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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

*UFO*'s Avatar *UFO*
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With OLED's arrival, it seems like now is the worst time to buy a new tv. Do you think that OLED will fall in price by the end of this year? Or are better LED or Plasma sets going to come out this year?
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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I believe what you see is what you get with today's LCD's and PDP's. Any improvements up the pike will be probably be minor. As far as OLED's are concerned. it will be quite some time before there will be any inroads when it comes to affordability. Their half life falls short of current flat panel technology and for most consumers, the pricing at this point, is too far a reach.



Ian
Mark Rejhon's Avatar Mark Rejhon
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Improvements to both LCD (LED) and plasma are going to be minor.

That said, as of 2012-2013 from the videogamer's perspective (low-latency methods of motion blur elimination) -- there's recently been some rather dramatic improvements to LCD's motion resolution in certain models via the development of strobe backlights (e.g. "LightBoost" 2D in computer monitors, and Sony's interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse"). These significantly outperform scanning backlights.
G-Rex's Avatar G-Rex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

Improvements to both LCD (LED) and plasma are going to be minor.

That said, as of 2012-2013 from the videogamer's perspective (low-latency methods of motion blur elimination) -- there's recently been some rather dramatic improvements to LCD's motion resolution in certain models via the development of strobe backlights (e.g. "LightBoost" 2D in computer monitors, and Sony's interpolation-free "Motionflow Impulse"). These significantly outperform scanning backlights.

Can you list the tv models in the 50" (+/-) that have this new impulse tech? I assume one would be the W900A. How is this set for gaming with this impulse tech? Is the back light in the impulse mode bright enough to be functional during gaming?
*UFO*'s Avatar *UFO*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Can you list the tv models in the 50" (+/-) that have this new impulse tech? I assume one would be the W900A. How is this set for gaming with this impulse tech? Is the back light in the impulse mode bright enough to be functional during gaming?

I have the w900a but am looking to return it because the picture quality is weak compared to my old U50 plasma. I used impulse mode a lot when I was gaming because it dramatically made motion smoother. It dimmed the picture, but the smoother motion was amazing. Better then plasma. You would not be able to use it in daylight though because of the dimming it does.
*UFO*'s Avatar *UFO*
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How long before OLED falls to around $3k?
8mile13's Avatar 8mile13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* 
How long before OLED falls to around $3k?

Yield is a problem. Its at 20% at the moment. They don't know how to solve this problem, they just hope they will have solved it within a few years. A few years after yield no longer is a problem you can buy your 3K OLED.

First pass yield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throughput_yield
Desk.'s Avatar Desk.
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I've got to agree with UFO - this feels like the worst possible time to buy a new TV.

Unfortunately, I've been forced into this position, having saved money for years in the hope my next set would be an OLED, and that I could afford to splash out on one while they were still relatively pricey.

So what's the solution? Buy a top-of-the-range TV now which gives a fantastic but ultimately flawed picture, and then sit envious when new OLED sets arrive at affordable prices, desperately wanting one, or limp on with an old CRT set for another 2, 3, 5 years, maybe? Let's face it - the OLED schedule has never run anywhere near to schedule.

It really annoys me that I can walk into a supermarket and see a mobile phone playing a trailer for Fast and the Furious 6 with perfect blacks, but that I can't get that as a TV. :-(
andy sullivan's Avatar andy sullivan
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When you think about it the question of buy now or buy later really depends on your age doesn't it. If I'm 35 I can wait for quite some time. Maybe not so much if I'm 65.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

I've got to agree with UFO - this feels like the worst possible time to buy a new TV.

Unfortunately, I've been forced into this position, having saved money for years in the hope my next set would be an OLED, and that I could afford to splash out on one while they were still relatively pricey.

So what's the solution? Buy a top-of-the-range TV now which gives a fantastic but ultimately flawed picture, and then sit envious when new OLED sets arrive at affordable prices, desperately wanting one, or limp on with an old CRT set for another 2, 3, 5 years, maybe? Let's face it - the OLED schedule has never run anywhere near to schedule.

It really annoys me that I can walk into a supermarket and see a mobile phone playing a trailer for Fast and the Furious 6 with perfect blacks, but that I can't get that as a TV. :-(


You can enjoy a great LCD or Plasma at a reasonable price (like Pansonic's ST60), until they start producing affordable OLED's. Lets face it, if the technology is not as reliable yet and will not be available to most consumers for quite some time to come, why not enjoy what may not be perfect, but certainly significantly better then an old CRT?


Ian
mr. wally's Avatar mr. wally
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well i'd rather by buying a display now than 10-12 years ago.

this is far from the worst time ever to have to buy a set.

if you can wait 1-2 years, hopefully these issues of the viability of oled, 4k , moth eye, izgo, plasma here or gone, should be largely resolved.
*UFO*'s Avatar *UFO*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

well i'd rather by buying a display now than 10-12 years ago.

this is far from the worst time ever to have to buy a set.

if you can wait 1-2 years, hopefully these issues of the viability of oled, 4k , moth eye, izgo, plasma here or gone, should be largely resolved.

My question is whether or not its the worst time to buy a tv in the current times, not form 12 years ago to now. If in a few months I can buy a 55" OLED set for $3K, or if my w900a drastically drops in price because of the new OLED's, then I would be quit angry. I guess its just a gamble. You can speculate what will happen but you wont know until it does. My fear is that they wont sell any of these sets at $15k and the prices will fall fast.
Wizziwig's Avatar Wizziwig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

It really annoys me that I can walk into a supermarket and see a mobile phone playing a trailer for Fast and the Furious 6 with perfect blacks, but that I can't get that as a TV. :-(

Sure you can. As long as you have $15K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

You can enjoy a great LCD or Plasma at a reasonable price (like Pansonic's ST60), until they start producing affordable OLED's. Lets face it, if the technology is not as reliable yet and will not be available to most consumers for quite some time to come, why not enjoy what may not be perfect, but certainly significantly better then an old CRT?
Ian

That depends on what's important to a buyer. ST60 has horrible input lag which would render it useless to a gamer vs. a zero-lag CRT. The CRT will also have better motion handling and blacks than any TV you can still buy today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

My fear is that they wont sell any of these sets at $15k and the prices will fall fast.

A drop to $3K is not going to happen any time soon unless they give up on OLED and have a fire-sale. Prices fall due to the laws of supply-demand. While the demand will be very low at these prices, the supply is even smaller. Until there is some breakthrough to improve yields, these prices are going to remain high. Competition will certainly help once Japan enters the market in 2 years.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97
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Aside: Can CRT go blacker than the last generation Kuro (I've seen as low as 0.0001 ftL with the special tweak, perhaps lower when it comes to the panels D-Nice has owned)? I think there's a bit of a fiction here because many CRT panels were not completely glow-free either.
Wizziwig's Avatar Wizziwig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Aside: Can CRT go blacker than the last generation Kuro (I've seen as low as 0.0001 ftL with the special tweak, perhaps lower when it comes to the panels D-Nice has owned)? I think there's a bit of a fiction here because many CRT panels were not completely glow-free either.

Never owned a Kuro. I did briefly own a Sharp Elite which measured pretty close. When viewing in a bat-cave, my calibrated 34" Sony XBR CRT killed it when displaying a full field black. It was so dark, I've had times where my TV would literally stay on for days on an unused input before I realized I forgot to turn it off.

Now the CRT will lose to a plasma when it comes to displaying black and white simultaneously. They have horrible ANSI contrast and the blacks appear to float up the more white is displayed at the same time. They also often had bad geometry, convergence, focus, color-uniformity, etc...and a limited size. Nothing is perfect.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

That depends on what's important to a buyer. ST60 has horrible input lag which would render it useless to a gamer vs. a zero-lag CRT. The CRT will also have better motion handling and blacks than any TV you can still buy today.

The ST60 was just an example. It offers an incredible picture for the money, but as you commented, all TV's have their shortfalls. Personally, despite some of the disadvantages, I would still take my Plasma over my CRT when it comes to over all picture quality.


Ian
Steve S's Avatar Steve S
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If you ignore the Kuro worshippers today's sets are the best ever, at ridiculously low prices compared to just a couple of years ago. Sure, an old Sony XBR Trinitron has great blacks, but it cost more for a paltry 34" screen than some very good 60" tvs today.

As far as anyone not suffering from "princess and the pea syndrome" today is the best time yet to buy a new tv.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

If you ignore the Kuro worshippers today's sets are the best ever, at ridiculously low prices compared to just a couple of years ago. Sure, an old Sony XBR Trinitron has great blacks, but it cost more for a paltry 34" screen than some very good 60" tvs today.
Do you care more about price, size, or quality?

It's certainly true that the trickle-down effect has worked very well for televisions, and all but the most basic sets can now put out a fairly accurate picture. Just about everything is 1080p now too, and prices are lower than ever.
Value is unquestionably a lot better today than it has ever been. But quality has suffered at the high end - there really isn't a high-end any more. The top-tier Panasonic sets are probably the best we have today (though not to my taste) but I would never call them a high-end set in the way that the old Kuros and Sony XBRs were.

I am happy to have purchased one of the last truly high end displays before they disappeared and were replaced with edge-lit LCDs and cheap plasmas.
Even my HX900 which has better-than-CRT contrast performance (better black levels than the Kuros even) still doesn't put out an image as good as my old CRTs - I really do miss them, and have recently been thinking about trying to source a Sony CRT again.
I don't miss their small size though, and ended up having to make the switch to a flat panel when I was no longer able to have my sets repaired or find suitable replacements on the second-hand market.

But even looking forward to OLEDs, Sony's PVM-2541 OLED monitor - a $5000+ 25" broadcast monitor - still has much longer image persistence than a CRT did, and thus, worse motion handling: http://i.imgur.com/mKhbiKK.jpg
Realistically though, unless you have money to blow, OLEDs are not going to be affordable for at least another 3-4 years, so I wouldn't let them affect your buying decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Never owned a Kuro. I did briefly own a Sharp Elite which measured pretty close.
I always thought it was a mistake for them to not shut off the local dimming zones completely like the Sony sets do.
The Kuros did not have as deep a black level as the Sharp Elite, if I remember correctly. (I certainly wasn't happy with the "gray" black level in a dark room compared to CRT)
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

I have the w900a but am looking to return it because the picture quality is weak compared to my old U50 plasma. I used impulse mode a lot when I was gaming because it dramatically made motion smoother. It dimmed the picture, but the smoother motion was amazing. Better then plasma.
Just wondering, what about the W900 picture quality is "weak" compared to your older plasma? Unfortunately you do have to compromise in some area when buying a television today.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97
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^Most of the Kuros can match the Sharp Elite on full black but it requires some proprietary voodoo (or serious DIY'ing) via the service menu. D-Nice has managed to procure levels around that of the Sharp Elite on even the 60" panels. It's a shame that the means to get there is so elusive but for a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Never owned a Kuro. I did briefly own a Sharp Elite which measured pretty close. When viewing in a bat-cave, my calibrated 34" Sony XBR CRT killed it when displaying a full field black. It was so dark, I've had times where my TV would literally stay on for days on an unused input before I realized I forgot to turn it off.

Now the CRT will lose to a plasma when it comes to displaying black and white simultaneously. They have horrible ANSI contrast and the blacks appear to float up the more white is displayed at the same time. They also often had bad geometry, convergence, focus, color-uniformity, etc...and a limited size. Nothing is perfect.
True enough, I just think many will find the PQ benefits of today's panels as a suitable replacement for the ole' CRT.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Most of the Kuros can match the Sharp Elite on full black but it requires some proprietary voodoo (or serious DIY'ing) via the service menu.
Yeah - I wonder how well those sets hold up once the phosphors start aging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

True enough, I just think many will find the PQ benefits of today's panels as a suitable replacement for the ole' CRT.
Which is a damn shame.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97
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Define aging. wink.gif These adjustments have been made for over a year now with no reported ill effects, yet.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Define aging. wink.gif These adjustments have been made for over a year now with no reported ill effects, yet.
Losing sensitivity, which requires the panel to compensate, and may now be out of tolerance due to the reduced black level.
I seem to recall this happening when people were changing the panel driving values on other plasmas years ago. (before the Kuros)
Aesir5's Avatar Aesir5
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I was forced into buying a new TV this year due to my 61" Samsung LED DLP television dying on me (so much for the big sticker that Samsung put on the store model claiming 50,000 hours!!!!!!), so I was rudely thrust into the world of TV reviews and more research than I want to spend on TV's anytime in the near future. From what I can tell (and lucky for me), it seems to be the best time to buy a TV. There are great options out there, and many models that are supposedly 'the best ever.' Personally, I picked up a Panasonic VT60, and am hoping it will last well into the pricing drop on OLED or whatever big jump they make over the coming years. No matter what I bought, I was taking a quantum leap from my DLP, so hopefully it will be the same next time around.
HDTVChallenged's Avatar HDTVChallenged
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Aside: Can CRT go blacker than the last generation Kuro (I've seen as low as 0.0001 ftL with the special tweak, perhaps lower when it comes to the panels D-Nice has owned)? I think there's a bit of a fiction here because many CRT panels were not completely glow-free either.

The thing to keep in mind wrt the much worshiped holy black level of the CRT, is that in most consumer sets, that black level was achieved at the expense of any reasonably consistent gamma response below 25% stimulus (which is about the darkest level that calibrators even bothered to dial in the grey point, never mind that gamma was pretty much an afterthought.) Furthermore, black levels were often intentionally made to "float" in order to increase perceived contrast ratios.

If one were to actually approach the calibration of a typical consumer grade CRT TV of the mid 90's using the same techniques and meters that we use on flat panels today, you'd probably would be *shocked* ... *shocked* at the resulting black levels. Dealers choice: a) Inky Blacks (High Contrast) or b) Consistent gamma curve (actual shadow details.) Although, I suppose you could "cheat" and have both by using some kind of very expensive video processor. wink.gif
Mark Rejhon's Avatar Mark Rejhon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Although, I suppose you could "cheat" and have both by using some kind of very expensive video processor. wink.gif
The HOLO3DGRAPH PCI card, that I worked on with Immersive Inc, had a programmable 10bit LUT, which I created a video equalizer for, so you could create a custom gamma curve customized to a display (even with an "S" curve, if you needed). That was actually about ten years ago!
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

The thing to keep in mind wrt the much worshiped holy black level of the CRT, is that in most consumer sets, that black level was achieved at the expense of any reasonably consistent gamma response below 25% stimulus (which is about the darkest level that calibrators even bothered to dial in the grey point, never mind that gamma was pretty much an afterthought.)
I wouldn't say you were giving up consistency, but you were certainly giving up accurate gamma reproduction. Still, many people liked their CRTs set up that way, and the floating black level meant that you didn't lose as much shadow detail as you might expect, when set up like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Furthermore, black levels were often intentionally made to "float" in order to increase perceived contrast ratios.
I think that was just inherent to the displays and their limited ANSI contrast, rather than being intentional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Although, I suppose you could "cheat" and have both by using some kind of very expensive video processor. wink.gif
I wouldn't call it cheating. You can get very good results using any device that gives you control over the LUTs. (I used a VideoEQ processor, which was relatively inexpensive) This allowed you to set black level so that the CRT turned off with black, but still displayed all shadow details.

I actually found that you generally wanted to set up a CRT so that it was just on when displaying black, rather than completely off, because if it's completely off you get awful phosphor trailing when bright objects move over a black background.

They definitely weren't ideal, and I think you are right that some people would be surprised at how CRTs look if they compared them to a modern HDTV. But I still miss the deep black level, motion handling capabilities, low latency, and the analog nature of the picture.
My HX900 bests a CRT in almost every way, and is one of the few displays which can actually do true black, with CRT-like contrast, but there's just something missing.

And the Kuros are even further from a CRT. I don't care how accurate the picture is, if the display can't actually do a fade-to-black correctly, I'm left disappointed every single time.
Supermans's Avatar Supermans
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I disagree with the premise of this whole thread. It is actually one of the best times in history to buy a large 64 inch plasma at very reasonable price. I just purchased a Samsung PN64F8500 plasma and can highly reccomend it as a great value for the quality you are getting. For a panel of the future like OLED to be just as large and sell for the same price will be many years down the road. I can understand this thread if a model was being announced at a competitive price to be released next year for example, then it would be prudent to wait. However three or more years away for a reasonable price means todays plasma technology is the way to go for the highest picture quality for the price. Yes, I do see that gamers would likely be better off not choosing a plasma, however those fast twitch gamers will never be happy with anything less than a zero latency CRT anyways. I for one can't play Virtua Fighter 4 on anything but a CRT, however I still have my CRT for that. So all in all my opinion is this thread is simply not true based on the fact that 4K sets are twice the price over plasma's and there is little content in 4k to take advantage. Furthermore OLED's that are gimickly curved and also twice the price do not make a good buy either. So if you are in the market for a new TV, look no further and you can enjoy an excellent 2013 model plasma like my F8500 and be set for the next five years when this thread might actually make sense. Also, you can take full advantage of 1080p when sitting 9 feet away of a 64 inch 1080p plasma where with a 4K HDTV you would need to double the size to see the benefits at 9 feet while viewing 4K content. In five years time we may have just as much 4K content as blurays today, and at that point the prices may be low and every HDTV may even offer the upgrade standard. However until then, 1080p is plenty good for 99% of all homes.
HDTVChallenged's Avatar HDTVChallenged
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I think that was just inherent to the displays and their limited ANSI contrast, rather than being intentional.

There was a small portion of float that was "inherent" due to power supply fluctuation and the resulting fluctuation in "black level retention." Then CE manufacturers decided to try and turn a negative into a positive and started concocting various "black level expansion" schemes. By the mid to late 90's just about *every* CRT TV used this "feature" even if it wasn't in the user menu ... most people didn't even realize it was there ... even worse, in most cases, you couldn't turn it off (much like ABL on Plasmas.)

After much trial and error, and spelunking through the service menus on my old Sony Trinitron (non XBR,) and Panasonic "Superflat," I eventually found registers that controlled the amount of "BL expansion" aka "intentionally poor DC restoration/regulation" being applied. In the case of the Sony, the difference was so huge that the "Full Luminance half screen version of the pluge pattern" actually worked for setting the black level (+/- a click or two.) On the Sony, it was a simple on/off switch, in the Panny there was actually a "range" from "fully off" to "not-so-fully-off." Of course, both of these sets also had stratospherically high color temps OOTB, along with completely hosed color decoder setups to "compensate" for the stratospheric color temp.

I never found a way to defeat this "feature" on my HD CRT RPTV, all I could do was find a "reasonable" compromise between gamma and inky black by using the "brightness" control.

PS: Personally, I find that accurate gamma is more important than inky blacks. YMMV.

PPS: I'm not trying to prosecute CRT technology here, I'm just trying to point out that our fond memories of our old inky black CRT based TVs may be based upon a faulty premise. wink.gif
sooke's Avatar sooke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

The HOLO3DGRAPH PCI card, that I worked on with Immersive Inc, had a programmable 10bit LUT, which I created a video equalizer for, so you could create a custom gamma curve customized to a display (even with an "S" curve, if you needed). That was actually about ten years ago!

Why/when would you want to use an S curve for gamma? I see this as an option on my zt60 and have been curious about it. What does it do for you that your normal ski jump gamma curve doesn't?

Thanks.
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