TVs at CES 2014: Bye-bye 1080p plasma, hello 4K LED LCD (CNET Article) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Before too much excitement gets generated about a marketing effort: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-master-201401083577.htm
Yea, sorry...Building plasma tech for a decade? ~$10 billion. Developing LCD to make it marginally passable? ?$. Intentionally crippling your best display ever to make inferior tech appear superior: Priceless.
Well that's speculation. However, I've also read that it's actually an edge-lit local dimming set with 32 zones... so it's not even in the same league as the higher-end LCDs being released this year.

Panasonic has never really been a big player in the LCD business, so it's hardly surprising.

Their studio master tech still looks nice though:
LxTCWRq.jpg
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Can you identify which of these displays is a Panasonic ZT60 (the best plasma they ever made) and which is the new LCD they were showing off?

YW2lGrw.jpg
The plasma's on the right?
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by homogenic View Post

The plasma's on the right?
No, that's the LCD.
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Before too much excitement gets generated about a marketing effort: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-master-201401083577.htm
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Originally Posted by HDTVTest 
We should also point out that, based on close-up visual analysis of the ZT60 plasma in the comparison, it appeared to be operating in the “Low” panel luminance mode, which does not alternate the luminance on every second scanline, and therefore would not be operating at its best black level. If we’re correct with this observation, it would naturally paint the two LCDs in a more sympathetic light.
Yea, sorry...Building plasma tech for a decade? ~$10 billion. Developing LCD to make it marginally passable? ?$. Intentionally crippling your best display ever to make inferior tech appear superior: Priceless.

 

.......arg!  I like that there are people wondering such things out loud, but this is precisely the kind of thing that gets linked to and referenced out the wazoo before we even know if it's true.  We've seen this before with TV technology: one statement, one chart, and they told two friends, and so on and so on and so on (dating myself here with a very old commercial)...


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:20 AM
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tgm1024: DO you think that ANY LCD produced for actual sale in the US in 2014 will beat out a Sharp Elite in picture quality?
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:36 AM
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tgm1024: DO you think that ANY LCD produced for actual sale in the US in 2014 will beat out a Sharp Elite in picture quality?

 

No clue.  I didn't go to CES.  And I'm still unclear about what's inside the Sharp Elite: For instance, in 2011/2012, Cnet couldn't get an answer from Sharp about the number of dimming zones in the 60X5FD.  Nor would they tell HDguru.  I've seen quotes here and there of it being 299 for the 70", I've seen 240 for the 60"....beats me.

 

I have [naive] hopes for the Panasonic.  But it's the sort of hope I have when watching a movie the 2nd time where the protagonist dies and I'm like "he can make it......he can make it.......................(aw crap!)"


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

DO you think that ANY LCD produced for actual sale in the US in 2014 will beat out a Sharp Elite in picture quality?
I would argue that in many respects, Sony's HX900 was a better set (of course I am biased, since I one) because its dimming algorithms allowed the zones to actually turn off (they only went to a very low level on the Elite) and because it used an RGB panel with good color accuracy, rather than an RGBY panel and a broken CMS.
Sharp make good LCD panels, but I don't feel like they build good televisions. The Elite had a lot more local dimming zones, but I feel the set was let down more by the other problems.

While it likely won't have as many zones as the Elite, the Sony X950 will probably be a better display.
Vizio's sets with 384 dimming zones or whatever it was, and Dolby HDR sound very interesting too.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I would argue that in many respects, Sony's HX900 was a better set (of course I am biased, since I one) because its dimming algorithms allowed the zones to actually turn off (they only went to a very low level on the Elite) and because it used an RGB panel with good color accuracy, rather than an RGBY panel and a broken CMS.
Sharp make good LCD panels, but I don't feel like they build good televisions. The Elite had a lot more local dimming zones, but I feel the set was let down more by the other problems.

While it likely won't have as many zones as the Elite, the Sony X950 will probably be a better display.
Vizio's sets with 384 dimming zones or whatever it was, and Dolby HDR sound very interesting too.

Since Sony never uses more zones than 120 the X950 will have max 125 zones and since Sony's will not give any info on quantum dots/rgb leds it will probably use white leds. Since there was very little improvement after the HX929, HX950 has practically the same PQ, the XBR X950B will be a 4K-ish HX929/HX950 smile.gif
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 

No clue.  I didn't go to CES.  And I'm still unclear about what's inside the Sharp Elite: For instance, in 2011/2012, Cnet couldn't get an answer from Sharp about the number of dimming zones in the 60X5FD.  Nor would they tell HDguru.  I've seen quotes here and there of it being 299 for the 70", I've seen 240 for the 60"....beats me.

I have [naive] hopes for the Panasonic.  But it's the sort of hope I have when watching a movie the 2nd time where the protagonist dies and I'm like "he can make it......he can make it.......................(aw crap!)"
According HTE the 60'' has 240 zones and the 70'' has 336 zones.
http://www.hteny.com/6121

If you want some confirmation check out the Owner theads on AVS and HDJ wink.gif
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Old 01-14-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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The Vizio supposedly gives the Sharp Elite a run for its money as confirmed by Mark Henninger (iMagic), and Kevin Miller (pro cal) was purportedly mightily impressed with the CES demo. Will it translate down to the models that eventually see release? I hope Robert (Zohn) is in contact with Vizio so we can get a more definitive word. cool.gif
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The Vizio supposedly gives the Sharp Elite a run for its money as confirmed by Mark Henninger (iMagic), and Kevin Miller (pro cal) was purportedly mightily impressed with the CES demo. Will it translate down to the models that eventually see release? I hope Robert (Zohn) is in contact with Vizio so we can get a more definitive word. cool.gif

 

I'm convinced that shows and reviewers get the "lucky" displays.  We'll have to see how things look once they're stamped out in droves and sold by Amazon, BB, etc.  Heck, for all we know there might be a construction flaw that makes standard shipping ruin the entire thing.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Since Sony never uses more zones than 120 the X950 will have max 125 zones
So because previous models have not used hundreds of zones, their new model couldn't possibly?
I have said it many times before though - the combination of LCD panel, backlighting solution used, and algorithms used for local dimming makes a far bigger difference than the number of zones.

Of course a high zone count is preferable, but there are many displays which touted hundreds of dimming zones which made themselves far more visible than Sony's local dimming techniques.
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

since Sony's will not give any info on quantum dots/rgb leds it will probably use white leds.
It's a Triluminos display, which means it's either using QD film, or RGB LEDs. You cannot achieve the color purity required for Triluminos with white LEDs alone.
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Since there was very little improvement after the HX929, HX950 has practically the same PQ, the XBR X950B will be a 4K-ish HX929/HX950 smile.gif
The HX920/950 was when Sony was going through a transitional period with their displays. I've actually heard some people say that they were exactly the same TV other than external appearances - though I have not verified it.

There are a number of new features listed for the X950B which did not exist on the HX920/950, so they cannot be the same displays again, with simply the LCD panel swapped out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

The Vizio supposedly gives the Sharp Elite a run for its money as confirmed by Mark Henninger (iMagic), and Kevin Miller (pro cal) was purportedly mightily impressed with the CES demo. Will it translate down to the models that eventually see release? I hope Robert (Zohn) is in contact with Vizio so we can get a more definitive word. cool.gif
It's a shame that the Vizio booth was invite-only. A number of smaller publications whose opinion I value did not get the opportunity to view the displays.
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I'm convinced that shows and reviewers get the "lucky" displays. We'll have to see how things look once they're stamped out in droves and sold by Amazon, BB, etc. Heck, for all we know there might be a construction flaw that makes standard shipping ruin the entire thing.
Many times reviewers are provided displays from a local retailer that they have a deal with (advertising for example) or the sets are purchased directly, rather than getting a review unit from the manufacturers.
Trying to get review units of new models can be a real pain sometimes when they have a limited number of units and you're waiting on three other publications before you get your turn - and that assumes the display doesn't get damaged by them, or destroyed in shipping because they were not repackaged correctly. If you are relying on the manufacturers for review hardware, good luck getting their next line of displays if you didn't put out a glowing review last time.

I have received a number of review units which were provided from the manufacturers and either they must have had a terrible product, or it was clearly not hand-picked at all.
Trade shows, I'm quite sure will be showing off their best though.
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Old 01-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View PostC|NET CES 2014

LG's curved 77'' 4K OLED ''technology demonstration'' ← prototype won CES 2014 ''Best of Innovations'' award. LG was unable to state wether the model shown today was the same one exhibited at IFA in september 2013 ← it's the same model.

$30,000

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Old 01-14-2014, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Trying to get review units of new models can be a real pain sometimes when they have a limited number of units and you're waiting on three other publications before you get your turn - and that assumes the display doesn't get damaged by them, or destroyed in shipping because they were not repackaged correctly. If you are relying on the manufacturers for review hardware, good luck getting their next line of displays if you didn't put out a glowing review last time.

I have received a number of review units which were provided from the manufacturers and either they must have had a terrible product, or it was clearly not hand-picked at all.
Trade shows, I'm quite sure will be showing off their best though.

 

Point taken, except that it still seems to me that if you're one of the top name sites, glowing review or not you're going to try to hand-pick the best screen you got for them.  Especially if you have a crap product: the reviewer will see the flaws on the TV from BB inventory.  It'd be better to send CNet, Engadget, PCMag, TechRadar, Gizmodo, HDguru, etc., etc., the displays that luckily ended up without DSE/flashlighting/what-have-you, no?  After all, Twenty of the top sites will cost a manufacturing company only twenty of each model (to have them all reviewed simultaneously), and that's just noise-money to a manufacturer.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:23 PM
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So knowing what you know would you buy a Plasma today or wait for OLED to be affordable?

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Old 01-14-2014, 05:26 PM
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So knowing what you know would you buy a Plasma today or wait for OLED to be affordable?

 

I wouldn't buy a 2K anything right now, for fear of wanting the higher resolution later.

 

And OLED needs to be more than just affordable:

 

  1. It needs to solve the image-retention/burn-in problem.
  2. It needs to be bright enough to manage impulse style anti-blur technology.  If it can't flash quickly, it'll smear against the retina, and this robs you of overall luminescence.
  3. It needs to be able to last.  (Rolled into this is blue-fade).

 

Only then is affordable closer to being "enough".


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
So because previous models have not used hundreds of zones, their new model couldn't possibly?
I have said it many times before though - the combination of LCD panel, backlighting solution used, and algorithms used for local dimming makes a far bigger difference than the number of zones.

Of course a high zone count is preferable, but there are many displays which touted hundreds of dimming zones which made themselves far more visible than Sony's local dimming techniques.
They could use more zones but that is highly unlikely to happen. Even after the Elite Pro when Sony was under presure to come up with a simular quality TV they stopped at 110 zones. Pretended though that it were 300 zones so they would sell more of them. More than 125 zones highly unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
It's a Triluminos display, which means it's either using QD film, or RGB LEDs. You cannot achieve the color purity required for Triluminos with white LEDs alone.
That is not what you said in the OLED thread rolleyes.gif

quote Chronoptimist: ''Trimulos means ''wide gamut'' it does not require that it uses QD film.''
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
The HX920/950 was when Sony was going through a transitional period with their displays. I've actually heard some people say that they were exactly the same TV other than external appearances - though I have not verified it.

There are a number of new features listed for the X950B which did not exist on the HX920/950, so they cannot be the same displays again, with simply the LCD panel swapped out.
What i am saying is that it will be a 4K-ish HX929/HX950 - it will have simular PQ.
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist 
It's a Triluminos display, which means it's either using QD film, or RGB LEDs. You cannot achieve the color purity required for Triluminos with white LEDs alone.
That is not what you said in the OLED thread rolleyes.gif

quote Chronoptimist: ''Trimulos means ''wide gamut'' it does not require that it uses QD film.''

 

You lost me here.  He's saying it's not confined to QD.  It's QD or RGB LEDs.  The issue is to have tight spectral emitters.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I have said it many times before though - the combination of LCD panel, backlighting solution used, and algorithms used for local dimming makes a far bigger difference than the number of zones.

Of course a high zone count is preferable, but there are many displays which touted hundreds of dimming zones which made themselves far more visible than Sony's local dimming techniques.

 

Back when it was computationally prohibitive to employ a dimming algorithm per LED, it might have been the case that there were algorithmically different ways of being clever with different results.

 

But now?  I can't imagine we don't have the GPU bandwidth to manage several hundred independent LEDs 1:1 with the zone count.  I suspect this would make the # of zones = the # of LEDs = the bottom line.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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Old 01-14-2014, 05:57 PM
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I would imagine we have the computational bandwidth to manage 8 million LED zones. One clue is that we have 8 million pixels on a 4K display and it seems to have no trouble managing to display the correct information for all 8 million of them.

Yes, there are certain optimizations needed for zone dimming (average picture level of the zone, how to blend properly with adjacent zones), but they are trivial.

I think Chron's point is right, though. More zones != automatically better. Enough zones with good management is the way to go, assuming the zones are reasonably small squares (which is why edge-lit dimming is so awful, The elongated rectangles approximate virtually no content. A square of some sufficiently small size does.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 

You lost me here.  He's saying it's not confined to QD.  It's QD or RGB LEDs.  The issue is to have tight spectral emitters.
what about the new Sharp stuff, blue LED with red and green coating?
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2013/12/sharp-combines-blue-led-with-green-and-red-phosphors-to-create-efficient-high-color-gamut-lcd-screen-backlight.html
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:49 PM
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Yes, there are certain optimizations needed for zone dimming (average picture level of the zone, how to blend properly with adjacent zones), but they are trivial.
Trivial? “You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” smile.gif

IMO LED and LCD compensation are not trivial. I started a thread on LD optimization years back. Very interesting stuff. Overcoming crosstalk.....etc
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View PostI wouldn't buy a 2K anything right now, for fear of wanting the higher resolution later.

 

And OLED needs to be more than just affordable:

 

  1. It needs to solve the image-retention/burn-in problem.
  2. It needs to be bright enough to manage impulse style anti-blur technology.  If it can't flash quickly, it'll smear against the retina, and this robs you of overall luminescence.
  3. It needs to be able to last.  (Rolled into this is blue-fade).

 

Only then is affordable closer to being "enough".

Interesting 4K will only be good in a year or so after they have mastered the technology!  Also try to find good looking 4K at $2000 :)

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Old 01-14-2014, 07:44 PM
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They could use more zones but that is highly unlikely to happen. Even after the Elite Pro when Sony was under presure to come up with a simular quality TV they stopped at 110 zones. Pretended though that it were 300 zones so they would sell more of them. More than 125 zones highly unlikely
The HX920/950 were released back when Sony was completely restructuring things and focused on reducing the cost of their displays. And I don't know that anything was trying to "compete" with the Elite LCDs. They then eliminated the full array local dimming models altogether last year, which I would assume was another cost-saving measure.

Now they're back, and touting a number of improvements. Maybe they do still have ~120 zones, maybe not. Until we hear one way or the other from Sony or from reviews, I don't care to speculate.
I don't think 120 zones is a serious limiting factor for image quality as some people are suggesting though. It might not be ideal, but it will produce a very good image.
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That is not what you said in the OLED thread rolleyes.gif
quote Chronoptimist: ''Trimulos means ''wide gamut'' it does not require that it uses QD film.''
That doesn't contradict what I wrote.
You can't make a wide gamut display using white LEDs. In previous Triluminos displays (Qualia 005, XBR8) Sony were using RGB LEDs. Last year, Sony used Blue LEDs with QD Film to convert that into high purity red, green, and blue light.
It sounds like they have switched back to RGB LEDs this year.
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What i am saying is that it will be a 4K-ish HX929/HX950 - it will have simular PQ.
I have not seen anything which suggests that - at least not in a negative way as you seem to be implying. I would say that the Sony HX9 series of LCDs are some of, if not the, best looking LCDs ever made, so that's not a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think Chron's point is right, though. More zones != automatically better. Enough zones with good management is the way to go, assuming the zones are reasonably small squares (which is why edge-lit dimming is so awful, The elongated rectangles approximate virtually no content. A square of some sufficiently small size does.
Exactly.

Assuming the exact same design and local dimming algorithms are used - and there are a number of different approaches you can take with local dimming, and compensations you can do to minimize haloing - more zones are almost always going to be better.
But when you are comparing completely different designs (e.g. a Sharp Elite vs a Sony TV) you cannot assume that the display with more zones is automatically going to produce a better image.
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Old 01-14-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

But when you are comparing completely different designs (e.g. a Sharp Elite vs a Sony TV) you cannot assume that the display with more zones is automatically going to produce a better image.
True. However, the smaller the zone the less the crosstalk on the diffuser to deal with.

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Old 01-14-2014, 08:16 PM
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Trivial? “You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” smile.gif

It means exactly what I think it means.
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IMO LED and LCD compensation are not trivial. I started a thread on LD optimization years back. Very interesting stuff. Overcoming crosstalk.....etc

I think taking algorithms that already exist and have largely been perfected and implementing them on your particular hardware is pretty trivial. It's not like they are inventing algorithms or solving problems that haven't already been solved (and mostly well).

Trivial, in this case, means exactly that. You are simply plowing well plowed ground and don't need much expense to do it. Compare that to, say, ramping OLED production, which is non-trivial. No one has ever done it, no one is clear on the best method to achieve mass production, etc.

Also, when I use the word, I presume all the TV mfrs. have some world-class engineering on board (and they do) so we are not asking, for example, the medicine man to perform a quadruple bypass.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:39 PM
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It means exactly what I think it means.
I think taking algorithms that already exist and have largely been perfected and implementing them on your particular hardware is pretty trivial. It's not like they are inventing algorithms or solving problems that haven't already been solved (and mostly well).

Trivial, in this case, means exactly that. You are simply plowing well plowed ground and don't need much expense to do it. Compare that to, say, ramping OLED production, which is non-trivial. No one has ever done it, no one is clear on the best method to achieve mass production, etc.

Also, when I use the word, I presume all the TV mfrs. have some world-class engineering on board (and they do) so we are not asking, for example, the medicine man to perform a quadruple bypass.
Sorry, I assumed you meant the technology itself as trivial (little importance or value), not the novelty or implementation.

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Old 01-14-2014, 09:29 PM
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I would argue that in many respects, Sony's HX900 was a better set (of course I am biased, since I one) because its dimming algorithms allowed the zones to actually turn off (they only went to a very low level on the Elite) and because it used an RGB panel with good color accuracy, rather than an RGBY panel and a broken CMS.
Sharp make good LCD panels, but I don't feel like they build good televisions. The Elite had a lot more local dimming zones, but I feel the set was let down more by the other problems.

While it likely won't have as many zones as the Elite, the Sony X950 will probably be a better display.
Vizio's sets with 384 dimming zones or whatever it was, and Dolby HDR sound very interesting too.

IIRC, the zones not going completely off on the Elite was to solve a lot of the blooming problems experienced in sets like the Sony 950.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:48 PM
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IIRC, the zones not going completely off on the Elite was to solve a lot of the blooming problems experienced in sets like the Sony 950.
Correct. Sharp took great effort in optimizing the design tradeoffs. Quite interesting and informative. Some issues are inherent.


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Old 01-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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Why should we celebrate LCD going backwards?

FALD does not exist--now we're getting FAKE Full Array--and the experts around here are EATING it!

I'd be ashamed to support FAKE Full Array.

Not to mention that YES--the picture sucks compared to Sharp Elites which weren't the greatest displays anyway!

Hold onto plasma and PRAY that OLED eventually makes it.

If not get ready to EAT you know what!
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Why should we celebrate LCD going backwards?

FALD does not exist--now we're getting FAKE Full Array--and the experts around here are EATING it!

I'd be ashamed to support FAKE Full Array.

Not to mention that YES--the picture sucks compared to Sharp Elites which weren't the greatest displays anyway!





Hold onto plasma and PRAY that OLED eventually makes it.

If not get ready to EAT you know what!


Ok, ok


Artie no worries

Panny promised us at ces that their new 2014 LEDs are the equal if not the better of their 2013 plasma displays

Hell, who needs a zt when you can get a steal on these new LEDs

Several members saw the proof at the panny ces setup where thie new LEDs trounced the bound and gagged plasma they set up for comparison

I'm dumping my Kuro to grab one of these

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