Sony TV business on its final way out? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 144 Old 02-05-2014, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Another restructuring, TV business put into separate company.

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post #2 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 05:06 AM
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Why do these announcments keep happening on my birthday (Feb 6th) ?? LOL

First Pioneer, and now maybe Sony?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117484/pioneer-to-end-tv-production

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/06/us-sony-results-restructuring-idUSBREA1509A20140206



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post #3 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 06:49 AM
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post #4 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 07:03 AM
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I saw a story on tv this morning on the news that Sony is pulling the plug on its laptop business which means no more Viao's being made, they are cutting over 5000 jobs, lost over a billion dollars over the past year and on the Bloomberg website they are saying that Sony is spinning off its tv manufacturing business. This isn't good and its not surprising really. Sony has been losing its ass for a long time when it comes to their tv manufacturing and I can point to many reason why but I wont because it would take to damn long. Sony says they wont get out of the tv business but if things keep going they way they are then they may be forced to. Will 4K save them? I highly doubt it. I have been a long time Sony supporter but they have lost their way and have lost their edge, and really that happened a few years ago. I thought they turned things around a little in 2012 when it came to their TV's but fell back again in 2013 and from what I have seen so far in 2014 things aint getting any better. As for their Vaio laptops? I liked them but prices were insane and with as much competition as there is in the Laptop business its no surprise Sony pulled the plug there and is calling it quits. "[BSony also said it will split its TV division off into a separate company by July 2014.][/B]"? That's pure desperation to me by Sony, they are reaching. Will it help? We shall see.
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post #5 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 07:11 AM
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Some had speculated they would totally abandon the TV business so at least they aren't doing that. At least not yet.
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post #6 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 07:38 AM
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Some had speculated they would totally abandon the TV business so at least they aren't doing that. At least not yet.


No not yet Rich but if sales continue to sag and they continue to lose money they may not have a choice but to get out of the tv business altogether, like Pioneer did. Sony is in big trouble! mad.gif
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post #7 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Face it with cold blood: restructuring the division into separate subsidiary is the last step before its disposing, with clean legal and financial structure it can be done fast.

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post #8 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 08:23 AM
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btw meaning of VAIO_

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post #9 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Face it with cold blood: restructuring the division into separate subsidiary is the last step before its disposing, with clean legal and financial structure it can be done fast.

Face it, restructuring IS the last step and the last straw. If it fails Sony's tv division is finished.

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btw meaning of VAIO_



Vaio now means to me: Failure due to stupid business decisions! mad.gif
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post #10 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 09:26 AM
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My last Sony TV was a 27" Trinitron. The company seems to have lost all of it's desire to innovate. They missed the boat on OLED.
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I will be surprised if they beat Panasonic to the exit door.
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post #12 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 10:10 AM
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post #13 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 11:03 AM
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Continuing down the road to no name Chinese brands of the LCD toilet!

All you rah rah types out there like the way it smells nowadays?
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post #14 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

My last Sony TV was a 27" Trinitron. The company seems to have lost all of it's desire to innovate. They missed the boat on OLED.

I agree Mike they did indeed miss the boat on OLED. But no they decided to stick with 4K which is going to lead no where like 3D before it.

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I will be surprised if they beat Panasonic to the exit door.

The way it looks Sony will beat Panasonic there first.
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Continuing down the road to no name Chinese brands of the LCD toilet!

All you rah rah types out there like the way it smells nowadays?


Sony is alive and kicking Artwood, for now. Panasonic though and all their rah rah plasma types are already smelling that foul toilet smell because of a failed tech that went away to soon. Will Sony soon follow? That remains to be seen but it don't look good.
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post #15 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 03:59 PM
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So the good news is that much of Sony is built as these owned subsidiaries.

The bad news is, you don't do this unless you have a reason: sell it off / shut it down / spin it out completely and let it go wither and die.

Here's my related-ish post... http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/02/06/bye-bye-o-to-vaio-sony-is-the-canary-in-two-coal-mines/

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #16 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So the good news is that much of Sony is built as these owned subsidiaries.

The bad news is, you don't do this unless you have a reason: sell it off / shut it down / spin it out completely and let it go wither and die.

Here's my related-ish post... http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/02/06/bye-bye-o-to-vaio-sony-is-the-canary-in-two-coal-mines/


Excellent post rogo from Forbes.
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Sony is alive and kicking Artwood, for now. Panasonic though and all their rah rah plasma types are already smelling that foul toilet smell because of a failed tech that went away to soon. Will Sony soon follow? That remains to be seen but it don't look good.
It might be just me, but I don't envision a toilet when I sit down to enjoy my ZT in the evening. wink.gif Both companies look to be casualties to unsustainable razor thin margins (or worse).
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post #18 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So the good news is that much of Sony is built as these owned subsidiaries.

The bad news is, you don't do this unless you have a reason: sell it off / shut it down / spin it out completely and let it go wither and die.

Here's my related-ish post... http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/02/06/bye-bye-o-to-vaio-sony-is-the-canary-in-two-coal-mines/


mark, one of your best I've read

did anyone see this tablet dominant world coming?

neflixis our nemesis
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post #19 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 10:23 PM
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I envision the toilet of LCD every time I watch one.

I've tried to post here about the possibilities of smell-o-vision for years but with no luck--it's a taboo subject.

LCD rots. Plasma is incorruptible.

Who writes this stuff?

If you can't laugh at yourself--who can you laugh at?
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post #20 of 144 Old 02-06-2014, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So the good news is that much of Sony is built as these owned subsidiaries.

The bad news is, you don't do this unless you have a reason: sell it off / shut it down / spin it out completely and let it go wither and die.
Here's my related-ish post... http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/02/06/bye-bye-o-to-vaio-sony-is-the-canary-in-two-coal-mines/

Spot-on rogo, spot-on. Found just one error in the text: 'Sony will lose about $250 billion selling TVs this year'. Not that much they will loose but there is every
reason to believe Sony TV subsidiary is on its way of becoming brand sticker licensor to Chinese maufacturers.
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did anyone see this tablet dominant world coming?

Got this painfully to know since my wife started her love with the iPad mini Retina biggrin.gif. Now I am finding her in the living room on the sofa recliner with iPad on her knees watching TV reruns. IN FRONT of our 65" Sony sadly dark screen! According to her the big TV does not feel sexy anymore while iPad mini TV is cute, personal, and PQ is excellent :eek.: The future is high-density displays but of personal size.

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post #21 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 02:41 AM
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The future is high-density displays but of personal size.

And according to this report, those future displays will be primarily LCD, not OLED:

http://www.displaysearch.com/cps/rde/xchg/displaysearch/hs.xsl/140121_ltps_tft_lcds_growing_to_half_of_all_mobile_phone_display_revenue.asp
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post #22 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Spot-on rogo, spot-on. Found just one error in the text: 'Sony will lose about $250 billion selling TVs this year'.

Thanks for the catch!
Quote:
Not that much they will loose but there is every
reason to believe Sony TV subsidiary is on its way of becoming brand sticker licensor to Chinese maufacturers.

I'm really shocked Panasonic hasn't done this yet. It would go a long way for Hisense or TCL or someone....
Quote:
Got this painfully to know since my wife started her love with the iPad mini Retina biggrin.gif. Now I am finding her in the living room on the sofa recliner with iPad on her knees watching TV reruns. IN FRONT of our 65" Sony sadly dark screen! According to her the big TV does not feel sexy anymore while iPad mini TV is cute, personal, and PQ is excellent :eek.: The future is high-density displays but of personal size.

It's apparently weirder in homes with multiple kids where there are 2-3 tablets going in the same room as the TV -- and no one is watching the TV.
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mark, one of your best I've read

did anyone see this tablet dominant world coming?

Some did, but there are skeptics. This guy is smart, but thinks the boom is already done:

http://recode.net/2014/02/06/our-love-affair-with-the-tablet-is-over/

I disagree, but it's always worth hearing the other perspective. Note that most tablet growth in Asia is, in fact, TV-watching on cheap "Android" tablets where there is no real Android to speak of except at the base level.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

And according to this report, those future displays will be primarily LCD, not OLED:

http://www.displaysearch.com/cps/rde/xchg/displaysearch/hs.xsl/140121_ltps_tft_lcds_growing_to_half_of_all_mobile_phone_display_revenue.asp

Yeah, betting against LTPS was a bad bet for everyone, including Apple, which actually was sort of the pioneer there. Slacker is going to tell me "things can change" but those forecasts are now based on committed capital for the next several years and they tell a couple of important stories:

1) IGZO is dead for phones. It may be alive for tablets -- we'll see as it has landed in the iPad Mini Retina and possibly elsewhere -- but it's not coming to phones. In fact, it's likely never coming to phones.

2) OLED is going to lose ground. This is not some half-cocked theory, it's based on the fact that LTPS has passed it already. Before, both LTPS and OLED were taking share from a-Si LCDs (the old kind, which didn't really allow for high-resolution screens). Now, as the move to "retina" displays in in full force and even affecting midrange and low-priced smartphones (like the Moto G, which has a decent screen), LTPS has become the dominant technology. Samsung is a huge player in smartphones and so it's going to keep OLED strong in the sector, but it can't stop the LCD buzzsaw.

3) This is small screen stuff, but it has ramifications for larger screens. OLED has yet to get anywhere in tablets. Ask yourself why it's going to given this trend. Ask yourself why it's going to make any progress in laptops (a shrinking market with increasingly less economic value). TFT-LCD took over the world on the back of massive scale economies. It doesn't appear to be losing them.

(Don't tell Art.)

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #23 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 06:37 AM
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As I look at the bigger picture it wouldn't have mattered if Sony would have gone OLED or not they are in deep trouble and they have been for awhile. I believe the only thing saving them right now is the Playstation consols. Their tv division is in shambles and 4K is not making them the money they thought it would, their pc division never made them much money which is why they sold it off, and from the top down decisions are being made that is hurting the company not helping it. I really don't know if Sony can do anything to turn the tide. Concentrating on Smart Phones and Tablets aint going to make things better because there is way to much competition and spinning off their tv division and concentrating on 4K high end sets aint going to help much either. By the beginning of 2015 I wont be surprised if Sony pulls the plug on tv manufacturing altogether, they are bleeding money and there is no way to stop it. Its to late. That being said, mr. wally asked if anyone saw this tablet dominant world coming? I sure didn't that's for sure. But its here and I see it everyday. Not only with tablets but smart phones as well. The masses cant get enough of them, which may help Sony but I doubt it.
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post #24 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yeah, betting against LTPS was a bad bet for everyone, including Apple, which actually was sort of the pioneer there. Slacker is going to tell me "things can change" but those forecasts are now based on committed capital for the next several years and they tell a couple of important stories:

1) IGZO is dead for phones. It may be alive for tablets -- we'll see as it has landed in the iPad Mini Retina and possibly elsewhere -- but it's not coming to phones. In fact, it's likely never coming to phones.

2) OLED is going to lose ground. This is not some half-cocked theory, it's based on the fact that LTPS has passed it already. Before, both LTPS and OLED were taking share from a-Si LCDs (the old kind, which didn't really allow for high-resolution screens). Now, as the move to "retina" displays in in full force and even affecting midrange and low-priced smartphones (like the Moto G, which has a decent screen), LTPS has become the dominant technology. Samsung is a huge player in smartphones and so it's going to keep OLED strong in the sector, but it can't stop the LCD buzzsaw.

3) This is small screen stuff, but it has ramifications for larger screens. OLED has yet to get anywhere in tablets. Ask yourself why it's going to given this trend. Ask yourself why it's going to make any progress in laptops (a shrinking market with increasingly less economic value). TFT-LCD took over the world on the back of massive scale economies. It doesn't appear to be losing them.

(Don't tell Art.)

Things dont need to change.

Samsung has capacity for 430 million 5" smartphones today. That is without the additional Gen 6 capacity that they have planned. The irony in the Displaysearch report is that it occurs just as Samsung is planning on moving OLED's into the mid-tiers and as various Chinese players begin ordering equipment for their own Gen 5.5 equipment.

The problem in tablets is that it has been difficult for OLED's to compete with models made using a-si. As the resolutions increase and tablets move to LTPS, the economics will change. As with smartphones, OLED's can compete just fine when manufactured on the same substrate material and size. Whether they actually become dominant in smartphones will depend on whether flexible/unbreakable displays become popular or if they can create a phosphorescent blue with a long lifetime. Those are the types of discontinuous innovation which are needed to actually replace LCD's.


Slacker
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post #25 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 11:03 AM
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Spot-on rogo, spot-on. Found just one error in the text: 'Sony will lose about $250 billion selling TVs this year'. Not that much they will loose but there is every
reason to believe Sony TV subsidiary is on its way of becoming brand sticker licensor to Chinese maufacturers.
Got this painfully to know since my wife started her love with the iPad mini Retina biggrin.gif. Now I am finding her in the living room on the sofa recliner with iPad on her knees watching TV reruns. IN FRONT of our 65" Sony sadly dark screen! According to her the big TV does not feel sexy anymore while iPad mini TV is cute, personal, and PQ is excellent :eek.: The future is high-density displays but of personal size.

The exact world I and a few others have been predicting on this forum for about 2 years. biggrin.gif Welcome aboard irkuck. It's going to be an interesting ride. Especially for Sony. They should lock down that Glyph tech you scooped in another thread. And fast. Integrate it into their HMZ project. And be off to the races with their next "Walkman" type Phenomenon. This time with video. All of their R&D need to be shifted to UHDTV personal Video. Headsets...cameras...mini ST projectors...PS phones...and integrated PS gaming tablets & consoles could fix a lot of their ills pretty fast on the high margin side.

While licensed panels could provide needed cash flow on their core side. I like where Sony is headed strategically right now. IMO the big nuggets in the future is in miniature...personal UHDTV...Blu Ray mini plug in devices...and 3D/VR Headsets. Your wife is ahead of the market right now. smile.gif But not for very long. That personal market is about to get a nuclear fuel injection from you know where. And Sony will be one of the winners in it IMO.
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post #26 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Spot-on rogo, spot-on. Found just one error in the text: 'Sony will lose about $250 billion selling TVs this year'. Not that much they will loose but there is every
reason to believe Sony TV subsidiary is on its way of becoming brand sticker licensor to Chinese maufacturers.
Got this painfully to know since my wife started her love with the iPad mini Retina biggrin.gif. Now I am finding her in the living room on the sofa recliner with iPad on her knees watching TV reruns. IN FRONT of our 65" Sony sadly dark screen! According to her the big TV does not feel sexy anymore while iPad mini TV is cute, personal, and PQ is excellent :eek.: The future is high-density displays but of personal size.

The exact world I and a few others have been predicting on this forum for about 2 years. biggrin.gif Welcome aboard irkuck. It's going to be an interesting ride. Especially for Sony. They should lock down that Glyph tech you scooped in another thread. And fast. Integrate it into their HMZ project. And be off to the races with their next "Walkman" type Phenomenon. This time with video. All of their R&D need to be shifted to UHDTV personal Video. Headsets...cameras...mini ST projectors...PS phones...and integrated PS gaming tablets & consoles could fix a lot of their ills pretty fast on the high margin side.

While licensed panels could provide needed cash flow on their core side. I like where Sony is headed strategically right now. IMO the big nuggets in the future is in miniature...personal UHDTV...Blu Ray mini plug in devices...and 3D/VR Headsets. Your wife is ahead of the market right now. smile.gif But not for very long. That personal market is about to get a nuclear fuel injection from you know where. And Sony will be one of the winners in it IMO.

Please excuse my ignorance, but from where???

-fafrd
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post #27 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 02:04 PM
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2) OLED is going to lose ground. This is not some half-cocked theory, it's based on the fact that LTPS has passed it already. Before, both LTPS and OLED were taking share from a-Si LCDs (the old kind, which didn't really allow for high-resolution screens). Now, as the move to "retina" displays in in full force and even affecting midrange and low-priced smartphones (like the Moto G, which has a decent screen), LTPS has become the dominant technology. Samsung is a huge player in smartphones and so it's going to keep OLED strong in the sector, but it can't stop the LCD buzzsaw.

You make good points, but it's just hard for me to acknowledge OLED will be losing ground given the expectation that Samsung will produce half a billion OLED displays in 2014.
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post #28 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 04:56 PM
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2) OLED is going to lose ground. This is not some half-cocked theory, it's based on the fact that LTPS has passed it already. Before, both LTPS and OLED were taking share from a-Si LCDs (the old kind, which didn't really allow for high-resolution screens). Now, as the move to "retina" displays in in full force and even affecting midrange and low-priced smartphones (like the Moto G, which has a decent screen), LTPS has become the dominant technology. Samsung is a huge player in smartphones and so it's going to keep OLED strong in the sector, but it can't stop the LCD buzzsaw.

You make good points, but it's just hard for me to acknowledge OLED will be losing ground given the expectation that Samsung will produce half a billion OLED displays in 2014.


Thats strange. I read that a person at Samsung stated that OLED wont be making an appearance for at least 2-3 years at best. Thats just what I read and heard anyway.
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post #29 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

As I look at the bigger picture it wouldn't have mattered if Sony would have gone OLED or not they are in deep trouble and they have been for awhile. I believe the only thing saving them right now is the Playstation consols. .

Sony is a conglomerate. They make good money in the content business and also things like finance and insurance.

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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Things dont need to change.

Samsung has capacity for 430 million 5" smartphones today. That is without the additional Gen 6 capacity that they have planned. The irony in the Displaysearch report is that it occurs just as Samsung is planning on moving OLED's into the mid-tiers and as various Chinese players begin ordering equipment for their own Gen 5.5 equipment.

So it is at all possible that DisplaySearch is right here or are you just certainly that because Samsung has all this capacity, they will ship more than 1/3 of smartphone screens by 2020?

I don't mean to be flip, but DisplaySearch does this kind of stuff for a living. Sure, they get it wrong sometimes. But they most definitely know exactly how much fab capacity Samsung has -- and everyone else too. They are using predictions of the smartphone market that are on the order of 1.5 billion+ annually (installed base headed for 6 billion, replacement cycles probably stretching out to an average of 3+ years).

I mean it's possible they are flat out wrong and OLED will take the lion's share of mobile phone displays. They say, "No, that won't happen, it'll be 30%." What's your number?
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The problem in tablets is that it has been difficult for OLED's to compete with models made using a-si. As the resolutions increase and tablets move to LTPS, the economics will change. As with smartphones, OLED's can compete just fine when manufactured on the same substrate material and size. Whether they actually become dominant in smartphones will depend on whether flexible/unbreakable displays become popular or if they can create a phosphorescent blue with a long lifetime. Those are the types of discontinuous innovation which are needed to actually replace LCD's.

OLED displays are more expensive than LTPS displays on mobile phones.

Granted, there are screen real estate differences here, but IHS has the iPhone 5 at $41 for display + touchscreen, the Galaxy S4 at $75 for the 5" high-res model. Even if we assume that it's a linear difference for real estate, the iPhone screen scaled up would be $10 cheaper. (And Apple usually uses more expensive touchscreens, so it may be a bigger gap.) $10 x 1.5 billion phone is a lot of freaking money.
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

You make good points, but it's just hard for me to acknowledge OLED will be losing ground given the expectation that Samsung will produce half a billion OLED displays in 2014.

See the math above. First of all, little ground is going to be lost in the short run (the market share for OLED only falls later in the decade). Second of all, what Samsung can produce and what people buy are not the same thing. Samsung could supply 100% of the mobile industry -- even at 2 billion units annually by decade's end. But they aren't going to have 100% share for a billion reasons. If the LTPS manufacturers sell for less and offer more (in terms of certain specific, desirable features), they will -- in fact -- win. And the additional benefit of scale economies LCD gets by also dominating tablets and laptops do not apply for OLED.

Mobile phone screens are already moving to 8G substrates. OLED is far behind that curve.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #30 of 144 Old 02-07-2014, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Please excuse my ignorance, but from where???

-fafrd

I meant that mobile will grow even faster as more miniature display breakthrough technology comes on stream like VR that expands usage of all applications and display techs like OLED. It's debatable whether it will be nuclear or just explosive. But it will make a lot of noise. And Sony is positioned to grow into it. Especially as they shed losers like Vaio and mid size screen HDTVs.
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