Flat UHD OLED a No-Show at CES - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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A large, flat, UHD OLED TV is on the wish-list of many videophiles, and rightly so. After looking at a gaggle of curved screens over the past two days, I've come to the conclusion that the form factor does not rise above being a gimmick until you get to 100+ inch screen sizes with a 2.35:1 ratio. That's why I was disappointed to see so little development in that category. Yesterday, I saw two flat 55" HD OLEDs—one from LG, and one from TCL.

The 55" EA8800 from LG is priced at $8,999 and is the only flat OLED from a major manufacturer that is slated to ship to North America. It looks good, but not as spectacular as the larger UHD models, which outperform it in terms of overall image quality, so long as you ignore the curved screen. The irony is that LG is pitching it as a niche product—a "Gallery OLED" meant to display works of art. However, for such a use, UHD would truly come in handy since paintings usually get scrutinized from close-up—an application where UHD resolution would offer a tremendous benefit.


LG's flat, 1080p Gallery OLED

TCL Showed a flat AMOLED panel, but there was no hype around it. The specs look good, with a native contrast ratio of 20,000:1 and a peak highlight brightness capability of 600 nits—it produced a vivid, punchy image but TCL's rep said it was not shipping to North America anytime soon. I don't know where it will be sold, but it's quite clear that flat OLED is not a priority for any TV manufacturer. In my opinion it's a shame and a missed opportunity. The good news is that TCL demonstrated an ability to build a decent OLED panel, which should help bring down the cost of entry if the product ever becomes available. Currently there is no model number and no msrp.


TCL's flat 55" 1080p AMOLED display looked great
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post #2 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 11:41 AM
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That means I can totally ignore this hobby for the next year. Frees up time for many worthwhile pursuits!
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post #3 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 11:48 AM
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It really boggles my mind how ENGINEERS, who must surely understand why large theater projector screens are curved, are pushing this gimmick on OLED. I think it's a case of "because we can" what with the bendable nature of OLED. I will not ever consder something like this to purchase, if they are still making curved OLEDs that fall into my price range.

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post #4 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 12:10 PM
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Lg 55" curved 4k oled looks intresting.cool.gif
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post #5 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 01:55 PM
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Mark-

Since you brought the "wish-list of many videophiles" what about screens without glare? Motheye, new antiglare glass, anything out there for next year?

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post #6 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eapleitez View Post

It really boggles my mind how ENGINEERS, who must surely understand why large theater projector screens are curved, are pushing this gimmick on OLED. I think it's a case of "because we can" what with the bendable nature of OLED. I will not ever consder something like this to purchase, if they are still making curved OLEDs that fall into my price range.

Plenty of curved LCDs here including the Samsung that can switch from flat to curved. OLED has no monopoly on the curve.

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post #7 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Plenty of curved LCDs here including the Samsung that can switch from flat to curved. OLED has no monopoly on the curve.

Hopefully Samsung's curved LCDs will fail in the marketplace and end this curved BS.
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post #8 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 03:02 PM
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Soooooo........

........did you TELL them?

Did you TELL the highest-ranking person you could find in each of the manufacturer's booths that curved screens are near-universally-loathed, and don't make sense, technically, at small-to-medium screen sizes, and that we're all waiting, money-in-hand for flat screens?

It's great to report that there were no flat OLED screens at the show; The real story I was hoping for was what the vendors said when you asked them why not.
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post #9 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DiscCollector View Post

Soooooo........

........did you TELL them?

Did you TELL the highest-ranking person you could find in each of the manufacturer's booths that curved screens are near-universally-loathed, and don't make sense, technically, at small-to-medium screen sizes, and that we're all waiting, money-in-hand for flat screens?

It's great to report that there were no flat OLED screens at the show; The real story I was hoping for was what the vendors said when you asked them why not.

I did and the answer (from a rep for a major mfg) was... drumroll please: Curved screens are popular internally among the execs.

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post #10 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 03:13 PM
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Wow. Just.....wow.
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post #11 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 03:15 PM
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Curved OLED screens are this year's DIVX*.


(*product that nobody asked for - and nobody wants - being foisted on us by clueless execs).
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post #12 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 03:49 PM
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I tend to agree with eapleitez's theory, 'Because we can.'

It was OLED sets that gave us the first curved screens... 1) because the technology allowed them to be made that way, 2) because it was an eye-catching way to distinguish nascent OLED TV technology and highlight its existence, and 3) because LG and Samsung weren't capable of producing these sets at any quantity or affordability so it suited them that serious AV enthusiasts generally aren't interested in curved screens.

Where I think it went wrong is that other companies began producing curved LCD sets, just because 'they could', and as a sort of spoiler to OLED's 'unique' selling point, but the industry then began to see this as a sort of 'movement' and began competing with itself to produce curved sets, regardless of market demand.

So, in summary, my contention is that the TV industry, almost in its own little bubble world, convinced itself this was a product design it should be pursuing.

When the sales don't materialise, it'll be quickly abandoned as a case of 'what were we thinking?'

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post #13 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 04:38 PM
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Maybe somebody creates Facebook page named " ANTI- Curved Television" so that they can see how many people will like it ?
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post #14 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eapleitez View Post

It really boggles my mind how ENGINEERS, who must surely understand why large theater projector screens are curved, are pushing this gimmick on OLED. I think it's a case of "because we can" what with the bendable nature of OLED. I will not ever consder something like this to purchase, if they are still making curved OLEDs that fall into my price range.
The engineers certainly do understand, but they are paid by people to do what they are told...and if they want to continue to be paid, they do it, lol.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I did and the answer (from a rep for a major mfg) was... drumroll please: Curved screens are popular internally among the execs.
And these are the clowns that dictate what the engineers do.

Exec: "Ohhhh shiny new techie, me like-y, must have curved; build me curved TV!"
Engineer: "But, sir, it has no technical merit at those sizes...and even worse, causes distortions and..."
Exec: "You want paycheck?"
Engineer: frown.gif "yes...."
Exec: "Then have it ready by CES!"

It continues to amaze me how these morons acquire their power. Moreover, it seems their alpha personalities allow them to scream the stupidest ideas loudly and continuously until they either fail miserably or start to sound like good ideas to an even dumber lot of people, who then latch on and run with them.
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post #15 of 52 Old 01-08-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelmichael View Post

Maybe somebody creates Facebook page named " ANTI- Curved Television" so that they can see how many people will like it ?

Great idea, I would definitely like it.
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post #16 of 52 Old 01-09-2014, 12:58 AM
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Curved screens are 100% "because they can" and to allow for marketing differentiation in a product no one can mass produce anyway.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Curved screens are 100% "because they can" and to allow for marketing differentiation in a product

...the only real sales argument is that you can see the screen better over a wider viewing angle...

... so when somebody develops a flat screen having an even wider viewing angle, then the sales argument for curved screens will simply vanish...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Curved screens are 100% "because they can" and to allow for marketing differentiation in a product no one can mass produce anyway.

This probably is not the case of bendable TV shown by Samsung as, curiously enough, it is a LCD and not OLED. I presume, as there is no problem with mass production of 4K 85" LCDs so there should be no problem with bendable LCDS. Thus, once again OLED can not differentiate from LCD even if consumers would be wanting supernatural power of bending their TVs which is unlikely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by eapleitez View Post

It really boggles my mind how ENGINEERS, who must surely understand why large theater projector screens are curved, are pushing this gimmick on OLED. I think it's a case of "because we can" what with the bendable nature of OLED. I will not ever consder something like this to purchase, if they are still making curved OLEDs that fall into my price range.
The engineers certainly do understand, but they are paid by people to do what they are told...and if they want to continue to be paid, they do it, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I did and the answer (from a rep for a major mfg) was... drumroll please: Curved screens are popular internally among the execs.
And these are the clowns that dictate what the engineers do.

Exec: "Ohhhh shiny new techie, me like-y, must have curved; build me curved TV!"
Engineer: "But, sir, it has no technical merit at those sizes...and even worse, causes distortions and..."
Exec: "You want paycheck?"
Engineer: frown.gif "yes...."
Exec: "Then have it ready by CES!"

It continues to amaze me how these morons acquire their power. Moreover, it seems their alpha personalities allow them to scream the stupidest ideas loudly and continuously until they either fail miserably or start to sound like good ideas to an even dumber lot of people, who then latch on and run with them.

Exacto mundo, you don't argue with an exec, the guy who does loses his job. Engineers are grunts in the decision making hierarchy of most companies. Sure, they might take technical objections into advisement, but if you push more than that, you will be out of a job. Trust me, I know. We've had some useless producers on major videogames I worked on who forced us to re-prototype the same play-test rejected features up to three times, wasting several months. Had they listened to their employees better, they'd have had a better product. Then again, a great producer or director can take something mediocre and make it great, much better than the sum of its parts.
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post #21 of 52 Old 01-09-2014, 12:11 PM
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Will there ever be a president of a Video Display company like Steve Jobs was to Apple? You know--someone who actually knew something about their product? Or is that just an American thing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I did and the answer (from a rep for a major mfg) was... drumroll please: Curved screens are popular internally among the execs.

There's a Dilbert comic in there somewhere. That's why I like Dilbert so much - because every single strip is absolutely true.

But just $9000 for a 55" OLED? (I use the term "just" loosely) That's a very good sign that prices are moving the right direction. I think once these reach $5000, the adoption rate should quickly pick up. Maybe there is hope for us plebs in 2016.
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post #23 of 52 Old 01-10-2014, 07:24 PM
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...the only real sales argument is that you can see the screen better over a wider viewing angle...

... so when somebody develops a flat screen having an even wider viewing angle, then the sales argument for curved screens will simply vanish...

I have little idea what this means... Seriously.

You can see the far part of the screen better from the near side... In other words, sit off to the right and you now see the far left edge better. But this comes at the expense of the right edge, which becomes much harder to see. I wonder if anyone making this argument has actually spent any time contemplating what the heck they are talking about. I spent hours with the curved sets. Whatever gain is obtained from the plus side of the ledger is lost several times over on the minus side.
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

This probably is not the case of bendable TV shown by Samsung as, curiously enough, it is a LCD and not OLED. I presume, as there is no problem with mass production of 4K 85" LCDs so there should be no problem with bendable LCDS. Thus, once again OLED can not differentiate from LCD even if consumers would be wanting supernatural power of bending their TVs which is unlikely.

Samsung's design for "bendable" LCD requires a much, much more complex mechanism than LG's equivalent design for OLED. It has no mass production goal and it's so clunky looking, I doubt many (any?) people will want the Samsung.

Score a small but irrelevant victory for OLED here.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #24 of 52 Old 01-11-2014, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You can see the far part of the screen better from the near side... In other words, sit off to the right and you now see the far left edge better. But this comes at the expense of the right edge, which becomes much harder to see.

Point taken.
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post #25 of 52 Old 01-11-2014, 02:11 PM
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Curved screens have theoretical benefits if you can sit in the sweet spot center of their radius. On a flat screen, a constant size 2D object will always appear slightly smaller or larger as it moves into parts of the screen that are at different distances from the viewer - simple perspective at work. If all parts of the screen are at equal distances to the viewer, objects remain at fixed size. So to say that flat screens don't cause distortion is incorrect. They cause a different type of perspective distortion which our brains are already used to.

In the real-world, these theoretical benefits of curved screens don't apply because the screens are too small for the typical viewing distances involved. At these sizes and distances, most can't see the distortion of a flat panel or the benefit of a curved panel. All they see is curved panel distortion because they are not viewing from the extremely small sweet spot.

For TV applications, there is really no place for curved screens in most situations. Hopefully the manufacturers will realize this sooner than later.
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post #26 of 52 Old 01-11-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmichael View Post

Maybe somebody creates Facebook page named " ANTI- Curved Television" so that they can see how many people will like it ?

Don't worry. The marketplace will speak for itself. In 2 years there will be no curved screens on anything under 100".
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post #27 of 52 Old 01-11-2014, 02:40 PM
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These units did look sweet. What is needed is a unit like the old pioneer plasma's. Two wires hard wired into the tv that is 3\16 thick top to botton and flat. Have a connecting media box for the brains and connections the size of a dvd player external and off the tv wink.gif
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post #28 of 52 Old 01-11-2014, 06:18 PM
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Curved screens have theoretical benefits if you can sit in the sweet spot center of their radius. .

For 1-2 people... Big screen TVs usually are sold for families...

As the rest of your post indicates, you get why curved is bad... But it's worse than bad.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #29 of 52 Old 01-15-2014, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscCollector View Post

Soooooo........

........did you TELL them?

Did you TELL the highest-ranking person you could find in each of the manufacturer's booths that curved screens are near-universally-loathed, and don't make sense, technically, at small-to-medium screen sizes, and that we're all waiting, money-in-hand for flat screens?

It's great to report that there were no flat OLED screens at the show; The real story I was hoping for was what the vendors said when you asked them why not.

I did and the answer (from a rep for a major mfg) was... drumroll please: Curved screens are popular internally among the execs.

 

LOL!  Oh man.......  Thanks for the first laugh of the day.....


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #30 of 52 Old 01-15-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Curved screens are 100% "because they can" and to allow for marketing differentiation in a product no one can mass produce anyway.

 

I might change this to a 100% "we can too", because once this nonsense showed up there might have been a worry from some manufacturers that they would look technologically unable to do what others could.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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