Calibrating Leo Laporte's Samsung KN55S9C OLED TV - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 87 Old 09-27-2013, 09:17 PM
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I've finally seen one, and I have to say that just watching it in movie mode is incredibly impressive. I did notice that the motion was not as good as my plasma but it blew every other TV away on all other accounts!
Frame it's built into is super cheesy though biggrin.gif:D

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post #62 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 07:10 AM
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Hope to be able to put this baby through its paces on Monday.
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post #63 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

$99 is a great offer, but the S9 is still not on display at VE, so I doubt they know for sure. BTW, I have visited the store and Robert Zohn is a fantastic person!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I have been waiting to check it out at Robert's store but he needs to be able to get one first, at least one he can actually unbox and display rather than ship out right away.

Looks like they arrived as I had a very nice demo today at Robert's store this morning. He said it's not calibrated yet, but the image quality was excellent! Reference Blu-ray discs unleashes and exploits the pq capability of the Samsung's OLED TV we saw today. Great demo!

Anyone nearby a showroom that knows how to properly set this TV up should get a demo.
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post #64 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 01:53 PM
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I will be there on Monday morning. Couldn't get to NY today.
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post #65 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 02:32 PM
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What are the rules on posting screen shots and video on AVS? There's the Samsung demo video and the calibration here by Scott, but hardly any footage of actual movies anywhere. Are we allowed to post movie clips on the OLED display?
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post #66 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I've finally seen one, and I have to say that just watching it in movie mode is incredibly impressive. I did notice that the motion was not as good as my plasma but it blew every other TV away on all other accounts!
Frame it's built into is super cheesy though biggrin.gif:D

With the super slim designs heading our way, I think we'll be seeing more and more frames from different brands, some even in pastel colors and odd designs. The makers have to make these things stand out some how.
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post #67 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 03:23 PM
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Hope this new tech works out. I'll check back in 5 yrs from now.

Just about ready to check in on 3D soon smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #68 of 87 Old 09-28-2013, 05:08 PM
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Can the following be checked out:
Does the OLED have the Dual Input settings? ie: Plug in a Computer into, lets say, HDMI 1, and you get one set of settings. But plug in a Blu-ray into the same HDMI 1 - totally different set of settings! Found this on my LGs, and found they were actually affecting each other. Zeroed out the Computer set of settings. Now the Video calibrations are much improved, more stable and actually take on a glassless 3D appearance. (Note to those who calibrate their TVs with Computers through the HDMI Input, then install a Video Input afterwards - calibrated settings no longer there except for a Computer Input.)
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post #69 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 08:20 AM
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We just pust this tv up in my store `Magnolia` and it is fantastic the blacks are black and the colors are fantastic if you have a chance go see this tv..
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post #70 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by upsfeedr View Post

We just pust this tv up in my store `Magnolia` and it is fantastic the blacks are black and the colors are fantastic if you have a chance go see this tv..
For testing motion blur, are you able to temporarily connect a computer to the TV, and view the Panning Map Test at www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=toronto-map.png ?

I'm quite interested to know the result for this test. It would take a display with approximately 4ms of motion blur (MPRT measurement standard) in order to be able to just about read the map labels, and preferably under 2ms of motion blur (MPRT measurement standard).

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post #71 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

For testing motion blur, are you able to temporarily connect a computer to the TV, and view the Panning Map Test at www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=toronto-map.png ?

I'm quite interested to know the result for this test. It would take a display with approximately 4ms of motion blur (MPRT measurement standard) in order to be able to just about read the map labels, and preferably under 2ms of motion blur (MPRT measurement standard).

See my posting #68 - Computer settings on the HDMI Input are NOT the same as Inputing a Video Input on the same HDMI such as a Blu-ray player.
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post #72 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 01:53 PM
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See my posting #68 - Computer settings on the HDMI Input are NOT the same as Inputing a Video Input on the same HDMI such as a Blu-ray player.
I know.
But I am not talking about picture settings.
I am asking about about benchmarking display motion blur
(separately of just benchmarking ghosting effects, like Raymond Soneira did.)

Right now, we're isolating the motion blur down to display own sample-and-hold (e.g. as explained by scientific papers). It is still quite fully relevant, as the sample-and-hold effect (a known major problem in past OLD's) determines the absolute floor for the minimum motion blur created by the display's own sample-and-hold characteristic.

...Video mode motion blur benchmarking -- One can also use certain TestUFO benchmarks this (e.g. panning photo tests) in video mode, interpolation enabled if you wish, rather than Game Mode, to get a representation of what guaranteed minimum motion blur that the display would create from a regular video source in your favourite motion mode (treating the computer input as a regular video).
...Game mode motion blur benchmarking -- For benchmarking computer based motion blur, use Game Mode / PC Mode -- People do use computers, consoles, etc, with HDTV's, too. Computer/game based material moves faster than video and movie material, and motion is often faster, so leading to more opportunity to noticing motion blur. Also, some other people, like me and thousands of Blur Busters readers, are very sensitive to motion blur (e.g. the videophiles of motion blur, like there are other people who are audiophiles, or people who are videophiles about contrast ratio or about color gamut). For some people, they see the motion blur more quickly than they see the colors. (Even if they're not color blind -- remember, about 8% of population is color blind) Just like colors sensitivity varies in population, motion blur sensitivity varies in the population too as well, and some of us, are quite interested to know about this.

Another thing I am curious about, is the black frame insertion feature of some of the OLED's -- what the black frame insertion duty cycle is. (50%:50% black frame insertion only reduces motion blur by 50%). And also whether adjusting brightness would adjust the strobe length of the black frame insertion feature (e.g. dimmer picture leading to better motion clarity). It has already been proven that mathematically, the guaranteed minimum amount of motion blur is dictated by the length of the sample-and-hold. Usually, source-based motion blur (e.g. softness in video and movies) is the dominant factor, but when playing video games and computer use, or even simple things like scrolling, the sample-and-hold effect (as seen at www.testufo.com/eyetracking ) is the dominant cause of motion blur on many displays. It is relevant in the era where people increasingly connect computers and consoles to HDTV's today, as such material pushes the motion blur limits of displays more than video-based material does.

So I re-iterate the question again: Can someone do some real *scientific* motion blur benchmarks on these OLED displays, please? BTW -- you don't have to use my tests, by the way. As long as the motion blur measurement is a measurement that takes into account of sample-and-hold -- such as via MPRT scientific measurement standard (pursuit camera technique). Or is the manufacturer too afraid to let people actually measure motion blur on material (games, computers) that's more demanding than mere video?
wink.gif

Thanks,
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post #73 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 02:29 PM
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Mark,

In your context for computer/game use, there is really no point in measuring the Samsung motion blur. It will be just as blurry as any decent quality 60hz LCD. I've tested it several times and that's what it looked like in "Game Mode". All the reviews agree.

The BFI and motion interpolation modes are not available in "Game Mode" so there is no point in even testing them in the other modes which have 100-200 ms input lag. While these features help reduce blur, they are not really needed for the type of content people typically watch in non-game modes.

I'd be more curious about the LG results for blur and input lag.
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post #74 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 02:35 PM
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The BFI and motion interpolation modes are not available in "Game Mode" so there is no point in even testing them in the other modes which have 100-200 ms input lag. While these features help reduce blur, they are not really needed for the type of content people typically watch in non-game modes.
Good point, and perhaps answers some questions, but it does create new questions.

About BFI -- That said, BFI should only add, at most, one frame of lag (if interpolation is disabled). There's no reason why manufacturers can't add low-lag BFI to their displays. Personally, I'm shocked if an interpolation-free BFI added more than one frame of lag. Unless interpolation is force-bundled with strobing (which was often the case in the past, too) as a means of increasing the flicker frequency (since higher flicker frequencies are less bothersome to most eyes).

About non-computer-use benchmarking -- Even for video, with motion enhancing modes, especially since sports motion is still fast enough to show motion blur bottlenecks in many displays. Properly done, TestUFO Panning scenery tests actually works well with interpolation modes, to represent the minimum motion blur floor that will be seen during things like sports video motion, etc. Like whether or not you're able to read names/numbers on football uniforms while a camera is panning very fast sideways in a football field, etc. (assuming the camera shutter was fast enough to not be the motion blur limiting factor in the motion blur chain). Display innovations need to keep progressing here.

Thanks,
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post #75 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 03:41 PM
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We just pust this tv up in my store `Magnolia` and it is fantastic the blacks are black and the colors are fantastic if you have a chance go see this tv..

Where? Which Magnolia stores have it on display?
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post #76 of 87 Old 09-29-2013, 08:37 PM
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The magnolia store in culver city Los Angeles I believe has it along with the LG OLED and the 84inch samsung 4k this is the design store. In the best buy
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post #77 of 87 Old 10-01-2013, 05:22 AM
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Finally, I got my delivery on 9/26. I have watched 4:3, 1.85:1 and 2.35:1 material. The image quality just floors me. I am also amazed at out good the internal speakers are for their size. An amazing TV.
- Scott B
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post #78 of 87 Old 10-01-2013, 05:35 AM
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Scott B, start your own owners thread.
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post #79 of 87 Old 10-02-2013, 10:54 AM
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post #80 of 87 Old 10-06-2013, 11:27 AM
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Scott - A million thanks for such an informative thread.

For Leo Laporte and his Screen Savers - Amaze Yourself. I still have an autographed photo you gave me on your Arlington TX visit with ZD TV...many moons ago!
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post #81 of 87 Old 10-07-2013, 04:06 PM
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I think the thing that concerns me most about this is the motion. I haven't looked at an OLED TV in ages but I'm one of the people who always notices the jittery motion on LCD TVs. I was at a specialty shop a couple of months ago and mentioned I was considering the Samsung and Panasonic plasma. He said he had those and they were nice but he had to show me his favorite TV. I looked at it and looked at him and said no thanks, I don't want LCD. He asked what made me think it was LCD and I said the motion sucks. His assistance shook his head and laughed at him as well. He said I don't notice it. I realize many people don't notice bad motion. For me it is annoying but for my best friend he says it makes him motion sick. Anyone here who notices plasma motion or CRT motion vs. LCD think OLED is OK? I'm really hoping it is but I'd like to know what your opinion is. If you think 120, 240, 480, 48,000 - whatever LCD fixes the issue, please don't think it does for everyone. While it is great for you that LCD motion looks fine, please be aware that for many of us it isn't. You could serve me a $2 bottle of wine or a $2,000 bottle of wine and I wouldn't know which tastes better but I assure you for some of us the motion of LCD still sucks. So I truly hope OLED motion is good but this article doesn't make it sound great.
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post #82 of 87 Old 10-08-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
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I think the thing that concerns me most about this is the motion. I haven't looked at an OLED TV in ages but I'm one of the people who always notices the jittery motion on LCD TVs.

Did you really mean "jittery" or would it be more accurate to say "blurry?"

LCDs aren't generally known for "jittery' motion (there's nothing inherent about LCD technology that would make motion "jittery.") Rather, LCDs are more often criticised for blurred motion, or when their frame-interpolation settings are turned on to compensate for the blurred motion, that processing takes on a "too smooth" motion that looks "too clear" to many people, for movies anyway which take on a video-type motion instead of a film-like motion.

If you've really seen jittery motion on LCDs, it's not a problem inherent to that technology. Probably some bad settings.

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post #83 of 87 Old 10-08-2013, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
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Did you really mean "jittery" or would it be more accurate to say "blurry?"

LCDs aren't generally known for "jittery' motion (there's nothing inherent about LCD technology that would make motion "jittery.") Rather, LCDs are more often criticised for blurred motion, or when their frame-interpolation settings are turned on to compensate for the blurred motion, that processing takes on a "too smooth" motion that looks "too clear" to many people, for movies anyway which take on a video-type motion instead of a film-like motion.

If you've really seen jittery motion on LCDs, it's not a problem inherent to that technology. Probably some bad settings.

I think the word I'm trying to describe is jumpy motion like a strobe light. It is a jerky motion. There is a lack of fluidity. I'll need to use a thesaurus if that isn't any clearer. There also seems to be residue between the scenes of motion between the starting point and the destination - like everything is on a green screen.
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post #84 of 87 Old 10-08-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

I think the word I'm trying to describe is jumpy motion like a strobe light. It is a jerky motion. There is a lack of fluidity. I'll need to use a thesaurus if that isn't any clearer. There also seems to be residue between the scenes of motion between the starting point and the destination - like everything is on a green screen.

You aren't describing any inherent quality of LCD displays that I can tell.

Are you sure the displays you are describing don't have their frame interpolation turned up high? That can cause some weird artifacts.

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post #85 of 87 Old 10-08-2013, 05:44 PM
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You aren't describing any inherent quality of LCD displays that I can tell.

Are you sure the displays you are describing don't have their frame interpolation turned up high? That can cause some weird artifacts.

I've seen them in my friends homes, I've seen them at crappy stores like best buy. I've seen them at client houses where they paid "experts" to tune them - not bb but AV installers who do very expensive homes in Malibu. I've seen them at places that are specialty shops for TVs and $25,000 projectors. Everywhere I go I can always spot the LCDs by motion. My friend actually gets nauseous from watching LCD TVs for too long. You may not notice it or think it is inherent but I can always spot an LCD without someone telling me it is an LCD.
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post #86 of 87 Old 10-09-2013, 12:11 AM
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You wanna see "crappy" stores, visit the few highend stores in New York City, like Stereo Exchange. They have some of the most expensive gear in one of the most dismal studios you'll ever see, which seems to be the trend among these shops. So if you're searching for fancy, esoteric electronics, by all means go to them. Best Buy stores are generally well kept, and when it comes to displays, they usually carry the same lines you'll find at upscale shops. The only difference between Best Buy and specialty stores, is that BB will offer you zero percent finance, while the other will laugh in your face.
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post #87 of 87 Old 10-10-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

I think the word I'm trying to describe is jumpy motion like a strobe light. It is a jerky motion. There is a lack of fluidity. I'll need to use a thesaurus if that isn't any clearer. There also seems to be residue between the scenes of motion between the starting point and the destination - like everything is on a green screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

You aren't describing any inherent quality of LCD displays that I can tell.
Are you sure the displays you are describing don't have their frame interpolation turned up high? That can cause some weird artifacts.

I understand what this person's LCD jitteriness may be caused by -- normally the jitteriness is muddied by slow pixel transitions (traditional LCD limitation), but modern LCD motion blur is no longer caused by pixel transitions. (Animation proof: www.testufo.com/eyetracking and the scientific references ...)

-- If interpolation is turned off & scanning backlight is turned off, then jitteriness can be caused by heightened sensitivity to 60fps strobing, much like 24fps strobing.
-- An LCD is inherently a sample-and-hold display, and some newer LCD's have very fast pixel transition times, e.g. less than 5 milliseconds.
-- When pixel transitions are only a few milliseconds, that's far less than 16.7ms cycle of a refresh. On faster LCD's, as the curves start to resemble cliffs, pixel transitions start to then behave more like a square wave (transition, pause, transition, pause, transition, pause), and the 60fps edge-strobing effect occurs on faster 60Hz LCD's for edge-strobing sensitive people. It's like 24fps strobing, but at a much higher speed.

An example of edge-strobing can be found at: www.testufo.com/framerates#count=3
This looks like regular blur on most 60Hz LCD's, but if you try to view this on a fast 1ms 60Hz TN LCD monitor, the 60fps animation starts to jitter more.

Sample-and-hold effect creates jitteriness during low frequencies, and perceived motion blur at higher frequencies (again, demonstration animation found at www.testufo.com/eyetracking ...) Usually low frequencies is "24fps" and high frequencies is "60fps", but sometimes people are sensitive to the jitteriness of "60fps", too! As some humans have better vision than others in certain aspects (e.g. clearer vision, or better motion perception, etc).

Solutions to LCD jitter found on fast-responding displays, is to reduce the sample-and-hold effect:
-- use higher refresh rate (e.g. 120Hz) and use good interpolation;
-- use a strobe backlight or scanning backlight during source framerates that matches refresh rate (benefits sports better than movies).

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon


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