the sharp Discovery Channel HD look. One of the most expensive options in the former early 2000s hardware based Davinci 2K color corrector was the defocus board. This allows the image to be softened without blurring. The software equivalent of this device is now standard in most file based color correctors.

All HD production gear in use today is capable of a sharp knife edge image. The softness you see in true HD presentations is intentional.

The TV networks do not do any episodic television in house to my knowledge. It is all outsourced and has been for the past 20 years. Game shows, American Idol, Katie, Kelly & Micheal are the types of production done internally. And of course news. Sports is also outsourced but here the networks do have much more control in the truck often using their own staff directors.

The reasoning behind this is that episodic TV is basically just mini movies so why not let the movie industry do it as they do it best and have the staff and tools to do it efficiently.

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post #246 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So you're saying that the producers of NCIS intentionally delivers a softer picture than the producers of NCIS LA? What, they think we like that softer picture better? OMG.
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post #247 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 09:21 AM
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So you're saying that the producers of NCIS intentionally delivers a softer picture than the producers of NCIS LA? What, they think we like that softer picture better? OMG.

Possibly based on the colorist preference. There is no technical reason they can't be the same.

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post #248 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 02:37 PM
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The Soft look sucks. I remember on CSI Miami they would jack up the color and make it oversaturated. You had to compensate by lowering the color on your set at home--that kinda worked and kind of didn't.

What I do like are shows that have colors in them that you don't usually see--pinks and teals and mints--nothing is worse than a show that is all orange or all green. Yes folks tint does vary greatly between different stations and even on the same station different shows.

What makes me puke is the million times you hear around here that you should get what the director intended? What if the director is a moron?!

What I want to see is people in the video industry who have enough imagination to take GARBAGE in and put something BEAUTIFUL out!

Anybody that could take the crummy pictures of cable or satellite and make them look good ANYWAY--now that would be a video maestro!

NO ONE in the next 1000 years will be able to make LCD look good!
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post #249 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha. I read that post without looking to see who wrote it. After the last sentence I knew right away.
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post #250 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 05:01 PM
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What makes me puke is the million times you hear around here that you should get what the director intended? What if the director is a moron?!

 

LOL!!!!  Well, I gotta say this was pretty good!  Love it.


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post #251 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 05:27 PM
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On a serious note does anyone remember VIR in the eighties? GE got a technical Emmy award for it.

Basically it was a signal sent out by TV stations that would automatically give a condensed range of Picture parameters. It would make it impossible for anyone to adjust their set so that people would have pink or green faces. Not only was there a range for tint but there was a range for brightness and contrast, too.

You could still manually adjust the set a little bit but you couldn't mess it up too bad.

I don't remember if all stations had the exact same VIR signal but overall it helped correct sets so if one station broadcast towards the red side of tint and another broadcast towards the green side of tint or if one station was overly dark or bright or had much contrast or less contrast--it would mollify those excesses.

A way for you younger people out there who don't know much about the eighties was it was like a volume equalizer that keeps volumes of different stations roughly equal.

It could be a great thing--of course sometimes we want more dynamic range--we don't want the range COMPRESSED.

This may be a stupid question but do many TVs today have picture signal automatic adjustment? I think it should be an option because some stations do vary alot in the signals that they send out--some vary one way or another in tint--some in brightness or contrast--and individual shows vary--whether live or in studio or film or video--THEY DO VARY.

The reason I say it should be an option that can be turned on or off is that sometimes you WANT the picture to look different--an outdoor sunny day football game should look different than an indoor horror movie--whoever has the TV should be able to decide whether they want the benefits of automatic picture adjustment.

Some people don't mind making minor adjustments everytime they change channels--some would like to not worry about it and get all their shows in a better average of whatever they think a good picture is.

I know Direct-view CRT by Sony got pretty sophisticated with their automatic signal correction in the 90s.

The question is kind of like do you like a bad straight shift car or a good automatic car?--It depends on how good or how bad and exactly what the car will be used for.

Where am I going with all of this? I think there should be much more standardization when it comes to video quality--the DUMBO Joe Six packs should be able to push a button and get pretty good adjusted pictures no matter how retarded they are!

Commercials shouldn't be loud enough to blow you out of the house! I know it's suppose to be that way but GET REAL==IT ISN'T!

And wouldn't it be nice if video quality for all shows was as good as the SUPER BOWL and the commercials on Super Bowl Sunday?

I HATE compression but I love TVs that MAKE people watch great quality video that they can't mess up whether they like it or not!

Give people choice when it comes to great things--don't let them be able to choose LOUSY things like,,,,I guess yall can guess that one!
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post #252 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 05:52 PM
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On a serious note does anyone remember VIR in the eighties? GE got a technical Emmy award for it.

Basically it was a signal sent out by TV stations that would automatically give a condensed range of Picture parameters. It would make it impossible for anyone to adjust their set so that people would have pink or green faces. Not only was there a range for tint but there was a range for brightness and contrast, too.

You could still manually adjust the set a little bit but you couldn't mess it up too bad.

I don't remember if all stations had the exact same VIR signal but overall it helped correct sets so if one station broadcast towards the red side of tint and another broadcast towards the green side of tint or if one station was overly dark or bright or had much contrast or less contrast--it would mollify those excesses.

A way for you younger people out there who don't know much about the eighties was it was like a volume equalizer that keeps volumes of different stations roughly equal.

It could be a great thing--of course sometimes we want more dynamic range--we don't want the range COMPRESSED.

This may be a stupid question but do many TVs today have picture signal automatic adjustment? I think it should be an option because some stations do vary alot in the signals that they send out--some vary one way or another in tint--some in brightness or contrast--and individual shows vary--whether live or in studio or film or video--THEY DO VARY.

The reason I say it should be an option that can be turned on or off is that sometimes you WANT the picture to look different--an outdoor sunny day football game should look different than an indoor horror movie--whoever has the TV should be able to decide whether they want the benefits of automatic picture adjustment.

Some people don't mind making minor adjustments everytime they change channels--some would like to not worry about it and get all their shows in a better average of whatever they think a good picture is.

I know Direct-view CRT by Sony got pretty sophisticated with their automatic signal correction in the 90s.

The question is kind of like do you like a bad straight shift car or a good automatic car?--It depends on how good or how bad and exactly what the car will be used for.

Where am I going with all of this? I think there should be much more standardization when it comes to video quality--the DUMBO Joe Six packs should be able to push a button and get pretty good adjusted pictures no matter how retarded they are!

Commercials shouldn't be loud enough to blow you out of the house! I know it's suppose to be that way but GET REAL==IT ISN'T!

And wouldn't it be nice if video quality for all shows was as good as the SUPER BOWL and the commercials on Super Bowl Sunday?

I HATE compression but I love TVs that MAKE people watch great quality video that they can't mess up whether they like it or not!

Give people choice when it comes to great things--don't let them be able to choose LOUSY things like,,,,I guess yall can guess that one!

VIR was an attempt for auto color correction in the consumer set. It included a luminance level, chrominance level and the chroma phase was that of the burst reference. From an engineering perspective it worked on sets equipped to use it. From a practical standpoint it was a disaster so much so that most people left it off or manual.

The problem was the same age old problem of color bars at the head of a show tape. The color bars were a manual VIR for the tape engineer to set the VTR up. This assumed the bars on tape were processed through the same chain as the program material. Well they were most often not and did not represent the actual program levels and color phase. If fact it was rather commonplace in the 1980s to re-record fresh bars at the tape head so "they look good". And dub houses as well as satellite facilities often inserted local color bars on feeds thus the reference signal had no relation to the program.

VIR was treated in a similar haphazard fashion. Many local stations reinserted VITS and VIR locally thus overriding the network or production facility VIR. And that assumes the network or production facility VIR was right to begin with which it often was not. VIR was on line 19 which is not part of the active frame. It very often got stripped by sync processors and digital effects equipment which did not store sync for memory capacity reasons - remember this was late 1970s / early 1980s. Closed captioning was put on line 21, an active visible scan line just for this reason, it wouldn't get stripped.

The digital broadcast technologies of the 1990s (not to be confused with digital broadcasting) fixed this problem to a large degree because the transmission links were now repeatable and much more stable. The digital VTR also made consistent quality a routine thing.

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post #253 of 270 Old 09-30-2013, 08:21 PM
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Well do any TVs now automatically adjust the picture to make smaller the differences between channels?

Am I crazy or do some channels appear more to the green end of the tint spectrum and some more towards the red end of the tint spectrum? I know some are darker and some or brighter. Do any TVs automatically adjust to remove those differences?

Look--you can have the most perfectly calibrated set on planet Earth but if you don't adjust for the material that is sent to it you won't have a perfectly adjusted picture.

And I would suppose that some TVS that adjust to room brightness do a better job than others.

More than just a review of a set when calibrated to its best in the best possible room conditions--I'd like to know how well a TV adjusts to bad video quality programming sent to it and how well it automatically adjusts to different light conditions.

You hear alot about how a set looks in bright conditions and dark lit conditions--what I don't hear is how well it can adjust for and make corrections automatically by itself to different conditions.

Does anybody comment on that in reviews?
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post #254 of 270 Old 10-01-2013, 06:26 AM
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I have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible for a TV to perform facial recognition, detect the skin tone, and offer a one-button push to calibrate to that as an option.  A myriad of problems in that of course, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.


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post #255 of 270 Old 10-01-2013, 07:08 AM
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Well do any TVs now automatically adjust the picture to make smaller the differences between channels?

There is no image quality "correction" signal or data in video signals or streams today. There is AFD Active Format Descriptor that was supposed to fix the postage stamp problem n HDTVs with SD material that is letter boxed for example. Fox was the only network that ever specified it in deliverables and I don't think they ever implemented it on the network side.

While things are still not perfect, digital has gone a long way in keeping consistency throughout the system. Most tape based programming today is plug and play. There are no level adjustments needed although they are provided for. Sure wasn't the case with analog video tape. In fact most broadcast operations today will not make any adjustments to material. If it's not right upon delivery, it gets rejected. Today's broadcast plants are server based and highly automated with limited staff. Tape is only an ingest source and that will soon change to non realtime internet delivery as well.

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post #256 of 270 Old 10-01-2013, 07:21 AM
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I have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible for a TV to perform facial recognition, detect the skin tone, and offer a one-button push to calibrate to that as an option.  A myriad of problems in that of course, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.

In order to do that you would need a reference included in the data or signal. That is what VIR was. Otherwise how would the TV know what the proper skin tone is for the particular shot? Got a tan? Lighting? Intentional creative hue shift - let's make someone look sick. Even within the same race and gene pool, show me two humans with exactly the same flesh tones. All kinds of variables here. Yes you can calibrate to a known standard and that's what we do especially here at AVS but you have no assurance the content provider is calibrated to the same standard.

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post #257 of 270 Old 10-01-2013, 10:26 AM
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I remember on CSI Miami they would jack up the color and make it oversaturated. You had to compensate by lowering the color on your set at home--that kinda worked and kind of didn't.
The "look" for CSI Miami was that highly saturated image. It was an intentional artistic decision. Television and film are not always trying to recreate reality.
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Look--you can have the most perfectly calibrated set on planet Earth but if you don't adjust for the material that is sent to it you won't have a perfectly adjusted picture.
No, this is backwards. The point of calibration is that your display meets the same spec as any other calibrated display, so any content you display on it will look the same as any other calibrated display.

If you start adjusting the picture on a program-by-program or channel-by-channel basis, nothing will look as it was intended.
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What I want to see is people in the video industry who have enough imagination to take GARBAGE in and put something BEAUTIFUL out!
Then you will be quite happy with the "remastering" features a lot of displays have now that will "correct" intentionally lifted black levels, "fix" gamma in scenes that are intentionally meant to be dark and make things difficult to see, "clear white" to ensure that any intentional color tint in the image is removed, "live color" to adjust everyone's skintone to be algorithmically "perfect" to reduce variance and stop pale people looking pale, detail and edge enhancers to sharpen up intentionally soft material, noise reduction algorithms to remove film grain and make skin look airbrushed...
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You hear alot about how a set looks in bright conditions and dark lit conditions--what I don't hear is how well it can adjust for and make corrections automatically by itself to different conditions.
Sony have TVs which will automatically adjust the backlight brightness and white balance based on the room conditions.
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I have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible for a TV to perform facial recognition, detect the skin tone, and offer a one-button push to calibrate to that as an option. A myriad of problems in that of course, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.
You might want to investigate the advanced options of your Sony TV's menus. (though they're less effective on lower-end models)


And my stance on this, is that I want to see the content as it was intended to be seen. My TV has all these features and I never use them.
If you are watching broadcast, there's no telling what, if anything, the broadcaster has done to the image, and if they have made the effort to have a good source. But it almost doesn't matter because it will be compressed to hell and look terrible anyway. That's why I only watch Blu-rays.

That said, I think there have been some very poor remasters done for Blu-ray, which I wish had been optional. I would buy another copy of The Matrix if I could see it again as it was originally shot, without the strong blue/green tint on the image - that's not the film I remember.
Another film which I seem to recall having a very bad remaster was "Gangs of New York" where everything just looked brown. (I don't really care about the film though, that's just from when I used to actually follow the latest Blu-ray releases and reviews)
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post #258 of 270 Old 10-01-2013, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Watching only blu-rays is a highly unlikely scenario for most folks. Maybe I'm just being to simplistic but, why in the hell do some shows on say CBS look great (Mentalist)and some shows on CBS look horrible (NCIS)? This past weekend the Notre Dame game was like wide screen SD.
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post #259 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 12:17 AM
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The only thing worse than NCIS is the Chiller Channel.

I do tweak my TV for different channels and different shows--most of the time you don't really have to do anything but sometimes if the picture is way off I think that you have to tweak it because the channel provider ISN'T providing what the director of the show really intended.

Can I guess his mind? No! But i do know when a picture is off and sucks and if I can make it better looking I will.

What's the great purity hangup about having a perfectly calibrated display and then not doing anything to various MESSED up shows so you can watch TV quality that SUCKS?!

Can anyone explain that to me?

I bet you that most calibrators at home will tweak their own calibrated TVs if they really want to watch a show or a channel and KNOW that what is sent to them is messed up!
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post #260 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 02:46 AM
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What's the great purity hangup about having a perfectly calibrated display and then not doing anything to various MESSED up shows so you can watch TV quality that SUCKS?!
If you are watching broadcast, the quality is always going to be poor. Don't watch broadcast.
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What's the great purity hangup about having a perfectly calibrated display and then not doing anything to various MESSED up shows so you can watch TV quality that SUCKS?!
If you are watching broadcast, the quality is always going to be poor. Don't watch broadcast.

 

You're an extreme purist though: you've said you watch only off of physical media (BD) correct?  That's not convenient enough for the vast majority of us.  Besides, things the public really wants to watch (Homeland, The Sopranos, Spartacus, plus all the non-premium shows that have taken off, etc.) are broadcast only unless you wait a year+.


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I have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible for a TV to perform facial recognition, detect the skin tone, and offer a one-button push to calibrate to that as an option. A myriad of problems in that of course, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.
You might want to investigate the advanced options of your Sony TV's menus. (though they're less effective on lower-end models)

 

Doesn't stop the "Lavender Lip Effect" (a term concocted in the R550 thread).  Nothing seems to.  Dropping the color level to black and white and raising it slowly, the lips are the first thing that show up with color.  No matter what advanced effect or combination of them is used.

 

Not every channel.  But enough of them that it's becoming more and more of an irritant.  Just when I think it's solved, a different channel will have a movie completely botched.  Or worse, in some cases a movie will have faces that are "ok" but then one or two characters that push the red to 11.

 

Much less so for movies than regular non-premium broadcast however.  The latter is a terrible crapshoot.


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post #263 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 07:14 AM
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You're an extreme purist though: you've said you watch only off of physical media (BD) correct?  That's not convenient enough for the vast majority of us.  Besides, things the public really wants to watch (Homeland, The Sopranos, Spartacus, plus all the non-premium shows that have taken off, etc.) are broadcast only unless you wait a year+.
I find that it's more convenient. I know whether the shows are worth my time in advance, and I'm no longer tied into the broadcaster's schedule.
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post #264 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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A DVR pretty much takes care of that. Your philosophy negates news broadcasts and live sports. One maybe, but both? Probably not an option with the majority of viewers.
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post #265 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

A DVR pretty much takes care of that. Your philosophy negates news broadcasts and live sports. One maybe, but both? Probably not an option with the majority of viewers.

 

Probably fine if you don't mind routing for last year's team.  Just don't anyone tell him how it turned out.  :)

 

I agree though in one regard.  Blu-Ray is pretty dang nifty.

 

Chron, I'm curious though, how do you get your media?  Redbox?  Purchase?


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post #266 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

A DVR pretty much takes care of that.
With a DVR you're still waiting a week until the next episode airs, and you're stuck with broadcast quality which is far below Blu-ray quality.
Buy the boxset and you get the best picture & sound, and can watch it whenever it suits you. No need to manage drive space on a DVR, and you always have it in your library to watch whenever you want.
Buying a TV season boxset on Blu-ray is about a quarter to a third of the monthly cost of a basic TV package here, and I get the full season instead of four episodes.
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Your philosophy negates news broadcasts and live sports.
I have the internet, so I don't need to watch live news, and I don't really care about the quality of news anyway.
No interest in watching sports at all.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I agree though in one regard.  Blu-Ray is pretty dang nifty.
Chron, I'm curious though, how do you get your media?  Redbox?  Purchase?
Purchase. I tried out rental services a few years back, but the lack of being able to say "send me this film next" and feeling pressured to watch and and return discs, then wait for new ones to arrive was a nuisance.
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post #267 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

May want to read up on what it is. Providers can use QOS to help control those users that are abusers, or also make it so that all users have the ability of using the service the ISP gives them the same speeds within the limits of the infrastructure.
If ISPs did not control use on their LAN's, you would end up with everyone only getting 1meg down, 56k up on a large ISP in a city. Traffic Shaping is what we are talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_shaping Net Neutrality has nothing to do with this, other than the ISPs have to be fair to all users in their service area, and allow them access to the service. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality
I guess so - I was under the impression that the laws were specifically to prevent an ISP restricting traffic from potential competitors like Netflix.

 

Sorry to dig this up again, but it's time appropriate now and yes Chron you're correct.  In any case, here's an interesting report on what's currently happening with the US net neutrality attempts and how it's absurdly connected to the current hissyfit in congress.


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post #268 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Chron, I'm curious though, how do you get your media?  Redbox?  Purchase?
Purchase. I tried out rental services a few years back, but the lack of being able to say "send me this film next" and feeling pressured to watch and and return discs, then wait for new ones to arrive was a nuisance.

 

Since you like purchasing, consider using the camelcamelcamel plugin.  It's great for such things.


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post #269 of 270 Old 10-02-2013, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Can't argue with anybody that has no interest in sports. That's the main reason I haven't cut the cord. In my case I record lots and lots of weekly shows. The ones we really like we watch weekly. The ones we only kind of like I record the entire season and store it on my EHD and we watch the season during the summer or on a long weekend. So far I've recorded the first and second seasons Of "Game of Thrones" when HBO has shown it during a free preview weekend. It's not blu-ray quality but still quite watchable. I still buy quite a few blu-ray movies and the occasional 3D blu-ray if the price is right. Viewing habits are like---- ah you know what I mean.
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post #270 of 270 Old 11-05-2013, 08:26 AM
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i think so,anything built into a television or video processor is generally awful, and really hurts image quality.thanks

pNEg

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