Will the new OLED display 4:4:4 without any issues and will content providers (4k blu-rays) give us at least 4:2:2? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 09-10-2013, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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thoughts? comments? now that OLED is at our doorsteps... it would be silly to have "infinite black" but no source material absolutely except professional uncompressed footage to fully view more color depths.

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post #2 of 56 Old 09-11-2013, 09:23 AM
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I believe there is absolutely 0 chance that 4:4:4 would not be supported.  (EDIT to clarify: supported by the TV.  IMO Content is going to be 4:2:0 for quite some time.)

 

BTW, it's not color depth related...it's the amount of chroma information actually used spatially.  Think of it as a reduction in spatial resolution for color only.  This takes advantage of the color and luma sensitivities within the eye (rod vs. cone sensitivity & density).


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post #3 of 56 Old 09-11-2013, 10:18 AM
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The only ''improvements'' till 2020 will probably be OLED TVs and 4K.
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post #4 of 56 Old 09-12-2013, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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OLED gives us the ability to view more colors... except all our contents don't have it.

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post #5 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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is it apathy or is this not a real concern of AV enthusiasts? i know the way content is encoded can be improved, even if everyone went to 10bit or 12bit, it will be better than the current 8bit

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post #6 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post

is it apathy or is this not a real concern of AV enthusiasts? i know the way content is encoded can be improved, even if everyone went to 10bit or 12bit, it will be better than the current 8bit

 

Yep---a LOT better.  If they don't add bits here, it'll be a shame.  You get quite a bit of contouring from 8 bit by going from one subtle shade of a hue to another that isn't too far away.  There just aren't enough levels (256 from extreme to extreme).  10 bits, even the crocked 10 bits that (say) Sony tries to manage by upscaling (via their "HD Reality Enhancer") look much better (1024 levels).  It's half of the Sony CREAS thing.


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post #7 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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ok that makes the two of us tgm2014.

what i don't really get is avs folks who have many many pages on 4k, ultra HD this and 3D that, and all these newer awesome definition stuff... but totally neglect the fact that most of the contents we possess today are all still 8bit!!!! i wished they did 4:4:4 all the way back in the HDTV and built it into blu-ray.

instead... we are left with content that needs to catchup quite a bit. as far as i know, even the newer 4k specs currently being 'talked' about by content providers are still ignorant of the color depths. all people talk about is resolution... not realizing there's a heck of a lot more going on in there than just pixels... lumens, colors, grayscales, so many other things that need to improve instead of just pixels. if we get 12 or 16bit 1080p, i will actually be happy with that!!!!

why isn't there an uprising!! biggrin.gif

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post #8 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post

ok that makes the two of us tgm2014.

what i don't really get is avs folks who have many many pages on 4k, ultra HD this and 3D that, and all these newer awesome definition stuff... but totally neglect the fact that most of the contents we possess today are all still 8bit!!!! i wished they did 4:4:4 all the way back in the HDTV and built it into blu-ray.

instead... we are left with content that needs to catchup quite a bit. as far as i know, even the newer 4k specs currently being 'talked' about by content providers are still ignorant of the color depths. all people talk about is resolution... not realizing there's a heck of a lot more going on in there than just pixels... lumens, colors, grayscales, so many other things that need to improve instead of just pixels. if we get 12 or 16bit 1080p, i will actually be happy with that!!!!

why isn't there an uprising!! biggrin.gif

 

Well, before the pitchforks, let's clarify something first.  I'm not sure I'm following you on the depth and "4:4:4" reference being used together.  We're hoping for increased bit depth, but you're raising chroma subsampling.

 

The color depth (8 bits / 10 bits, etc.) isn't chroma subsampling (4:2:0 used in BD and DVD, for instance).  You can have 14 bit color on 4:2:0....it's not directly related.  Chroma subsampling is a spatial reduction in resolution in color only, because we're less motion and positionally sensitive to color than raw luminescence.  And 4:2:0 works really well for video.  (Just not for computer graphics).  And if you get right down to it, I have no problem with video being broadcast in 4:2:0....the luminance is bit for bit at the resolution and the color is hacked in half in each direction---the impact is negligible and you leave more bandwidth making depth and overall resolution increases more likely.  You can get a sense of the data demand reduction: (4+2+0) / (4+4+4), or half the bandwidth, the first "4" being an arbitrary reference point for Luma.

 

Color depth can be thought of as the number of shades per any one color of the pixels (regardless of how it's spatially compressed).  2^bitdepth, yielding 256, 1024, 4096, for 8, 10, and 12 bits (etc.)

 

The Sony diagram is employing both of these ideas, but they're separate in concept.


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post #9 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger 
ok that makes the two of us tgm2014.

what i don't really get is avs folks who have many many pages on 4k, ultra HD this and 3D that, and all these newer awesome definition stuff... but totally neglect the fact that most of the contents we possess today are all still 8bit!!!! i wished they did 4:4:4 all the way back in the HDTV and built it into blu-ray.

instead... we are left with content that needs to catchup quite a bit. as far as i know, even the newer 4k specs currently being 'talked' about by content providers are still ignorant of the color depths. all people talk about is resolution...not realizing there's a heck of a lot more going on in there than just pixels... lumens, colors, grayscales, so many other things that need to improve instead of just pixels. if we get 12 or 16bit 1080p, i will actually be happy with that!!!!

why isn't there an uprising!! biggrin.gif
Joe Kane recently made some comments about that
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1480263/joe-kane-explains-the-need-for-a-new-uhd-video-system
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post #10 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Joe Kane recently made some comments about that
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1480263/joe-kane-explains-the-need-for-a-new-uhd-video-system

 

I still want to see what Netflix is going to do regarding 4K, more so than ever now:  Last night I saw my first Netflix movie (part of it really), and MAN is their PQ terrible.  I don't know if they've throttled it down, but I have a 15Mbps FIOS connection nominally, and the world survives by buffering anyway so I have no idea "what they're thinking".  Good grief.  THAT'S their idea of what 2K is supposed to look like?


Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Unless, of course, it's to keep someone from creating a phone video in portrait mode, in which case it's a pretty good first step. Portrait mooks: KNOCK IT OFF.
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post #11 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 03:10 PM
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I don't think you realize what 4:4:4 chroma is.
And it would be absolutely wasteful to encode video using 4:4:4. With the bitrates we are currently limited to, you get much better video quality encoding at 4:2:0.

I do agree that we need to at least move to 10-bit native sources though.
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post #12 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 

I still want to see what Netflix is going to do regarding 4K, more so than ever now:  Last night I saw my first Netflix movie (part of it really), and MAN is their PQ terrible.  I don't know if they've throttled it down, but I have a 15Mbps FIOS connection nominally, and the world survives by buffering anyway so I have no idea "what they're thinking".  Good grief.  THAT'S their idea of what 2K is supposed to look like?
I do not download movies and i do not watch em on cable or satellite so i do not know how that would look (i got an idea though). You might wanna try blu-ray/DVD smile.gif
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I still want to see what Netflix is going to do regarding 4K, more so than ever now:  Last night I saw my first Netflix movie (part of it really), and MAN is their PQ terrible.  I don't know if they've throttled it down, but I have a 15Mbps FIOS connection nominally, and the world survives by buffering anyway so I have no idea "what they're thinking".  Good grief.  THAT'S their idea of what 2K is supposed to look like?
If you haven't already, give VUDU (HDX quality) a go to cleanse that nastiness from your system. tongue.gif
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post #14 of 56 Old 09-17-2013, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I still want to see what Netflix is going to do regarding 4K, more so than ever now:  Last night I saw my first Netflix movie (part of it really), and MAN is their PQ terrible.  I don't know if they've throttled it down, but I have a 15Mbps FIOS connection nominally, and the world survives by buffering anyway so I have no idea "what they're thinking".  Good grief.  THAT'S their idea of what 2K is supposed to look like?

Watch Netflix all the time on a 5 year old Panasonic plasma and the movie quality is terrific. I always select 1080p high def movies and assume you did as well. They also now have a "super" high def group of movies. On a 65 inch set you can actually notice the difference. (even better than regular high def) I assume they are doing a higher bit rate like the old "superbit dbd"s had. I actually have a slightly slower Mbps than yours so I have no idea why we have such a different viewing experience.
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post #15 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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yes sorry about the mixed concept... always in a hurry when writing these, as i'm pressed for time always. but my point is why aren't we raising a ruckus about better colors in general when it comes to content being delivered to us whether streamed, burned, or whichever way (even holographic in the future wink.gif.

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post #16 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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&yes, i was thinking more along these lines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth

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post #17 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.techhive.com/article/171223/10_bit_color.html
^i want 68BILLION colors vs. 16.7mil cool.gif

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post #18 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 06:58 AM
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I too am hoping future displays have an increased Color Depth. Even today there aren't that many 10-bit Monitors which leads to higher prices. And the dirty little secret about many of those monitors is that they aren't even true 10-bit, rather they are 8-bit + FRC monitors.

The good news is that most 4K panels seem to support 10 bit (at least 8-bit + FRC maybe some are true 10-bit) so we a slowly moving forward. Unfortunately, 4K 60p 10-bit RGB 4:4:4 is just not possible with HDMI 2.0 as there is not enough bandwidth. It is possible with DisplayPort 1.2 though. However, computer use aside, 4K 23.976p 10-bit 4:2:2 and 10-bit 4:2:0 shouldn't be a problem.

I am pinning my hopes on NHK, they are making their 8K UHD implementation require 12-bits so at the very least Japanese built TVs should have 12-bit support eventually. They are targeting live tests for 2016 so it may be a while.

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I too am hoping future displays have an increased Color Depth. Even today there aren't that many 10-bit Monitors which leads to higher prices. And the dirty little secret about many of those monitors is that they aren't even true 10-bit, rather they are 8-bit + FRC monitors.

The good news is that most 4K panels seem to support 10 bit (at least 8-bit + FRC maybe some are true 10-bit)

 

FRC produces a good enough result for now, but I don't think any of them are truly 10bit natively.  Are they?  I'm mostly certain even now they're employing the temporal dithering/frame technology, or the similar technology to what Sony uses, but now you've got me wondering.

 

Quote:
I am pinning my hopes on NHK, they are making their 8K UHD implementation require 12-bits so at the very least Japanese built TVs should have 12-bit support eventually. They are targeting live tests for 2016 so it may be a while.

 

 

A native 12 bits?  Now THAT would be Aladeen!  But 10 is certainly a welcome tower over 8, so I'll not push my hopes.  How will Netflix make room for that I wonder.....chroma subsample down to 16:1:1?   :)


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post #20 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 07:32 AM
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FRC produces a good enough result for now, but I don't think any of them are truly 10bit natively.

I wouldn't be surprised if no 4K panels are true 10-bit. It is something that isn't really advertised by panel manufacturers as 10-bit sounds much higher than 8-bit + FRC. Basically the only way to find out is through sites like TFTCentral and PRAD who do extensive display testing. There are certainly some non-4K true 10-bit panels out there, though they seem to be in the minority compared to 8-bit + FRC panels.
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so I'll not push my hopes.

No need for hope, NHK has reasonable, achievable timelines. It will happen. We just need lots and lots of patience.
On the plus side, the latest range extension drafts of HEVC have 12-bit profiles so they are forward thinking as well.

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post #21 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 09:25 AM
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On the plus side, the latest range extension drafts of HVEC have 12-bit profiles so they are forward thinking as well.

 

You mean HEVC?  On a humorous note: I've seen people refer to this as HVEC (misspelled) a few times.  I even sound it out in my head that way.  I don't know why.


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post #22 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 09:50 AM
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One could say high video efficiency coding instead of high efficiency video coding, there is were it mixup probably comes from.
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post #23 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 10:12 AM
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:)  Or HVAC  (heating, ventilation, and air conditioning)...


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post #24 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 11:41 AM
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You mean HEVC?

Yes I do. Oops. Updated.
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I even sound it out in my head that way.

I do too, haha, which probably why I wrote it out that way.

I would use H.265 but it seems like everyone refers to it as HEVC.
Once Apple starts calling it H.265 then everyone will probably call it that, similar to what happened with AVC and H.264.

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post #25 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
You mean HEVC?

Yes I do. Oops. Updated.
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I even sound it out in my head that way.

I do too, haha, which probably why I wrote it out that way.

I would use H.265 but it seems like everyone refers to it as HEVC.
Once Apple starts calling it H.265 then everyone will probably call it that, similar to what happened with AVC and H.264.

 

Is it officially H.265 yet anyway?  If it is, use the number.  If it isn't, ...., use the number anyway.  We're up to our friggen armpits in stupid acroynums.  I call it D.U.M.B. (stands for "very baDly Understood and poorly naMed acronyms ... B")


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post #26 of 56 Old 09-18-2013, 11:51 AM
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Yup it is.

http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265

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http://www.itu.int/net/pressoffice/press_releases/2013/01.aspx#.UjojjtLWNBE

Formally = Recommendation ITU-T H.265 or ISO/IEC 23008-2

Informally = High Efficiency Video Coding




*its the product of collaboration between the ITU Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) and the ISO/IEC Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG).
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post #28 of 56 Old 10-02-2013, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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do the RED cams capture in 4:4:4? my fear with digital filmmaking is once you record it it will forever be in that state.

so Star Wars ep1 will be stuck in whatever they captured... low-res and awful color. no that anyone cares... but this was one of the fears/concerns about movie preservation. technology superceding the raw content files.

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post #29 of 56 Old 10-02-2013, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post

do the RED cams capture in 4:4:4? my fear with digital filmmaking is once you record it it will forever be in that state.
so Star Wars ep1 will be stuck in whatever they captured... low-res and awful color. no that anyone cares... but this was one of the fears/concerns about movie preservation. technology superceding the raw content files.
Looks like they're single sensor cameras using a bayer filter. The good thing is that they are at least shooting raw, unlike a lot of other digital cameras, so you could in theory go back to the files in future with a better raw processing algorithm and get improved results.

It's interesting to see how much improvement there has been as Adobe has refined their camera raw engine in Lightroom, considerably reducing noise, increasing fine detail, and increasing dynamic range with better highlight recovery techniques.
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post #30 of 56 Old 10-02-2013, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
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do the RED cams capture in 4:4:4? my fear with digital filmmaking is once you record it it will forever be in that state.
so Star Wars ep1 will be stuck in whatever they captured... low-res and awful color. no that anyone cares... but this was one of the fears/concerns about movie preservation. technology superceding the raw content files.
Looks like they're single sensor cameras using a bayer filter. The good thing is that they are at least shooting raw, unlike a lot of other digital cameras, so you could in theory go back to the files in future with a better raw processing algorithm and get improved results.

It's interesting to see how much improvement there has been as Adobe has refined their camera raw engine in Lightroom, considerably reducing noise, increasing fine detail, and increasing dynamic range with better highlight recovery techniques.

 

"Raw", meaning they're capturing the bayer pattern itself?  That seems very weird, but you're right in that it gives you the best the camera can possibly give you.


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