Does Sony's Impulse Motionflow/strobing backlight mode damage the tv long term? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-26-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not very knowledgable about the technology, but I would assume a backlight that is constantly strobing on and off very fast would possibly be bad for the tv over time? Although I hear this is the same method used by CRT and Plasma displays?

Also, using Impulse mode lowers the brightness of the tv a lot. If I compensate for this by raising the backlight higher, does the backlight have to work extra hard, or is the energy output less because the mode dims the backlight, if that makes sense?

I like not having motion blur on a led, but I feel like I am wearing out my W802A quicker because I have to turn the backlight up to 7-8 out of 10 to compensate for the dimness of Impulse mode. I feel like the tv has to work harder to output more light. Am I wrong?
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-27-2013, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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anyone?
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post #3 of 17 Old 11-28-2013, 06:28 AM
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Sony has MotionFlow Clear (BFI=black frame insertion/Motion Interpolation) on its TVs since 2008. I haven't seen any complaints yet so i would not worry about it. In general backlight compensation is +3/+4, i also would not worry about that.
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Sony has MotionFlow Clear (BFI=black frame insertion/Motion Interpolation) on its TVs since 2008. I haven't seen any complaints yet so i would not worry about it. In general backlight compensation is +3/+4, i also would not worry about that.

Impulse mode is different than the MotionFlow Clear, though. Clear just inserted black frames or lines into the picture... Impulse mode cuts the backlight on/off repeatedly. I think his concern is the LEDs going out faster than normal.

I would say not to worry about it, though. LEDs can last pretty long being cut on and off (probably will still last longer than you keep your TV, since you'll probably upgrade for 4K or something eventually).

If you're still concerned, just keep your warranty in tact or get a SquareTrade warranty for a hundred dollars or so that extends your warranty a few extra years for peace of mind.

Sony XBR-65X900E, Denon AVR-X2300W, Polk CS20 Center, Polk Monitor 75T Fronts, Polk TSI300 Rears, Power Sound Audio S1500 Subwoofer.
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post #5 of 17 Old 11-29-2013, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Sony has MotionFlow Clear (BFI=black frame insertion/Motion Interpolation) on its TVs since 2008. I haven't seen any complaints yet so i would not worry about it. In general backlight compensation is +3/+4, i also would not worry about that.

Impulse mode is different than the MotionFlow Clear, though. Clear just inserted black frames or lines into the picture... Impulse mode cuts the backlight on/off repeatedly. I think his concern is the LEDs going out faster than normal.

I would say not to worry about it, though. LEDs can last pretty long being cut on and off (probably will still last longer than you keep your TV, since you'll probably upgrade for 4K or something eventually).

If you're still concerned, just keep your warranty in tact or get a SquareTrade warranty for a hundred dollars or so that extends your warranty a few extra years for peace of mind.
According hdtvtest.co Impulse Mode uses backlight scanning/ black frame insertion techniques, no interpolation is applied.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl55w905a-201305172987.htm?page=Performance


MotionFlow Clear uses backlight scanning/ black frame insertion/ motion interpolation techniques.

MotionFlow Clear on the XBR8, the Original MotionFlow Clear, does backlight scanning/ backlight blinking which works in vertical zones. It switches the LEDs regularly off for very short period,. There is also Motion Interpolation and BFI involved.
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post #6 of 17 Old 11-30-2013, 10:20 AM
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LEDs can be pulsed without problem. LED-banners are sometimes pulses one pixel at a time to light the whole display (thanks to pixel persistence).
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post #7 of 17 Old 11-30-2013, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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what about running the backlight on max while in impulse mode? The backlight on max is still not bright enough to match backlight at 1 with no impulse. I'm worried that if I keep impulse on which will require max backlight, the tv will die quicker because it would be the same as having the tv on torch mode without the impulse mode, even though it is less bright.
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post #8 of 17 Old 12-01-2013, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

I think his concern is the LEDs going out faster than normal.
.

I worry about getting the gas recharged in my plasma after Panasonic stops making them.

Oh, wait.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #9 of 17 Old 12-01-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2k4 
what about running the backlight on max while in impulse mode? The backlight on max is still not bright enough to match backlight at 1 with no impulse. I'm worried that if I keep impulse on which will require max backlight, the tv will die quicker because it would be the same as having the tv on torch mode without the impulse mode, even though it is less bright.
Torch Mode is about exaggerating color, detail, blacks, Whites and brightness. I would worry more about PQ since MotionFlow Clear and Impulse Mode will have a negative impact on PQ whatever the compensation is.
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post #10 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Torch Mode is about exaggerating color, detail, blacks, Whites and brightness. I would worry more about PQ since MotionFlow Clear and Impulse Mode will have a negative impact on PQ whatever the compensation is.
Motionflow Impulse primarily degrades brightness only, and has relatively little effect on color quality other than that. The LCD is driven in the same way (no interpolation), except backlight strobing is added. You can fix a lot of the brightness degradation by turning off the ambient light sensor.

As a result, Motionflow Impulse is great for console gaming and HTPC gaming, because it's the only ultra-low-latency (less than 1 frame) Motionflow mode, and does not add interpolation artifacts. No other Motionflow mode has nearly zero input lag, like Motionflow Impulse. It's actually like Sony's version of LightBoost (a newly popular strobe backlight found in 120Hz desktop gaming monitors for computers).

For more information, see New CRT-quality LCD's -- Zero Motion Blur For Video Games.

LED doesn't wear on strobing (unless boost voltage is used). The Sony's don't use boost voltages during Motionflow Impulse strobing, so Motionflow Impulse will actually prolong the life of the Sony backlight/edgelight, since it's just a form of low-frequency PWM (optimized for motion-blur elimination, like CRT flicker). LED's are strobeable at millions times per second, as LED's are semiconductor devices that are used with optical fibers. They don't wear out when you switch them on/off rapidly, if you're not overdriving them (which the Sony is not). Motionflow Impulse is still dimmer than not using Motionflow Impulse, and overall average brightness is a a more accurate indicator of future LED wear-and-tear, regardless of strobing. Often, even at Impulse's brightest setting (ambient light sensor disabled), it's still at least 50% dimmer than not using Impuse.

Thanks,
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post #11 of 17 Old 12-04-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon 
Motionflow Impulse primarily degrades brightness only, and has relatively little effect on color quality other than that. The LCD is driven in the same way (no interpolation), except backlight strobing is added. You can fix a lot of the brightness degradation by turning off the ambient light sensor.

There is not one Impulse Mode, there are several versions of it - hdtvtest.uk ''the sony W905's Impulse Mode caused significantly less flicker to our eyes compared to last year's HX853'' ,<- two versions of Impulse Mode.
W905 Impulse Mode: ''with Impulse Mode engaged we had to set Backlight and Contrast to MAX. This pretty much rules it out for daytime viewing'' This sounds even more extreme than MotionFlow Clear. Watching blu-ray movies on a pro-calibrated sony with Impulse Mode enabled? I do not know about that smile.gif
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl55w905a-201305172987.htm?page=Performance


There are lots of versions of MotionFlow Clear. It has been said that when using MotionFlow Clear on the XBR8 it would have no impact on calibration, all you have to do is is turn up backlight a bit. That might be true nevertheless it doesn't look nearly as good - in fact it looks ugly when compared - as when you turn MotionFlow Clear off.
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-05-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

There is not one Impulse Mode, there are several versions of it - hdtvtest.uk ''the sony W905's Impulse Mode caused significantly less flicker to our eyes compared to last year's HX853'' ,<- two versions of Impulse Mode.
Interesting to know, I'd love to know if there's a specific Impulse Mode that does not use interpolation.
I don't think there's any, because the KDL-55W905A only adds less than 1 frame of input lag in Impulse Mode, which confirms the abscence of interpolation for the W905A's impulse mode. The increased/reduced flicker can be the changes in the flicker duty cycle (longer strobes versus shorter strobes), so this isn't "different" per se in that it adds interpolation. As long as the word "Impulse" remains interpolation-free, that's the important thing. A 25%:75% duty cycle flickers more than a 50%:50% duty cycle, even if both does not have interpolation. The duty cycle does affect the amount of motion blur reduction (e.g. www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=3 ...) So... Importantly, can you confirm if any "Impulse" mode adds frame interpolation?
Quote:
There are lots of versions of MotionFlow Clear. It has been said that when using MotionFlow Clear on the XBR8 it would have no impact on calibration, all you have to do is is turn up backlight a bit. That might be true nevertheless it doesn't look nearly as good - in fact it looks ugly when compared - as when you turn MotionFlow Clear off.
According to that diagram, all of those Motionflow Clear modes have interpolation and adds lots of input lag. Look at the middle images of each row. All four of them interpolates! Yuck; that's bad for computers and games -- adds about 40-80ms of input lag -- that's definitely not what W905A does. The Motionflow Impulse mode, that's good for console video games, with low input lag, is the one that does not use interpolation. There appears to be overlap between Motionflow Clear and Motionflow Impulse, but the only one reliable for video game / computer use is the Impulse one.

There are definitely different variants of Motionflow Impulse, but one thing that has not changed: I've never come across an Impulse mode that uses interpolation. Otherwise I'd be dissapointed. The correct Impusle mode adds no extra frames. This means Sony stopped being consistent about keeping interpolation away from the "Impulse" mode, since it's the only motion-blur-reducing Sony Motionflow mode that I can recommend to console gamers and computer users, because it's the low-latency Motionflow mode that works well with 60fps video games, as it leaves all pixels unaltered (no interpolation artifacts)

The only way to have a low-lag Motionflow (good for computers/games) is to keep interpolation away from it. Changes in color quality and flicker quality will probably continue to occur.

As long as Sony consistently keeps interpolation away from one of the motionflow modes (e.g. Impulse) I'm happy. smile.gif
At least until the day in the future that interpolation adds less than 10ms of input lag, which is currently impossible (at the moment).

Thanks,
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post #13 of 17 Old 12-06-2013, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon 
According to that diagram, all of those Motionflow Clear modes have interpolation and adds lots of input lag. Look at the middle images of each row. All four of them interpolates! Yuck; that's bad for computers and games -- adds about 40-80ms of input lag -- that's definitely not what W905A does. The Motionflow Impulse mode, that's good for console video games, with low input lag, is the one that does not use interpolation. There appears to be overlap between Motionflow Clear and Motionflow Impulse, but the only one reliable for video game / computer use is the Impulse one.

There are definitely different variants of Motionflow Impulse, but one thing that has not changed: I've never come across an Impulse mode that uses interpolation. Otherwise I'd be dissapointed. The correct Impusle mode adds no extra frames. This means Sony stopped being consistent about keeping interpolation away from the "Impulse" mode, since it's the only motion-blur-reducing Sony Motionflow mode that I can recommend to console gamers and computer users, because it's the low-latency Motionflow mode that works well with 60fps video games, as it leaves all pixels unaltered (no interpolation artifacts)

The only way to have a low-lag Motionflow (good for computers/games) is to keep interpolation away from it. Changes in color quality and flicker quality will probably continue to occur.

As long as Sony consistently keeps interpolation away from one of the motionflow modes (e.g. Impulse) I'm happy. smile.gif
At least until the day in the future that interpolation adds less than 10ms of input lag, which is currently impossible (at the moment).
Sony constantly is improving and tweaking Clear and Impulse Mode so make shure you are keeping your info up to date smile.gif
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post #14 of 17 Old 10-30-2016, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by 8mile13

There is not one Impulse Mode, there are several versions of it - hdtvtest.uk ''the sony W905's Impulse Mode caused significantly less flicker to our eyes compared to last year's HX853'' ,<- two versions of Impulse Mode.

Interesting to know, I'd love to know if there's a specific Impulse Mode that does not use interpolation.
I don't think there's any, because the KDL-55W905A only adds less than 1 frame of input lag in Impulse Mode, which confirms the abscence of interpolation for the W905A's impulse mode. The increased/reduced flicker can be the changes in the flicker duty cycle (longer strobes versus shorter strobes), so this isn't "different" per se in that it adds interpolation. As long as the word "Impulse" remains interpolation-free, that's the important thing. A 25%:75% duty cycle flickers more than a 50%:50% duty cycle, even if both does not have interpolation. The duty cycle does affect the amount of motion blur reduction (e.g. www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=3 ...) So... Importantly, can you confirm if any "Impulse" mode adds frame interpolation?
Quote: There are lots of versions of MotionFlow Clear. It has been said that when using MotionFlow Clear on the XBR8 it would have no impact on calibration, all you have to do is is turn up backlight a bit. That might be true nevertheless it doesn't look nearly as good - in fact it looks ugly when compared - as when you turn MotionFlow Clear off.


According to that diagram, all of those Motionflow Clear modes have interpolation and adds lots of input lag. Look at the middle images of each row. All four of them interpolates! Yuck; that's bad for computers and games -- adds about 40-80ms of input lag -- that's definitely not what W905A does. The Motionflow Impulse mode, that's good for console video games, with low input lag, is the one that does not use interpolation. There appears to be overlap between Motionflow Clear and Motionflow Impulse, but the only one reliable for video game / computer use is the Impulse one.

There are definitely different variants of Motionflow Impulse, but one thing that has not changed: I've never come across an Impulse mode that uses interpolation. Otherwise I'd be dissapointed. The correct Impusle mode adds no extra frames. This means Sony stopped being consistent about keeping interpolation away from the "Impulse" mode, since it's the only motion-blur-reducing Sony Motionflow mode that I can recommend to console gamers and computer users, because it's the low-latency Motionflow mode that works well with 60fps video games, as it leaves all pixels unaltered (no interpolation artifacts)

The only way to have a low-lag Motionflow (good for computers/games) is to keep interpolation away from it. Changes in color quality and flicker quality will probably continue to occur.

As long as Sony consistently keeps interpolation away from one of the motionflow modes (e.g. Impulse) I'm happy.
At least until the day in the future that interpolation adds less than 10ms of input lag, which is currently impossible (at the moment).
Hi
Sorry i read the topic many times but i didn't understand .Does turning off BFI=black frame insertion or Motion Interpolation will damage w800 sony tv ? I hadnt bought this tv yet and i like watch tv in 120 Hz and clear for watching sports . If you think this will damage this tv i will buy better model .
Thank you
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post #15 of 17 Old 10-31-2016, 06:03 AM
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Hi
Sorry i read the topic many times but i didn't understand .Does turning off BFI=black frame insertion or Motion Interpolation will damage w800 sony tv ? I hadnt bought this tv yet and i like watch tv in 120 Hz and clear for watching sports . If you think this will damage this tv i will buy better model .
Thank you
Well. The question was if turning on BFI, Impulse-ish stuff would harm the TV longterm, this is not the case. Motion Interpolation is not harmful for the TV either. Turning off BFI, Impulse, Motion Interpolation etc.. will definitely not be harmful for your TV. It does not matter wether the TV is cheap or expensive.
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-31-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. The question was if turning on BFI, Impulse-ish stuff would harm the TV longterm, this is not the case. Motion Interpolation is not harmful for the TV either. Turning off BFI, Impulse, Motion Interpolation etc.. will definitely not be harmful for your TV. It does not matter wether the TV is cheap or expensive.
Thank you very much so i will buy w800c
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post #17 of 17 Old 11-04-2016, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Well. The question was if turning on BFI, Impulse-ish stuff would harm the TV longterm, this is not the case. Motion Interpolation is not harmful for the TV either. Turning off BFI, Impulse, Motion Interpolation etc.. will definitely not be harmful for your TV. It does not matter wether the TV is cheap or expensive.
Yes, but in a much larger sense I worry about the progression of information "out there" that can happen just from the OP asking a very sensible and reasonable question.

This is the kind of thing that happens, and I've seen it happen at AVS as I'm sure have most of you:

"Can someone tell me if {x} will happen?"
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