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post #181 of 222 Old 06-04-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post


I'll try again, and then we can agree to disagree for a while.

Look at a concave mirror.  You'll see a magnification of your face.  This is because a smaller area is being reflected back to you (magnified to fill the visible region).

Look at the reverse such as convex surface of a CRT when it is off.  It will reflect a larger section of the room, but shrink the images (scaled down to fill the visible region).  Look at a shiny pipe: the facing plane of a pipe is a convex shape.  You'll see the exact same effect, but along one axis and extreme in nature.  It will reflect everything in an enormous arc shrunk down to very small (normal height but thin) sizes.

Anyway, moving on...


We'll just have to disagree. I dont mind other people being wrong.

If we had a Tube TV, a Convex Curved on the Vertical Axis "Flat Screen" and Flat Screen Plasma and a series of light bulbs the differences would be easy to see and then you would understand. Im blaming my lack of ability in communication in these boxes on the internet partially for the failing.

Convex directs light from a greater degree of arc to your eyes than does a flat surface. It compresses that light though into smaller reflections of the images reflected ie it focuses the light to a point.

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post #182 of 222 Old 06-04-2014, 08:06 PM
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Just for good measure....a True Matte Screen (LG S-IPS panel) CCFL LCD aka Vizio GV42LF in a North facing room with banks of windows non-stop on 3 sides. TV in on the West side facing East.

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post #183 of 222 Old 06-04-2014, 08:10 PM
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Here is a Samsung 51E7000 plasma with excellent Magnesium Flouride multicoatings...which give classic subdued reflections in purplish-magenta. This is what you want to see from your binoculars, telescope, and spotting scope, rifle scope and camera lenses.


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post #184 of 222 Old 06-04-2014, 10:42 PM
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Quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post

Convex directs light from a greater degree of arc to your eyes than does a flat surface.
 
Correct.  But TVs are concave surfaces as seen from the viewer.
 
Quote:
It compresses that light though into smaller reflections of the images reflected ie it focuses the light to a point.

 

In the case of concave, it the focusing to a point that yields the magnification.

 

I'm coming back to this because I think this is what you may be referring to: perhaps you're thinking of what happens when you are far further back from the arc than the length of the radius of the circle indicated by the arc (behind the focal point).  The image then flips.    (Let's use circle for this, because it's the same principal with any arc.)

 

But the arc of TVs indicate a circle with a radius much bigger than your distance to the screen.  You are in front of the focal point with curved TVs.

 

I found this website clearly explaining this: http://www.oocities.org/wave032002/reflection.htm

 

Within it is this image with explanation of what happens in front of the focal point.  Note, the text is from the webpage's author; it is not mine added in:

 

 

A magnified virtual image cannot include as much background information.


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post #185 of 222 Old 06-05-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:






This approximates what you see when you stand close to a Samsung LCD.
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post #186 of 222 Old 06-05-2014, 03:50 PM
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Ive not seen anything that states these sets are parabolic curves? ( I have spent little energy in studying curved screen HDTVs).


But regardless what matters is the multiple planes of the curve (not the focal point). Light is bounced all around a parabolic mirror not just at the focal point. Light from a CERTAIN DIRECTION gets directed at the focal point. Which is why they put light screen tubes around telescope mirrors. To cut the stray light that will reduce contrast at the focused point.

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post #187 of 222 Old 06-05-2014, 05:07 PM
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Sigh.....  "Dangerous".  Right.

 

Before stating anything like that again, perhaps YOU have an image or two to diagram what you're talking about?  No original work, use something online.

 

I've got a better idea.  Go borrow your significant other's concave mirror and look at it between the focal point and the curve.  THEN you'll see that the multiple planes you're talking about don't matter when it's all about what reaches your eyes.  You're just incorrect on this.


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post #188 of 222 Old 06-06-2014, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maltby View Post

This approximates what you see when you stand close to a Samsung LCD.

 

I think your quoting got a little messed up, but yes, this will be what happens if that LCD is curved.


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post #189 of 222 Old 06-06-2014, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Curved screen=funhouse mirror?

It hadn't occurred to me that a reflective screen might act like a funhouse mirror to a certain extant until I saw this mentioned about the LG Oled in another thread...."distorted reflections when lights are on because of the curved screen"

Distorted reflections might be even more distracting.

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post #190 of 222 Old 06-06-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sigh.....  "Dangerous".  Right.

Before stating anything like that again, perhaps YOU have an image or two to diagram what you're talking about?  No original work, use something online.

I've got a better idea.  Go borrow your significant other's concave mirror and look at it between the focal point and the curve.  THEN you'll see that the multiple planes you're talking about don't matter when it's all about what reaches your eyes.  You're just incorrect on this.

There are 2 issues.

The first is that it hasnt been established that the curves on these TVs are parabolic. And secondly it doesnt matter if they are or not, parabolic reflection has to do with electromagnetic waves coming from ONE direction.....and since the front of th TV doesnt have a blackened interior hood on it, you are going to get all sorts of reflections in all sorts of directions...except now you have more planes to direct them at your eyes than with one flat screen.

Go get your wifes mirror and put your face to the side of it and see if you see any light being reflected towards your eyes from it (and thus not at the focal point), then get back to me.

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post #191 of 222 Old 06-06-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sigh.....  "Dangerous".  Right.

Before stating anything like that again, perhaps YOU have an image or two to diagram what you're talking about?  No original work, use something online.

I've got a better idea.  Go borrow your significant other's concave mirror and look at it between the focal point and the curve.  THEN you'll see that the multiple planes you're talking about don't matter when it's all about what reaches your eyes.  You're just incorrect on this.

There are 2 issues.

The first is that it hasnt been established that the curves on these TVs are parabolic. And secondly it doesnt matter if they are or not, parabolic reflection has to do with electromagnetic waves coming from ONE direction.....and since the front of th TV doesnt have a blackened interior hood on it, you are going to get all sorts of reflections in all sorts of directions...except now you have more planes to direct them at your eyes than with one flat screen.

Go get your wifes mirror and put your face to the side of it and see if you see any light being reflected towards your eyes from it (and thus not at the focal point), then get back to me.

 

I've never said your eyes have to be AT the focal point!  And I never was specifically talking about parabolic reflection anyway; you were.

 

Yes, I see light.

 

You have this mistaken impression that more planes of reflection mean somehow more of the background being reflected somehow.  This is absolutely incorrect.  Those planes you refer to would be grabbing from a smaller region, yet still be more planes.  Perhaps you're envisioning all the normals to the curve and the scatter effect they have, but those DO NOT represent what reaches your eyes.

 

Here's a TV reviewer's evaluation of this in the "cons" part of his pros and cons list:


Quote from above web page:

The arguments against curved TVs...

1.    The curve exaggerates reflections
If you’ve ever stood in front of one of those trick mirrors at a fun park, you’ll know that shaped glass can do weird things to reflections. It’s the same deal with a curved TV. Anything bright in your room – especially direct light sources opposite your TV – has its reflection on a curved screen stretched and distorted across a wider area of the screen than would occur with a flat TV.

 


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post #192 of 222 Old 06-07-2014, 09:06 AM
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Are there even any existing LED LCD screens that are not very reflective? It seems very difficult to find this information out (I have looked on the Crutchfield site, for example, and it seems to list every screen as "glossy", even the Samsung plasmas).
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post #193 of 222 Old 06-07-2014, 09:28 AM
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Are there even any existing LED LCD screens that are not very reflective? It seems very difficult to find this information out (I have looked on the Crutchfield site, for example, and it seems to list every screen as "glossy", even the Samsung plasmas).

 

The current "holy grail" of pseudo-available AR technologies is Sharp's "Moth Eye".  It's expensive (though I'D pay for it), and some have posted that it's currently available in Japan and we're all crossing our fingers that it'll cross the lake over to the US soon.

 

It's a truly truly aggravating experience, because quite frankly, SO much of any irritation I get from watching TV is from reflections.  I'd gladly pay $20/diagonal inch for it.

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post #194 of 222 Old 06-07-2014, 03:45 PM
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post #195 of 222 Old 06-09-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

Are there even any existing LED LCD screens that are not very reflective? It seems very difficult to find this information out (I have looked on the Crutchfield site, for example, and it seems to list every screen as "glossy", even the Samsung plasmas).

Some of the new Sony LED have a near Matte screen.......similar to the old SXRD in amount of reflection (not a mirror). This 840 series that I saw at my local BB ................ don't be shocked at the price....it is BB Canada.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-70-1080p-120hz-3d-led-smart-tv-kdl70w840b-kdl70w840b/10288943.aspx?path=9293a6a31c6b0bfe58d9379ebe5552c1en02

If they come out with 4K and an effective FALD tv with this screen I will be interested. The last Sony 4K TV's that I have seen are some of the worst mirror's out there.
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post #196 of 222 Old 06-14-2014, 02:08 PM
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Dang You Glossy Screens - My kingdom for Moth Eye!

So, like a man obsessed he does too much interweb research on the topic. We recently purchased a 51" Samsung F5300 series plasma, but returned it after a week...the reflections (even when placed so as not to directly reflect our back patio french doors) were ridiculously distracting. Our current plasma has a “matte” screen and as everyone knows everything now has a full glossy, semi glossy or “glossy but with an anti-reflective coating or filter” screen. Indeed, it is the Panasonic 77U series from 2007 which offered a one year only matte screen (before they went with variations of "glossy") - it was also an UPCHARGE item over the otherwise identical 75U series that. year. Here is sits in our current environment...also showing pics of the various walls opposite and to the side of it (sorry for the over-exposed camera phone pics):







Our room is NOT what I would call bright. Our windows are north/south facing and we have shade trees, etc. In addition, two of our walls are dark, etc.

Anyway, this website got me looking at our current TVs and displays more closely :

http://www.photodon.com/c/LCD-Protective-Films.html

On that page you will see they offer a number of different films for LCDs with varying levels of optical clarity and glare, reflection reduction.

My work laptop and my external monitor are definitely what I would describe as full-on matte displays. Any light source is fully diffused and it is virtually impossible to tell what you are looking at. I even walked around the room holding up my work laptop (screen off) to various light source to observe the diffusion. We’ll call this “best case scenario” for attenuating both reflections and general glare.

My TV, however, is definitely NOT a “full matte” display.

Here are a few pics of my TV up close and my (ridiculously dirt) laptop along with descriptions:



TV, but from an angle to show the rear patio French door. The glossy bezel clearly shows the windows and you see it diffuse as it gets onto the screen itself. The glossy bezel is also a very accurate representation of what my wife's new laptop looks like across the whole screen, an iPad looks like, and what that Plasma screen we returned looked like. As an aside, we don’t actually watch the TV from this angle in the room normally unless guests are over.




From this angle, no direct reflections of a window, lamp, etc. You can see muted versions of the couch, a section of the white wall (vertical white strip in left half of pic) and even me on the far left taking the pic. Note my checkered shirt showing up well in the glossy frame.




This is me holding up my work laptop against the TV to see what a full matte screen really looks like when reflecting my patio doors. As you can see, I keep it very dirty to diffuse….um, never mind. You can clearly see a.) the full gloss reflection in the bezel, b.) the diffused reflection on the TV screen itself, and c.) a dirty matte laptop screen with, well, basically nothing but a slightly brighter hotspot in the top half. Man...why does my hand look so weird?




Anyway, here are some big takeaways for me:

1. Full matte (like my laptop) is just that…MATTE – there is no comparison to anything else when it comes to glare, reflections, etc.
2. I may not need FULL Matte on my TV – I originally assumed my TV was a little more matte than it really is. We have been perfectly happy with this semi-matte plasma. We just have zero complaints about the reflections/glare which definitely has something to do with the way it is positioned and its size (note: a larger screen opens the door for just that many more “reflective” items to show up. If you look at that Photodon web page. My TV seems to be something akin to their MXT or MXH films (as opposed to their MXG film).
3. General “reflectivity” bothers me – My wife really hated watching that one-week plasma when she could see the French doors, etc. (which was only from viewing angles we don’t normally view it at). I, on the other hand, found myself bothered by what I’ll call a general “reflectivity” across the screen all the time from any angle…even in a darkened room. I notice this with her laptop and even when I am holding an ipad. I can move the laptop screen or ipad to avoid a specific bright reflection but there just seems to be a general glare/reflectivity/gloss that just bugs me.
4. Summary – Still no answer for me yet. The high dollar Samsung F8500 plasma has an “anti-reflection” filter. That is not the same as a matte screen (which simply do not exist any more), but it MIGHT do the trick for us.

Check this link out: http://www.rtings.com/info/reflectio...nd-glossy/2013
If you scroll down to the Plasmas, you will see the Samsung F5300 which we bought (and returned) with a bad 4.3% reflection rating, and the F8500 (which costs 3X) with a much better 0.9% reflection rating (note: ignore the numbers and let your eyes be the judge). In each TV shown, LEDs and Plasmas, the reflections are more crisp than any matte display and even more crisp than our semi-matte Panasonic. I may try to order one of the anti-glare films and try it out on my wife's laptop. Note, there is a 2014 TVs link as well and the reflections on some of the Samsung LEDs are better this year (still not matte).

Honestly, I would probably go ahead and try the Samsung F8500 out if it were cheaper…can’t quite stomach $1800+ for it even though we watch more than our fair share of TV. Hoping for a big price reduction before they disappear especially since: http://www.cnet.com/news/why-samsung...eat-plasma-tv/

As I said…a man obsessed!

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post #197 of 222 Old 06-18-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Saw a curved screen yesterday at Best Buy. When it goes to a dark screen, or I imagine when it is off, you get to see in the reflection what you would look like if you put on a couple hundred pounds. Think Kingpin from the Spiderman comics.
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post #198 of 222 Old 06-23-2014, 06:24 PM
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Some more info on the Sharp UD20 MothEye sets in Japan. It has 14% more color gamunt than the older UD10. Still is only an edge-lit set, but has the pixel tuning that suppose to improve contrast. Maybe like Samsung faux local dimming. Really hope the bring it over to the US with the MothEye screen this year. Their current 4K line is really not that good.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%26tbs%3Dqdr:w
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post #199 of 222 Old 06-24-2014, 05:01 AM
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So is 60W850b Sony the only reasonably good TV available now with matte screen?
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post #200 of 222 Old 06-27-2014, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
Some more info on the Sharp UD20 MothEye sets in Japan. It has 14% more color gamunt than the older UD10. Still is only an edge-lit set, but has the pixel tuning that suppose to improve contrast. Maybe like Samsung faux local dimming. Really hope the bring it over to the US with the MothEye screen this year. Their current 4K line is really not that good.

http://translate.google.com/translat...%26tbs%3Dqdr:w
Unfortunately the moth-eye tech seems to have been omitted from the US models again. There's no mention of it on the UD27 sets. link
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post #201 of 222 Old 06-29-2014, 10:58 AM
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Unfortunately the moth-eye tech seems to have been omitted from the US models again. There's no mention of it on the UD27 sets. link
That is a shame. Would have been great for those of us with bright rooms. It's unlikely but maybe they are calling it something else over here. I always though that Americans would dislike the marketing term MothEye. I would have preferred something generic like GlareBlocker or ClearView. I have tried to find any complaints about MothEye. The only thing I could find is that it makes calibration harder, which is mostly a non issue for the general public, or complaints about dust build up in the micro grooves. The real reason is still probably cost, but they have dropped down in price over there, so I think they would be fairly competitive over here.
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post #202 of 222 Old 07-14-2014, 12:36 PM
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Are any of the new 2014 models (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc.) good at rejecting reflections?

I know they aren't matte or Moth-eye equipped but are there any models with improvements regarding glare this year?

/Martin
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post #203 of 222 Old 07-14-2014, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ayla View Post
Are any of the new 2014 models (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc.) good at rejecting reflections?

I know they aren't matte or Moth-eye equipped but are there any models with improvements regarding glare this year?

Sadly, so far no one has nominated anything available in the US.

As far as I can tell LG stands for Lots of Glare. Samsung? Korean for Samething.

Sharp is sharp enough to put out a motheye model in Japan, but nowhere else.

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post #204 of 222 Old 07-14-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maltby View Post
Phillips also used the moth eye filter for a non US, non inexpensive model. From a review....

" 46PFL9707 in fact has another even more unique feature which delighted us: the Moth Eye filter. The microscopic structure of the filter allows light to be diffused across a wider area on the panel, posing less of a threat to the image.

The vivid, clean nature of the pictures this allows the Philips 9707 to present is genuinely special: we’re so used to seeing latent reflections on TV screens – even LCDs, but especially Plasmas, which can suffer greatly in bright rooms – when we view them in brighter environments, that to some extent, we do our best to mentally tune them out.

So, seeing the 46PFL9707T’s images, which are actually free of them, is an eye-opening experience. You can watch this display in a light-flooded room, and the picture will appear remarkably lucid and free of distracting reflections. We usually recommend LED LCD televisions for use in bright rooms, but this is especially the case with the Philips 46PFL9707. It’s probably the best bright-room HDTV we’ve ever tested."
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/phili...1304042732.htm

Sounds like my cup of tea.
That. ^ ...I saw some models recently and it is what he just said.

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post #205 of 222 Old 07-14-2014, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayla View Post
Are any of the new 2014 models (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc.) good at rejecting reflections?

I know they aren't matte or Moth-eye equipped but are there any models with improvements regarding glare this year?
http://www.rtings.com/info/reflectio...tte-and-glossy

http://www.rtings.com/info/reflectio...nd-glossy/2013
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post #206 of 222 Old 07-14-2014, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ayla View Post
Are any of the new 2014 models (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc.) good at rejecting reflections? I know they aren't matte or Moth-eye equipped but are there any models with improvements regarding glare this year?
I have been checking out the Sony W800B, W850B, and W950B at Magnolia, Pauls, and Video Audio Center and they all have a semi-matte screen that is a little less reflective than my Panasonic ST60 and GT50 Plasmas (which have good AR Filters). These three Sonys are 2014 1080p models and are on my short list in case my 55ST60 suffers a catastrophic failure.



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post #207 of 222 Old 07-15-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
I have been checking out the Sony W800B, W850B, and W950B at Magnolia, Pauls, and Video Audio Center and they all have a semi-matte screen that is a little less reflective than my Panasonic ST60 and GT50 Plasmas (which have good AR Filters).
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Do you know if the X850B is similar?
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post #208 of 222 Old 07-15-2014, 09:36 AM
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I can't return the Samsung 75F8000, if I decide to get that. I've seen the Samsung's at the store, but there are no windows there, so it's really hard to judge the amount of reflections.

I'm thinking the SQ or UQ 2014 Sharp models, with their 'semi-matte' screen, might be a better choice than the F8000, anyone who can comment on that (I can't audition the Sharp models where I live in Denmark)?

/Martin
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post #209 of 222 Old 07-15-2014, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
I have been checking out the Sony W800B, W850B, and W950B at Magnolia, Pauls, and Video Audio Center and they all have a semi-matte screen that is a little less reflective than my Panasonic ST60 and GT50 Plasmas (which have good AR Filters). These three Sonys are 2014 1080p models and are on my short list in case my 55ST60 suffers a catastrophic failure.

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Hi Randy,

A simple question for a guy like you: What is your take on 4K right now between some Sony and Samsung flat panel models (forget it about curved)?

And, any 4K display with a matte screen?

Ty & cheers,
R §

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #210 of 222 Old 07-15-2014, 11:37 AM
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I can't return the Samsung 75F8000, if I decide to get that.
I'm not sure how things are in Denmark, so I cannot gauge how hard it is to find models. However, not being able to return something in America is almost always an immediate deal-breaker for most folks I know. Especially me.

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