Panasonic's plans post Plasma? - AVS Forum
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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > Panasonic's plans post Plasma?
cpc's Avatar cpc 09:13 AM 01-11-2014
What is Panasonic going to do now that they don't make plasma TV's? Are they going to step up their led/lcd game? Are they researching OLED?

Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 09:49 AM 01-11-2014
RandyWalters's Avatar RandyWalters 09:55 AM 01-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

What is Panasonic going to do now that they don't make plasma TV's?

They're going to focus on toasters and hair dryers now. They seem to want to get out of the CE business as they don't seem to know how to make money on it.

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Are they going to step up their led/lcd game?

Early reports from CES on their prototype LCD are positive. There's a big thread about it on the LCD Forum. Dunno if they'll actually make a production version though.

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Are they researching OLED?

As widely reported here and on the internet, they have ended their OLED collaboration with Sony. Many of us don't see Panasonic ever following through with their original plans to produce OLEDs.
cpc's Avatar cpc 10:20 AM 01-11-2014
Interesting. Well, lcd/led TV's do have other issues with motion and sharpness etc...but it would be nice to think something better is on the horizon for regular lcd tv's. OLED is sketchy, expensive and far off affordability wise at best.
rogo's Avatar rogo 06:23 PM 01-11-2014
I really doubt Panasonic will be selling TVs a few years from now. I especially doubt they'll be selling them in the U.S.

Vizio, which already is a dominant seller of TVs here, is executing a strategy designed to remove Panasonic, Toshiba and possibly even Sony from U.S. retail. While many doubt this is even possible, I am not among them. Keep in mind Samsung and LG will help Vizio execute this plan. So will Hisense, TCL and others.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 06:42 PM 01-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

Interesting. Well, lcd/led TV's do have other issues with motion and sharpness etc...
These are problems which have been solved years ago with scanning backlights.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 07:34 PM 01-11-2014
^But the complaints remain even on modern models, so clearly there's more work to be done.
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 08:46 PM 01-11-2014
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^But the complaints remain even on modern models, so clearly there's more work to be done.
The majority of LCDs still do not include backlight scanning/strobing - only the higher end models have it, and only from some manufacturers. Sony are leading the way in this area with their "Impulse" mode.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 11:25 PM 01-11-2014
Do you have a model number offhand that utilizes backlight scanning? I'd like to read reviews/impressions. Is it a XBR and/or W900a? Unfortunately, I've recently seen motion complaints regarding one of the more highly regarded Samsung models from last year (F8000).
Chronoptimist's Avatar Chronoptimist 12:33 AM 01-12-2014
Any of the high-end Sony LCDs should be using it since the HX900 when they are using the "Clear" (Backlight Scanning + Interpolation) or "Impulse" (Backlight Scanning only) MotionFlow modes.
The lower the persistence, the dimmer the display will get though (approaching Plasma brightness levels) and the more likely you are to notice flicker.

Sony's new models for 2014 are offering 2-3x the brightness of last year's models, so this should no longer be an issue.
Wizziwig's Avatar Wizziwig 02:37 AM 01-12-2014
Backlight scanning and/or strobing does not completely solve ghosting issues on LCD TV. I've played some 60 fps games on a 2013 X9 series Sony TV (in Impulse mode) and there was clear double images present for many color transitions. The VA panels used in televisions are not fast enough in all cases to completely switch pixel states between the strobe intervals.

I have no experience with strobing PC TN monitors but their faster pixel response may yield slightly better results.

I will also note that Plasma doesn't do much better. It's actually worse in some cases because of the increase in dither noise and high phosphor lag during high-speed motion.

Still waiting for some tech to come along that matches my ancient CRT for motion clarity in 60 fps gaming. Strobing might work in OLED if they can ever get them bright enough to allow very short strobes.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 10:47 AM 01-12-2014
Restrictive environmental regulations might nip that in the bud (OLED hopes).
KidHorn's Avatar KidHorn 07:04 AM 01-13-2014
My hunch is Panasonic will stop producing TVs in the near future. They may continue to sell TVs manufactured by other companies. I think within 5 years, no Japanese companies will be making TVs. They can't compete cost wise with the Chinese.
RandyWalters's Avatar RandyWalters 08:08 AM 01-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

My hunch is Panasonic will stop producing TVs in the near future. They may continue to sell TVs manufactured by other companies. I think within 5 years, no Japanese companies will be making TVs. They can't compete cost wise with the Chinese.

.......Or the Koreans.
rogo's Avatar rogo 12:30 PM 01-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

My hunch is Panasonic will stop producing TVs in the near future. They may continue to sell TVs manufactured by other companies. I think within 5 years, no Japanese companies will be making TVs. They can't compete cost wise with the Chinese.

I am of the mind you are absolutely correct. I think you can add Toshiba (certainly), Sharp (probably) and Sony (very likely) to the "out of the business" list within 5 years. I've written this at AVS now a few times not because I want it to be true, but because the writing is absolutely on the wall.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 08:56 AM 01-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think you can add Toshiba (certainly), Sharp (probably) and Sony (very likely) to the "out of the business" list within 5 years. I've written this at AVS now a few times not because I want it to be true, but because the writing is absolutely on the wall.

 

You wrote recently

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If Panasonic is still selling TVs in the U.S. after 2016, I'll be very surprised.


You still holding to that?  Are Panasonic going to be next ones out of the US market?  Does this mean that 2016 is likely but much earlier is possible?

 

The thing about this that I wonder about is that the mood of their current president sounds like he will not keep any division that is losing money.  I have to wonder if he sees the same writing on the wall you did that 2015 might be the last year.  Beats me where they're going with all this, but not having POLED working made their "our LCD is just as good as plasma" thing sound like a Hail Mary to me.

 

By the way, I don't think anyone has connected the dots here regarding Sony & Panasonic no longer working together and how that by itself specifically means that either are in worse shape than ever before.  I can imagine a scenario where that means that one of them is so close that they don't want a partner.  Is that not possible?


vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 12:30 PM 01-14-2014
POLED, haha...I like.
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 01:39 PM 01-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

POLED, haha...I like.

 

Eh, I stole it from someone.


rogo's Avatar rogo 03:24 PM 01-14-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

You still holding to that?  Are Panasonic going to be next ones out of the US market?  Does this mean that 2016 is likely but much earlier is possible?

Panasonic's entire TV division makes no sense. Why run a huge, multi-thousand person division to sell low margin goods when you are transitioning your whole company away from large segments of the consumer sector and toward business-to-business endeavors. They have lost billions; this cannot continue.

So, yes, I peg Panasonic as next, I don't think they will only leave the U.S. (though at first they might), and yes, 2016 is a back-end date. Toshiba's continued TV presence makes no sense either. Sony's is marginally more sensible, though as a money loser in 13 of 14 quarters, it's really expensive brand promotion when I believe the TV as dumb screen is the future...
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The thing about this that I wonder about is that the mood of their current president sounds like he will not keep any division that is losing money.  I have to wonder if he sees the same writing on the wall you did that 2015 might be the last year.  Beats me where they're going with all this, but not having POLED working made their "our LCD is just as good as plasma" thing sound like a Hail Mary to me.

What goes on at CES is so random and detached from the real world. Panasonic also showed a wall of OLEDs, curved into a ribbon. It's not a product, they had no doubt announced that they might make it a product. It will almost certainly never be a product... Yet there it was... Sony's TV people used phrases like, "We are selling tons of these" about every model... Yet the division bleeds red ink. The guys who do marketing are in the business of marketing.
Quote:
By the way, I don't think anyone has connected the dots here regarding Sony & Panasonic no longer working together and how that by itself specifically means that either are in worse shape than ever before.  I can imagine a scenario where that means that one of them is so close that they don't want a partner.  Is that not possible?

Doubtful. It was a JV to develop mfg. technology and given the lack of anything resembling product from either company (vs. last year where they talked about the prototypes as something to look forward to), it's clear they are nowhere close. What I have no sense of is why they failed, other than to say people have been trying to print OLEDs for 10 years, no one has, not for lack of trying. That's why I remain cautiously bullish on Kateeva. Sometimes, you need to come at a problem with completely fresh eyes to solve it. (I think this applies to the Oculus Rift guys as well, incidentally...)
tgm1024's Avatar tgm1024 04:36 PM 01-14-2014
Quote:

Originally Posted by rogo
 

That's why I remain cautiously bullish on Kateeva. Sometimes, you need to come at a problem with completely fresh eyes to solve it. (I think this applies to the Oculus Rift guys as well, incidentally...)

 

Companies and people become boxed in by their own initial ideas.  It's difficult to go even 1/3rd of the way on a particular track and decide you should have tried something entirely different.  In the small, engineers do this all the time.  In the large, entire companies have been known to chase God-knows-what down a rabbit hole for years.


rogo's Avatar rogo 05:58 PM 01-14-2014
Right, which is why companies almost never change what they are doing.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang 09:51 AM 01-18-2014
Weboh's Avatar Weboh 01:31 PM 01-18-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really doubt Panasonic will be selling TVs a few years from now. I especially doubt they'll be selling them in the U.S.

Vizio, which already is a dominant seller of TVs here, is executing a strategy designed to remove Panasonic, Toshiba and possibly even Sony from U.S. retail. While many doubt this is even possible, I am not among them. Keep in mind Samsung and LG will help Vizio execute this plan. So will Hisense, TCL and others.
It is over for Japanese TV companies. The fact where Sony doesn't produce TVs in Mexico anymore, while Vizio does, and the fact where Sony doesn't know when to give up will doom Sony and their insipid wholly movie company Columbia in the long run. Pioneer would have been bad for us too, since they were trying to make their stuff in Mexico als' -- I am told. The ugly truth is Sony produced most of their CRTs in Mexico.
Weboh's Avatar Weboh 01:35 PM 01-18-2014
Did I forget to say Panasonic will survive by diversifying.
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 04:55 PM 01-18-2014
Pioneer was assembling in California, but the costs doomed them. Why would them manufacturing in Mexico been bad for "us" exactly? If they weren't so far in the red, it might've meant the arrival of 10G. It afforded Panasonic to last for another 5 years at least.
Weboh's Avatar Weboh 08:51 AM 01-19-2014

Why is a cheap labor product very profitable and expensive then? If a cheap labor product is gotten cheap, it still retards industrial innovation. The southeast was so backward that it didn't stand a chance during the civil war.


vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 09:06 AM 01-19-2014
Ignoring another cryptic analogy...cheap labor is expensive in what way? From a QC standpoint?

EDIT: No need to make personal slights. I overlooked "product" in your first question. Obviously, the answer is the expense involves transport, materials, plant leasing/purchasing, and the processes of manufacture (i.e. autoclave) among other things. Much of the actual manufacturing is automated and doesn't involve "cheap" hired hands.
rogo's Avatar rogo 02:44 PM 01-19-2014
I'm not even going to be part of a discussion that seems to imply that things built in Mexico are inherently bad. If some other point is being made, you'll have to clarify to get my attention back.
Weboh's Avatar Weboh 01:21 AM 01-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm not even going to be part of a discussion that seems to imply that things built in Mexico are inherently bad. If some other point is being made, you'll have to clarify to get my attention back.

Anything built with slave labor has the evil of excess profit usually.


mr. wally's Avatar mr. wally 01:24 AM 01-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm not even going to be part of a discussion that seems to imply that things built in Mexico are inherently bad. If some other point is being made, you'll have to clarify to get my attention back.


Mark, with your technical expertise and your experience in business economics, you could write one hell of an article analyzing, comparing, and contrasting the demise of the American television industry and then, given what should have been an advantage to the Japanese manufacturers (the knowledge learned from defeating their american rivals), explaining the Japanese loss of the television market to the upstart Koreans and other Asian players

Would make excellent course material in business graduate schools

Love to see your finished product. Hell Forbes would probably pick it up
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