Majorly Bad ELITE Black level - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 07-18-2013, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have got no help with this in the main plasma forum and anyone I thought may have knowledge on tv repairs ahs ignored me, so figured I would post one here in case people with knowledge are more likely to be in the tech forum.

I have a pioneer elite with TERRIBLE black levels. The black bars or a full screen of black looks far brighter than my old CCFL LCD.

The only repair person I could find claimed it's a "great black level" without using a colorimeter or anything else to measure the level of it.

What in the world do I do now? I don't know any step to take to get it figured out. I thought someone on this site, of all sites, would be knowledgeable about parts in the plasma and which could do this, since repair people claim it's working properly so I have no choice but figure out the problem myself, but I guess I was wrong. Only real answers I get are "pay someone $400 to calibrate and see if that helps". Like calibrating a tv with issues is going to do much.

Would the x or y sustain board be more likely to mess with black levels? Thinking it out, wouldn't a tv not getting as black as it should be related to too much voltage and maybe the electric current not "done away with" quickly enough? Surely there is someone on thiss tie who knows any of this, out of the thousands who post.
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post #2 of 29 Old 07-18-2013, 10:41 AM
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What model is it? Pioneer were making Elite models before they had "Kuro" branded models. Only the second generation and "2.5G" Kuros had good black levels. The first generation Kuros (8G Pioneer Plasma) were only about 3,000:1 calibrated (maybe 5,000:1 uncalibrated) and prior to that, I think they were only about 1,000:1.
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post #3 of 29 Old 07-18-2013, 12:59 PM
 
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He has a 111FD, 9G.
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post #4 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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yeah,111, and it was manufactured in 2008, so it wasn't one of the later produced ones. I've tried everything and everywhere and nobody has any ideas anymore. frown.gif

Since they are selling for so much less now than even a few months ago, I WOULD be tempted to buy another and sell this for whatever and take the loss, but I am also stuck with an hx929 that nobody seems interested in, so I am out thousands and thousands with no tv I want.
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post #5 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 06:28 AM
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If Pioneer support are no help, try to get in touch with the user here called D-Nice - he may be able to help you out. http://www.avsforum.com/u/7481996/d-nice
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Since they are selling for so much less now than even a few months ago, I WOULD be tempted to buy another and sell this for whatever and take the loss, but I am also stuck with an hx929 that nobody seems interested in, so I am out thousands and thousands with no tv I want.
Very few electronics hold their value - especially televisions where the high end costs significantly more than the low end, and most people don't care about the difference. What's wrong with your HX929 though?
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post #6 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I already have. He ignores me.

With the HX929, somehow I was getting a headache, and I also just decided on plasma. But as far as holding value, it was manufactured only a year ago and is the very last full array 46 inch Sony will ever have AND has a three year extended warranty AND I only used it on and off for half a year or less. So this close to when it was actually manufactured, it should have value. the tvs which lose a lot of value are ones where there are better ones the next year. It's been two years now since the original hx929 release and no better 46 inch full array led has been made by any manufacturer. One problem, though, is places like ebay charge such high fees it's hard to get fair value and craig's list makes it where less people are interested due to it usually being more locally driven.
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post #7 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somelogin View Post

I already have. He ignores me.
I'm sorry then, I don't know what the solution is. I would have thought Pioneer still supported the sets. Here they are legally required to support them for five years after production. (though I suppose even that is coming to an end)
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With the HX929, somehow I was getting a headache
Usually people that report headaches with LED sets have them too bright. Try lowering the backlight control. There are also Clear and Impulse modes on the HX929 which use backlight scanning that may give you a headache. (but I wouldn't expect you to be able to watch Plasmas either, if that were the case)
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So this close to when it was actually manufactured, it should have value. the tvs which lose a lot of value are ones where there are better ones the next year. It's been two years now since the original hx929 release and no better 46 inch full array led has been made by any manufacturer.
They all lose value quickly. Only videophiles care about the local dimming that the HX929 has, and on sites like this, plasma fanboys give local dimming a bad name, so fewer are interested in it. Electronics just don't hold any value, especially in this economy. The HX900, HX920, and HX950 did not reach the revered status that the Kuros did. (though some would argue that they should have)
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post #8 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 12:32 PM
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Maybe your tv is in PC-mode?
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post #9 of 29 Old 07-19-2013, 04:57 PM
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The brightness control would be able to fix that though.
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post #10 of 29 Old 07-20-2013, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No, I've used all modes, all setting changes, etc. Even switched inputs. And not that I know much about how tvs work, but it would seem to me for a plasma to have the entire screen affected it wouldn't be the panel itself, since it lights everything individually. But then again I don't know much about how it works. All I know is I am pretty convinced that if someone would ever measure the black level it would be a minimum of 10 times brighter than it's supposed to be. Because I believe my old LCD is supposed to be something like 30 times brighter and even that is dimmer than this elite. So I am being mighty low on my 10 times estimate. I would be ERY surprised if it measures anything better than that. But obviously I'll never know because the only calibrators who have said they could just check the level and do no calibration, only check that level, have said it would cost three figures which is way too much to pay just to be told "this is how bad your issue is".

As for the 929, all you need is one person to be in demand for it, especially since mine is so recently manufactured and has 3 years extended warranty. I myself have bought several used tvs at high prices and like I said people who are convinced they need full array, local dimming led and they don't want above a 46, this is their only option. Just a few months ago they were still going for $1700 with no extended warranty and a lot more used than mine. But if nobody buys it, I'll just sell it to a relative. I got screwed over with two expensive tvs and one is faulty and the other gives me headaches. And I was using cnet settings, tweaked with the wow disc, so it wasn't hat it was too bright. In fact I kept backlight at minimum and contrast I believe I had even lower than some do and frankly it looked dull and dim to me, which I think people underestimate as being the cause of headaches also. Looking at a dull picture you have to strain your eyes to see details in is worse than even vivid modes.

Anyway, it just sucks nobody has answers on this one. It seems every time someone mentions a tv problem here, someone has the answer, but nobody ever knows anything on my issues and I am out so much money. And some have suggested to get a calibration. Well who is going to want to spend $400 to calibrate a tv with a horrible minimum black level?

Other than finding some repair-knowledgeable person, there is no hope other than if D-nice knew tweaks with voltages which could affect it, but obviously he's not interested, so there's just no options for me. And a lot of people have been rude and pretty much said things like "get over it" and accept the tv is broken. Yeah that sure helps. As if any time someone has a faulty tv they "get over it" and don't try to get it fixed.
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post #11 of 29 Old 07-20-2013, 10:24 AM
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please explain: when did you buy this ELITE PRO 111FD TV, and how much did you pay for it? Were the black levels terrible from the start?


You've got to find out whats wrong and what it costs to repair it. You need a pro for this. Find the cheapest one in your area wink.gif Then you'll have the necessary information to make THE decision: repair it or get rid of it.


the TV Technicians might be helpfull smile.gif
http://www.justanswer.com/tv-repair/experts.html
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post #12 of 29 Old 07-20-2013, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks. I'll check them out, but as far as repairs go, that's my point is there is apparently only one authorized repair shop near here and they seems insistent that the black levels were fine and are "supposed to" look gray, which is not true. I bought it this year for nearly two grand used, so yeah that seems bad, although I didn't notice problems or I obviously would have tried to return it, so I just have to assume it's coincidence that it now ahs them... But it's not too relevant now how it got that way because I don't really have options.

edit: I'll do that once I am sure there are no other options, since it's risking money for advice which really I could have no idea if it's useful or not when it's going to have to involve part replacements.

I would have just thought that this would be a common thing where people know parts A, B, and C are most likely to lead to it. I had thought maybe the y-sustain not getting rid of the charge properly or something. Plus there has been popping, so seems like that could maybe mean too much heat/current or something.
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post #13 of 29 Old 08-01-2013, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Bump. No clue what to do and getting a calibration is sure not the answer when something is wrong with the set. It would be ncie if it's true that it's some setting related to voltages, but that is highly unlikely.
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post #14 of 29 Old 08-01-2013, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Because, trust me, it's not a case of me having crazy expectations. If you see it, you know it has major issues. it's not just a little off. When I watched the LOTR blu rays any time there was a dark scene the stupid black bars were so bright I could barely even concentrate on the movies. As I've said before, they get even brighter than my CCFL LCD, which should never EVER happen for ANY scene with this tv model. And the reason I assume a calibration can't fix it is because the previous owner used d-nice's slides and settings and even considering variations in panels, it could never be THIS bad with his settings. Also, I have turned brightness and contrast all the way down to minimums to test what would happen and the black did not get any darker whatsoever. With only those two settigns you can get it as black as it can get by lowering them, so for it to STILL be horrible even after that means it's got major issues.
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post #15 of 29 Old 08-02-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Explain to me how getting a broken tv calibrated is worth doing. I don't think any professional would believe that my problems can be fixed with a calibration. Like I've said, someone else on this very site had this same type issue EVEN AFTER he had his tv professionally calibrated and never got it fixed and gave up and sold it to someone who didn't notice. In fact I think mine is even worse than his, because he said his was triple the normal level and I bet mine is AT ELAST ten times the normal level.Three times the elite normal level would still look black. Mine doesn't even look freakin black half the time. It looks almost like someone took a CCFL LCD and threw the name ELITE on it.
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post #16 of 29 Old 08-05-2013, 02:15 AM
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I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. It seems that you have just had bad luck. From my experience, the Pioneer Kuros are above average in reliability and build qualtiy but getting one second hand can be a risk all the same. I bought a 500m in march and it is performing fantastically, no problems whatsoever.

I don't know who you could contact to figure out whether or not the problem is repairable, but it would seem that you are out of luck. If you want more security in your purchase, you would have no choice but to buy one of the new Panasonic plasmas with a warrantee. If you want to buy a Pioneer Kuro used again, be very careful of the seller and make sure that you are making the right decision.

The best of the Kuros are still the best tv's you can get, but if they go bad, you are unfortunately out of luck.

I hope you get your set repaired. Good luck in the future.
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post #17 of 29 Old 08-11-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There seems to be nobody who can tell me if it can be repaired, still. frown.gif Only one place was even authorized and the guy just abrely looked at the screen and said it had great black levels when even he implied they looked gray "but that's normal" and he judged it all on how they looked with lights on on a checkerboard screen or something similar, rather than using any instrument to measure anything. It's VERY obviously horrible black levels when watching dark scenes in pitch black which have black bars.

If Panasonics didn't ruin my head with flicker I would have got one to begin with instead of this, but they are unwatchable for me.
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post #18 of 29 Old 08-11-2013, 02:56 PM
 
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^I don't see flicker on the 60 series (ZT anyway). I did in the beginning of ownership in a rare brightly lit scene (with uniform background) but haven't noticed it since. Granted, I wouldn't be happy about needing to upgrade so soon after a major purchase either.
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post #19 of 29 Old 08-11-2013, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It varies from person to person, though. there are a lot of sets where some are bothered by flicker and some don't see it at all. I tried a ST30 and ST50 in the past and they bothered me. The ST50 about tore my head in two it bothered me so much. Then I saw an ST60 in a store and noticed flicker right off (I can't feel the head issues by just quickly looking in a bright store, but I could see it flickering). If for some reason the ZT would have less flicker and me not notice it, that would be good, but then the problem is you can't get one in less than 60 inches and plus so expensive. And it just seems odd that people who repair tvs should not be expected to know which parts could cause this. Apparently all they do is fix things which are truly broken where there is no picture or it has lines all through it and are incompetent when it comes to bad black levels only. It shouldn't be a lot to expect if I think my tv should be fixed. I wish the thing would just totally stop working because the remainder of my warranty would give me enough money to buy another of the same model, since they cost so much less now than even a few months ago.

Or if someone here were so nice they want to trade me a working one for mine. tongue.gif
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post #20 of 29 Old 08-11-2013, 10:11 PM
 
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Yup, I haven't spent time any time with the ST. It seems at least one pro reviewer felt that 96 hz mode effectively eliminated it on the ZT. I'm pleased with what I see. Maybe you should look into the VT60 since it's virtually the same panel, costs less, and comes in 55".

As for the current malady-ridden TV, everyone's at a loss. I still say get down and dirty with ControlCAL and reset it in the meantime, to hell with what you think the root cause is. wink.gif
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post #21 of 29 Old 08-12-2013, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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yeah, but 96hz would not be sued for 60hz, ie cable.

As dead as the controlCAL site is, who knows if they even pay attention anymore and if I reset it and then cant even get controlCAL I would be mad.
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post #22 of 29 Old 08-12-2013, 07:22 AM
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As dead as the controlCAL site is

That's news to me.

I'm available for PM here as well..

Need to find a Professional Calibrator?
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post #23 of 29 Old 08-19-2013, 04:28 AM
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A pulse reset would be the last resort in the service menu if you can't find anyone to help.

But then it kind of falls into the same category as people with the red tint issues like i did/had with my last Kuro. The way the voltage is driving the panel incorrectly basically.

A reset would give you back near 0MLL black, but it isn't just as simple as all that - other adjustments need to be made to compensate for the ageing algorithms.

But they sound like they are wrong on yours anyway.
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post #24 of 29 Old 08-20-2013, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well I sure would hope it's something like that rather than a bad panel itself, as at least there would be HOPE I could some day get this working properly. frown.gif But the way it's looking, nobody can help me anyway so it may very well have the ability to "fix itself" if only I had the right knowledge. All I can do is hope someone will come along who can help and as a backup plan I hope the thing stops working totally where I get paid by the warranty company. The amount my warranty is still worth would be more than it would cost to buy another on ebay. But no signs of it failing totally still. lol
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post #25 of 29 Old 08-31-2013, 06:45 AM
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Isn't there any POTS on the circuit board that can be adjusted like on the LGs where everyone was adjusting them to get darker black levels?
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post #26 of 29 Old 08-31-2013, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know, but if there is, that would sure be a hassle taking the back off and then the same problem is still there, in that I would know nothing about how to properly do it.

Any time I watch this tv, I think to myself "if that black level was proper, that would be an amazing picture", since the general plasma attributes are nice and I know what great black levels are like since I used a panny ST30 and ST50. Another reason it's funny when some people think i'm imaginging this issues. I've only seen a ton of great black levels to judge by.... those two pannies, the Samsung D7000 plasma, the sony nx720, hx820, hx929, hx850. Yep I don't know what great black levels are....
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post #27 of 29 Old 09-02-2013, 01:16 PM
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RGB mode set correctly?
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post #28 of 29 Old 09-02-2013, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
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RGB mode set correctly?
The brightness control would be able to fix that, if it was a levels mismatch.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-12-2013, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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yeah I've already been through all of the RGB mode changes etc. This has just got to be either a parts issue or a voltage issue.
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