LG 55EA9800 55" OLED Owner's thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 10:30 AM
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....with 4k pc games or 1080 ones upscaled? ....as upscaling 720 to 1080 introduces aliasing. I really thought that 1080 to 4k could look terrible under many circumstances. That was just my educated guess but I haven't seen any in action

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post #1172 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 10:44 AM
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I'm still playing with the picture options; true motion was great for sport and tv, but I'll see how I go with some films tonight.

Set Dejudder to around 3, and deblur to around 6 and you should have very good motion for movies, and no soap opera effect. The dejudder option is really great for films, and mostly gets rid of the annoying 24hz judder without the Soap Opera effect (or very minimal at a setting of 3) Some people like that Soap Opera effect, or Hobbit HFR look, and theres nothing wrong with that either.

When watching sports, or any video content, I jack up the motion settings and it's silky smooth.
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post #1173 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 10:55 AM
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For games/sports/regular tv I can see it, but why enable that stuff at all for 24p film?. I could be wrong, but isn't it not true 24p with those settings on as they "clone" frames and whatnot in order to achieve that smoother effect? 6 and 3 is pretty high, definitely looks like it csuses SOE to me.

24p motion is another of those tv things which ISNT a pet peeve for me though. on a good tv I don't really see much judder anyway. That said if you like SOE then no biggie, to each his own. Anybody can like what they want but it's not how the film was directed or intended to be viewed, so I just don't get the point of ever applying anything that alters native frames, which have been 24 per second since the dawn of the industry, to a movie you care about. You'd never see anything like that in a movie theater.

But this is another extremely divided subject among videophiles and there's no "correct" answer.

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post #1174 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 12:28 PM
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....with 4k pc games or 1080 ones upscaled? ....as upscaling 720 to 1080 introduces aliasing. I really thought that 1080 to 4k could look terrible under many circumstances. That was just my educated guess but I haven't seen any in action


PC games are rendered on the fly, so there isn't ever any upscaling. 4k is extremely impressive on a 32" monitor, but I do sit just under a metre away from it, so I can really see the benefit ;-)

 

The downside is that you need a really beefy PC.

 

Totally take the point on the motion settings, but this is my first high end tv, so I'm enjoying trying everything out. It's a massive step up from my old LCD.

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post #1175 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 01:22 PM
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....But if it's a 4k monitor there has to be upscaling or else the game would be windowed....is your pc powerful enough to render every game at native 4k? Wow if so

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post #1176 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 01:44 PM
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It's a massive step up from just about anything. What was your old lcd?

And yes of course try them out. Motion interpolation is a highly subjective debate

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post #1177 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Is there any reference to the issues you and Slacker are referring to in the backplane? If you are referring to burn-in (or uneven wear), is it a permanent effect or can it be reversed and/or disappear over time?

If it's a backplane issue, it should disappear over time.

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Any references / pointers to these TFR/Transistor/IGZO layer issues you and Slacker are referring to appreciated.

Google Retina iPad Mini image retention maybe?.

Thanks. Everything I found refers to an image retention problem that disappeared after a couple minutes: http://www.macrumors.com/2013/11/15/some-retina-ipad-minis-showing-image-retention-issues/

"Displays with image retention are not a new problem for Apple. The original Retina MacBook Pro displays demonstrated severe image persistence problems, with remnants or previously-displayed windows remaining visible on the screen for several minutes. It is important to note, however, that the image retention is temporary and not permanent like the burn-in seen with some plasma displays. "

I don't understand how this could be related to the BI/IR problem Vinnie and Palgue are reporting that apparently lasts for days or more (until it is 'erased' through color slides).

I also could not find any technical explanation of what causes this problem with IGZO displays in case you have any more pointers...

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Also, do you have an opinion on this subject of even color wear / uniform chroma output of this LG stacked OLED structure?

I do, but I'm not currently in a position to do more than I did in the other thread which is to say, "even though there's a book on Amazon with a lot of hand waving and some charts, until it can answer a really basic question, I'm pretty skeptical."

Skepticism is certainly warranted, but that being said, it looks more and more to me that the LG White OLED is just that, a White OLED rather than a r+g+b OLED as is shown in several pictures.

The White OLED appears to be composed of two layers, blue and yellow, and figure 4.12 does not show acceleration of the aging of the yellow OLED layer once it is stacked below a blue OLED layer, but rather show that the composite white OLED structure has a lifetime that is close to that of the yellow OLED layer alone (and actually a bit better than yellow). So the lifetime of blue appears to be dramatically extended when it is stacked with yellow in a white OLED structure rather than used alone as a blue OLED.

I'm having a tough time believing that LG would have licensed this technology from Kodak and invested in a $650M manufacturing plant to produce TVs based on this technology if the composite white OLED structure was unable to deliver the lifetime and color stability promised...

I don't understand how this two layer white OLED works either (in terms of extending the blue lifetime of blue alone), but frankly, I am more concerned about pixel failures in the field and this possible image retention / uneven wear problem than I am with color shift at the moment.

If all of the early owners are now going to start coddling their sets and only show full-screen content for the first 300 hours or so, it is just going to make it that much more difficult to uncover if there are real issues involved or not...
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post #1178 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Skepticism is certainly warranted, but that being said, it looks more and more to me that the LG White OLED is just that, a White OLED rather than a r+g+b OLED as is shown in several pictures.

Well, you're wrong. LG is absolutely, positively using a stacked OLED design. Whether it's R/G/B or Y/B hasn't been confirmed, though there is reason to believe it's R/G/B based on conversations several people have had. Either way, it's not white.
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The White OLED appears to be composed of two layers, blue and yellow,

Even if there are two layers, that's not a white OLED. Period.
Quote:
and figure 4.12 does not show acceleration of the aging of the yellow OLED layer once it is stacked below a blue OLED layer, but rather show that the composite white OLED structure has a lifetime that is close to that of the yellow OLED layer alone (and actually a bit better than yellow). So the lifetime of blue appears to be dramatically extended when it is stacked with yellow in a white OLED structure rather than used alone as a blue OLED.

I have no idea what figure 4.12 is.
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I'm having a tough time believing that LG would have licensed this technology from Kodak and invested in a $650M manufacturing plant to produce TVs based on this technology if the composite white OLED structure was unable to deliver the lifetime and color stability promised...

Well, believe what you want. Kodak had produced a grand total of zero OLED TVs ever. Since Sony showed off the XEL-1 years ago, LG has produced a grand total of well below 100,000 in multiple sizes. You give LG and Kodak a lot of credit they don't deserve.
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If all of the early owners are now going to start coddling their sets and only show full-screen content for the first 300 hours or so, it is just going to make it that much more difficult to uncover if there are real issues involved or not...

Owners can do whatever they want. They own the sets. And 300 hours isn't especially important. On the other hand, if the sets require coddling at all, they aren't really worth owning. There are plenty of LCDs out there you can do whatever you want with. TV should be a pleasure, not a pain. Between the complaining about the buzzing, the ABL, the image retention, etc. it's a wonder why every plasma owner here hasn't thrown their TV into a landfill already...

Again, I'm not even remotely giving up on OLED, I'm just saying the bar is clear: As painless as LCD and better on every picture-quality metric. The only places I can see it giving ground are (1) max brightness because, well, who cares (2) power consumption because, well, both are plenty good and (3) price, because it's the BMW/Mercedes of TV right now.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1179 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Skepticism is certainly warranted, but that being said, it looks more and more to me that the LG White OLED is just that, a White OLED rather than a r+g+b OLED as is shown in several pictures.

Well, you're wrong. LG is absolutely, positively using a stacked OLED design. Whether it's R/G/B or Y/B hasn't been confirmed, though there is reason to believe it's R/G/B based on conversations several people have had. Either way, it's not white.
Quote:
The White OLED appears to be composed of two layers, blue and yellow,

Even if there are two layers, that's not a white OLED. Period.
Quote:
and figure 4.12 does not show acceleration of the aging of the yellow OLED layer once it is stacked below a blue OLED layer, but rather show that the composite white OLED structure has a lifetime that is close to that of the yellow OLED layer alone (and actually a bit better than yellow). So the lifetime of blue appears to be dramatically extended when it is stacked with yellow in a white OLED structure rather than used alone as a blue OLED.

I have no idea what figure 4.12 is.
Quote:
I'm having a tough time believing that LG would have licensed this technology from Kodak and invested in a $650M manufacturing plant to produce TVs based on this technology if the composite white OLED structure was unable to deliver the lifetime and color stability promised...

Well, believe what you want. Kodak had produced a grand total of zero OLED TVs ever. Since Sony showed off the XEL-1 years ago, LG has produced a grand total of well below 100,000 in multiple sizes. You give LG and Kodak a lot of credit they don't deserve.
Quote:
If all of the early owners are now going to start coddling their sets and only show full-screen content for the first 300 hours or so, it is just going to make it that much more difficult to uncover if there are real issues involved or not...

Owners can do whatever they want. They own the sets. And 300 hours isn't especially important. On the other hand, if the sets require coddling at all, they aren't really worth owning. There are plenty of LCDs out there you can do whatever you want with. TV should be a pleasure, not a pain. Between the complaining about the buzzing, the ABL, the image retention, etc. it's a wonder why every plasma owner here hasn't thrown their TV into a landfill already...

Again, I'm not even remotely giving up on OLED, I'm just saying the bar is clear: As painless as LCD and better on every picture-quality metric. The only places I can see it giving ground are (1) max brightness because, well, who cares (2) power consumption because, well, both are plenty good and (3) price, because it's the BMW/Mercedes of TV right now.

Can't argue with anything you have written here - we are on the same page pretty much across the board. I'm prepared to give Kodak and LG a bit more benefit of the doubt than you are, but in the end skepticism is warranted and the results will speak for themselves once the data is in.

I'm also prepared to consider a blue+yellow 2-layer stacked OLED as a different animal than a r+g+b 3-layer OLED composed of the three primaries - if it is in fact a stack of R+G+B then my skepticism swings to being as high as yours (partly because what LG is doing can then have nothing to do with what has been published about the Kodak approach).

Figure 4.12 is on page 120 of the reference provided earlier: http://books.google.com/books?id=yLy07tnBZ90C&pg=PA117&dq=white+oled+%22color+stability%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=25Y8U-LxFcnw2gWT9IHQAg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=white%20oled%20%22color%20stability%22&f=false

p.s. didn't exactly throw my 65ZT60 into a landfill, but returned it to BB after having it for only a week this January in favor of returning to the lowly LG 55LW5600 LED/LCD that I've had since 2011...
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.

When I saw your post, I was going to ask you to please ask several of your guests to sit 85-degrees off-angle, but your post has since evaporated...

Enjoy your new toy tonight.
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post #1182 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 04:04 PM
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....But if it's a 4k monitor there has to be upscaling or else the game would be windowed....is your pc powerful enough to render every game at native 4k? Wow if so


Nope - PC games don't upscale unless you force them to. Everything is rendered native at 4k - I have 2 x 780Ti SLI - games look awesome!

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It's a massive step up from just about anything. What was your old lcd?

And yes of course try them out. Motion interpolation is a highly subjective debate

It was an old Toshiba Regza 46XF355D - functional and cheap!

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post #1184 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 04:31 PM
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....with 4k pc games or 1080 ones upscaled? ....as upscaling 720 to 1080 introduces aliasing. I really thought that 1080 to 4k could look terrible under many circumstances. That was just my educated guess but I haven't seen any in action

720p x 3 = 2160p
1080p x 2 = 2160p

Upscaling to 4k is really easy and wont introduce any artifacts. In fact 720p content should look better than it ever could on 1080p screens.

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post #1185 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Skepticism is certainly warranted, but that being said, it looks more and more to me that the LG White OLED is just that, a White OLED rather than a r+g+b OLED as is shown in several pictures.

Well, you're wrong. LG is absolutely, positively using a stacked OLED design. Whether it's R/G/B or Y/B hasn't been confirmed, though there is reason to believe it's R/G/B based on conversations several people have had. Either way, it's not white.
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The White OLED appears to be composed of two layers, blue and yellow,

Even if there are two layers, that's not a white OLED. Period.

 

There may be a new term for this in the future, but I don't believe that there has ever been a massively broad spectrum white OLED like fafrd suspects.  Such a device might be called a "true white OLED" or somesuch.  All things currently called "white OLEDs" are done with separately emitted component (B+Y, B+R+G) colors.

 

But folks want to make such a device.  Something like this hokey thing out from the University of Utah: they've got a polymer to the "not quite OLED" stage that emits several colors at once--->From the same single polymer layer.  They do it by inserting platinum atoms at varying intervals.

 

http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/toward-a-truly-white-organic-led/

 

Who knows if they stand a chance in hell of getting one of these to be electrically triggered.  I also don't see this as a particular win over the stacked design unless it's dramatically easier to manufacture and tune.

 

Frankly, I think the coolest thing ever (also not invented) would be either a stacked TOLED design (with each layer independently driven), or a single polymer designed to emit varying frequencies at will.  Both designs would allow for a "single subpixel" pixel and would be pretty darn cool.


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post #1186 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 05:40 PM
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....But if it's a 4k monitor there has to be upscaling or else the game would be windowed....is your pc powerful enough to render every game at native 4k? Wow if so


Nope - PC games don't upscale unless you force them to. Everything is rendered native at 4k - I have 2 x 780Ti SLI - games look awesome!

 

No, you don't understand.  The upscaling, as Plague is referring to it, happens in the display.  Your PC would have no clue at all at what is happening in the TV.


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post #1187 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 08:17 PM
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When I saw your post, I was going to ask you to please ask several of your guests to sit 85-degrees off-angle, but your post has since evaporated.
Enjoy your new toy tonight.

Haha I didn't finish typing it and my bell rang. I was gonna say I've told them its just any old LG lets see if they comment without knowing

I went with my one buddy to pick out a tv early last year after his Sammy cfl died as he knows I keep up on the tech. Best buy had an open box xbr-hx929 for 1400 in perfect condition. Immediately I said "that one dude, that's the one you want. Now. Its full array and you'll never find another at that price if ever. You brought me for a reason, right?" And he ended up going with an edge lit Sammy for the same price simply because it looked sleeker, was new and the current model. Facepalms forever....I tried to help him calibrate his set but it's just ass.

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post #1188 of 6463 Old 04-04-2014, 08:21 PM
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720p x 3 = 2160p
1080p x 2 = 2160p

Upscaling to 4k is really easy and wont introduce any artifacts. In fact 720p content should look better than it ever could on 1080p screens.

I disagree. Games always look best in their native res on a display which matches it. With film you can sometimes push fine detail or crispen the image with a good upscaler but in games it has no benefit as all you end up accomplishing is revealing the jaggy edges that begin where pre-programmed detail ends. That's what aliasing is in the first place, which never appears on film. Ps2 games still look great on CRT...ever seen one at 1080? Yuck.

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post #1189 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 02:03 AM
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I disagree. Games always look best in their native res on a display which matches it. With film you can sometimes push fine detail or crispen the image with a good upscaler but in games it has no benefit as all you end up accomplishing is revealing the jaggy edges that begin where pre-programmed detail ends. That's what aliasing is in the first place, which never appears on film. Ps2 games still look great on CRT...ever seen one at 1080? Yuck.

 

But, it's perfect upscaling with a natural integer like 2x:

 

XOX becomes

 

XXOOXX

XXOOXX

 

No information lost or created. No aliasing. It is the same picture, just spread over a finer grid.

 

Of course if some image processing is turned on, like Reality Creation, it is a different story.


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That book seems like an awful lot of voodoo. I'd love to see the pages I can't see in the preview because the parts I can say really basically say, "blue ages faster but when we put it in a stack it doesn't or something but whatever cause the white will stay a pretty color like a unicorn and all will be well and we can't really explain why but hey we're going to mention some irrelevant point about really bad OLED degradation which has nothing to do with again and then wave the magic wand and presto!"

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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Best buy had an open box xbr-hx929 for 1400 in perfect condition. Immediately I said "that one dude, that's the one you want. Now. Its full array and you'll never find another at that price if ever. You brought me for a reason, right?" And he ended up going with an edge lit Sammy for the same price simply because it looked sleeker, was new and the current model. Facepalms forever....I tried to help him calibrate his set but it's just ass.
Oh my, what a mistake that was in my eyes anyway...........

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post #1192 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 07:43 AM
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That book seems like an awful lot of voodoo. I'd love to see the pages I can't see in the preview because the parts I can say really basically say, "blue ages faster but when we put it in a stack it doesn't or something but whatever cause the white will stay a pretty color like a unicorn and all will be well and we can't really explain why but hey we're going to mention some irrelevant point about really bad OLED degradation which has nothing to do with again and then wave the magic wand and presto!"

 

A great many technologies seem that way when it's not something you're trained for.

 

The physics of a stacked design isn't my forte, but I do think I understand enough that the general principal isn't one of "hey blue doesn't age faster in a stack".  It's "as it fades, it naturally pulls the red/green down with it".

 

Which is entirely different.  I'm not sure why you're fighting this so fiercely.  These OLED physicists are always going to know far more about the effects of this than you or I will.


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post #1193 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 10:42 AM
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That book seems like an awful lot of voodoo. I'd love to see the pages I can't see in the preview because the parts I can say really basically say, "blue ages faster but when we put it in a stack it doesn't or something but whatever cause the white will stay a pretty color like a unicorn and all will be well and we can't really explain why but hey we're going to mention some irrelevant point about really bad OLED degradation which has nothing to do with again and then wave the magic wand and presto!"

A great many technologies seem that way when it's not something you're trained for.

The physics of a stacked design isn't my forte, but I do think I understand enough that the general principal isn't one of "hey blue doesn't age faster in a stack".  It's "as it fades, it naturally pulls the red/green down with it".

Which is entirely different.  I'm not sure why you're fighting this so fiercely.  These OLED physicists are always going to know far more about the effects of this than you or I will.

I'm pretty much with you on this one, tgm. Maybe I'm giving LG too much credit, but I just find it hard to believe that they would have spend $100M on a patent portfolio and then invested another $650M in a manufacturing plant for a technology they did not have confidence delivered as promised in terms of color stability and extended lifetime.

I'm more concerned about the pixel failures, especially those occurring in the field. If I've understood correctly, the backplane for LG OLED is basically the same as the backplane for LCD, so why are OLED pixels failing in the field and what is the failure mechanism?

I am also concerned about burn-in and image retention (which could be the result of differential aging of different colors).

And on color stability, it is a relatively easy thing to check and if LG invested in a technology that does not deliver color stability, they are dead. The only slight difference I have with what I've bold faced from your post above, is that the Kodak data does not indicate that red/green (yellow) gets aged faster when stacked with blue, but rather that the combined stack including both blue and yellow (white) ages much more slowly than blue alone and even a little bit slower than yellow alone. So if anything, 'as yellow ages more slowly, it naturally props blue up to age more slowly along with it' would probably be a description that fits the Kodak data more closely.

I will certainly agree with Rogo that it is all quite mysterious, non-obvious, and confusing, so independent verification of color stability would be very helpful.
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post #1194 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 11:43 AM
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But, it's perfect upscaling with a natural integer like 2x:

XOX becomes

XXOOXX
XXOOXX

No information lost or created. No aliasing. It is the same picture, just spread over a finer grid.

Of course if some image processing is turned on, like Reality Creation, it is a different story.

Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. Perhaps because this is the first new res we've gotten to where that theory would apply....however I'd still rather have a native screen then. Accordibg to you, 1080p gaming, if spread out to a 4k grid would still just be EXACTLY that: 1080 gaming. The upscaling would be nigh unnoticeable, but it's still extra video processing for no benefit whatsoever. And the grid, while a multiple of its original and therefore easier to transfer to, is still enlarged and so as far as I can see it, still succeptible to aliasing but only on the same degree as watching 1080 content on something like an 80" screen. Now that's not degrading the picture by default, however 80" is just a bit too much real estate for 1080 so you're left with more visible pixels and therefore, aliasing .

No matter how you look at it, it's either worse or the exact same with unnecessary processing being done to the image to increase its size. If gaming is your primary concern you want the best 1080 screen pissible, not a 4k as for pre-programmed material that 4k edge lit screen for 5 thousand is going to look the exact same as a 1080 edge lit for 1 thousand, with the exception of being able to closer to the screen. A 1080 screen for 5 thousand which makes absolutely no compromises elsewhere like oled on the other hand....

it really is the ultimate gaming display(unless you really need very low input lag), showing every possible gradient of shadow detail. And So far no issues with static images, only that static aspect ratio....I simply can't figure it out. I've had hud's up in games for at least as long as what what it took for those bars to burn in.

...darn darn playststions with their solid blue backgrounds everywhere in my case, though.

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Thought the Lg Oled had to high of a gaming Lag to be a good gaming tv..
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But, it's perfect upscaling with a natural integer like 2x:

XOX becomes

XXOOXX
XXOOXX

No information lost or created. No aliasing. It is the same picture, just spread over a finer grid.

Of course if some image processing is turned on, like Reality Creation, it is a different story.

Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. Perhaps because this is the first new res we've gotten to where that theory would apply....however I'd still rather have a native screen then. Accordibg to you, 1080p gaming, if spread out to a 4k grid would still just be EXACTLY that: 1080 gaming. The upscaling would be nigh unnoticeable, but it's still extra video processing for no benefit whatsoever.

 

The benefit is that you get it across the entire screen as a clean multiple completely without upscaling artifacts.  And no, the processing footprint of "nearest neighbor" pixel replication is negligible.

 

And you do theoretically gain an increase in clarity going from 720p because the NN is then from 1x1 --> 3x3.  In the case of upscaling 720p to 1080p you have a 1x1 --> 1.5x1.5 pixel enlargement, which will have a fuzzing effect sometimes, having written that particular algorithm a few different ways myself in the distant past.

 

Note: this is critically noticeable mostly for games and for gaming purists where you want to minimize the artifacts.  In video, the "fancier" upscaling, such as whatever crazy magic that Sony managed to pull off in my BDP when even displaying DVDs, is really remarkable.  Just not for gaming, (or graphics such as from PC output), at least not to a purist.

 

Be aware also (at least a little) that in the case of 4K, Chronoptimist showed a picture long ago of how the 1080p image might actually be cleaner on a 4K device because the inter-pixel grid is much thinner.  You can decide if that matters at all on your own.  The effect would be slight if anything IMHO; it's not something I'm particularly buying into, but it might well be true.

 

One final remark: It doesn't matter in this case, but per one of your remarks, consider that your notion of aliasing shouldn't be limited strictly to the "jaggies" that you see (some of us used to refer to that as "stair casing" in the old days....where a diagonal line looked like the profile of a flight of stairs.)  Aliasing is a far broader category.


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Thought the Lg Oled had to high of a gaming Lag to be a good gaming tv..

I did say "unless you need the lowest amount of lag". Because the lag is not great, but not bad enough for your eyes to notice by any stretch. On single player games you would NEVER notice. When they evaluate things like input lag they make it seem as though you press a button and then you wait for the effect. It's not like that. If you're really into competitive fps games then fractions of s second matter. But I did test it a bit and found ,(which I think I mentioned at some point,) that the onboard speakers are a huge contributer on this tv. disable them and use game mode (which doesn't lock you out of everything like a lot of other sets, it has its own calibration settings instead) you'll be fine. And I also route it through my receiver, still no problems. We're talking fractions of a second here. If you are very competitive online I can see why you'd make a distinction between tvs and input lag, but for all others you would never even think of it if nobody said anything.

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post #1198 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 02:26 PM
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The benefit is that you get it across the entire screen as a clean multiple completely without upscaling artifacts.  And no, the processing footprint of "nearest neighbor" pixel replication is negligible.

And you do theoretically gain an increase in clarity going from 720p because the NN is then from 1x1 --> 3x3.  In the case of upscaling 720p to 1080p you have a 1x1 --> 1.5x1.5 pixel enlargement, which will have a fuzzing effect sometimes, having written that particular algorithm a few different ways myself in the distant past.

Note: this is critically noticeable mostly for games and for gaming purists where you want to minimize the artifacts.  In video, the "fancier" upscaling, such as whatever crazy magic that Sony managed to pull off in my BDP when even displaying DVDs, is really remarkable.  Just not for gaming, (or graphics such as from PC output), at least not to a purist.

Be aware also (at least a little) that in the case of 4K, Chronoptimist showed a picture long ago of how the 1080p image might actually be cleaner on a 4K device because the inter-pixel grid is much thinner.  You can decide if that matters at all on your own.  The effect would be slight if anything IMHO; it's not something I'm particularly buying into, but it might well be true.

One final remark: It doesn't matter in this case, but per one of your remarks, consider that your notion of aliasing shouldn't be limited strictly to the "jaggies" that you see (some of us used to refer to that as "stair casing" in the old days....where a diagonal line looked like the profile of a flight of stairs.)  Aliasing is a far broader category.

How is getting an image across the whole screen without artifacts a benefit? That's the bare minimum required to not be a downgrade.

While I can see your point about the benefits for 720 to 4k over 720 to 1080, because it is an even transfer, Instill think they'd look even better than that on the best 720p set. And I cannot believe there is any benefit for 1080 unless I saw it myself. The game was developed and optimized specifically for that resolution, fitting that data into an array consisting of more pixels requires enlargement, no matter how you look at it. At the absolute BEST case scenario, you can sit closer to the screen and it will look the same.

This issue is debated all the time in the gaming community, and developers mostly all agree that native res is best because they've optimized data to utilize that amount of pixels, and and anything outside of that idata window is up to your equipment to properly alter the image. But it cannot add. If youre telling me 4k is going to add something to a 1080 video game just because the increase is a multiple of the original number, then WHERE is that extra clarity or detail coming from? Sharper lines are all I can even think of, but sharper lines mean jagginess.

Film negatives have all kinds of subtle details that are lost in the transition from them to your tv, but games do not. Beyond the resolution they've been programmed under nothing else exists.

Again I can concede to believe your argument about 720p because of the uneven processing required to make it 1080. But if the integers are indeed multiples of one another it still simply cannot add something that isn't there, again, except the ability to sit closer before said jaggies are seen. At best, because I'm willing to bet some games show jaggies during upscaling to 4k despite the ease of it as the lines still have to be enlarged (or else the image would be windowed) no matter how you look at it.

You're correct that aliasing is a bit more complicated than all that, but its an umbrella term which works for the sake of this argument.

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post #1199 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 02:59 PM
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The shadowing capabilities, accurate colors and unprocessed look of 1080p oled is going to provide a far more noticeable enhancement to video game graphics than any current 4k set. In 5 years this may not be the case anymore but with whats currently available there is no doubt.

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post #1200 of 6463 Old 04-05-2014, 03:47 PM
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Btw do you remember EDTV? (EXTRA def tv, displayed everything on a flat panel in 480 progressive and came in both 4:3 and 16:9 depending on consumer preference), that thing which existed for about a month until they realized how silly it was to have multiple competing higher Def markets with one being a mere marginal stepping stone).....if anybody had one of those bizarre things raise your hand!

Ps2 games capable of progressive scan and all of WII looks phenomenal on them. My buddy bought one once and kept it in his attic after a month. About two years ago we were talking, and curious to see what wii would look like on a tv made specifically for its resolution (480 but progressive scan capable of widescreen, odd) WITH a matte flat panel more like that of an hdtv, and 16:9 aspect. dug it up. 32", and used cfl backlight. It looked AWESOME through that over component. No jaggies, great colors, smooth as you remember the greatest ps2 games looking until your hdtv rendered them nigh unplayable) as if the whole console was designed around it. And finalvfantasy xii has both progressive scan AND a 16:9 mode so we tried that. It looked close (but without the textures) as your standard hd remix. Native res, baby.

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