I saw 4K TV's today... Now I'm interested... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 02-08-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I went to Fry's today, and saw their selection of 4K displays. They had a couple of different Sony models, and a LG and a Samsung. The nice thing is, Sony has a 55 incher for 3 grand, that is pretty sweet if you ask me. If you buy it, you get $200 off their 4K Movie player thing. But yeah, it gets expensive quick. The movie player thing is kinda a ripoff if you think about it.

I'm really tempted to get one of these 3 grand 4K TV's, but I'm going to have to hold out for HDMI 2.0 .


Anybody know when Sony will have a 55 inch model with hdmi 2.0 ? (The one without the speakers on the sides).



By the way, I saw a Samsung, and it was showing regular TV, and it didn't look very good at all. The upscaling didn't seem to be doing much, unless the guy had it set up wrong or something. I still want to see OTA HDTV on these things, upconverted, and I want to see PS4 and XB1 on these things upconverted. I want to see Killzone in full 1080p upconverted to 4K, and Forza 5 in full 1080p upconverted to 4K. Will they look better, worse, or just different ? Or will it look pretty much the same ?


.
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post #2 of 59 Old 02-08-2014, 09:34 PM
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I think the 4k movie player thing and the upscaling comments which is going to be the mainstay for these 4k sets says it all.

I have made my comparisons side by side and I am not interested.

Content will be forever coming and we don't need more compression........we have too much on 1080p as is..............

When OTA, cable and sat broadcast tv catches up and fast enough internet becomes widely available call me.........

Until these things receive native resolution content they are a joke on the consumer as in a marketing gimmick.
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post #3 of 59 Old 02-08-2014, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post


Until these things receive native resolution content they are a joke on the consumer as in a marketing gimmick.


True, but you also have to consider that if you had a powerful enough gaming PC, you could actually run a lot of amazing games at 4K resolution. If you're a gamer, this could be a pretty huge thing, to be able to play the games in a much, much higher resolution. But yeah, in regards to Movies and TV shows in 4K, it will be slim pickens, and the Xbox One and PS4 games that never come to PC, won't be seen in 4K without upscaling.
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post #4 of 59 Old 02-09-2014, 04:07 AM
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Anthony, why not hold out for full HDMI 2.0, rec. 2020, 12 bit color and HDR? Unless you have to replace a broken set, I would wait.
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post #5 of 59 Old 02-09-2014, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

I want to see PS4 and XB1 on these things upconverted. I want to see Killzone in full 1080p upconverted to 4K, and Forza 5 in full 1080p upconverted to 4K. Will they look better, worse, or just different ? Or will it look pretty much the same ?
If you have the option of upscaling to 4K without any fancy upscaling algorithms, games can look pretty good. 720p x3 = 4K, and 1080p x2 = 4K, so nearest neighbor resampling means the games will look at good as if they were on a 720p or 1080p native display - that's better than a 1080p display where 720p games look really bad.

But I think Panasonic's 4K screens are currently the only ones with this option. Everyone else just uses their video-optimized scaling algorithms which do not look good with games.
I'd ditch the consoles and switch to PC gaming for native 4K rather than upscaling 720p/1080p.
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post #6 of 59 Old 02-09-2014, 11:26 PM
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Think about this too: With a 4K TV, you can toss the 3 x PH optimum viewing distance calculation we used for 1080p right out the window, because it’s now down to 1.5 x PH! You will be able to see a detail improvement only up to 2 times picture height.. Don't overlook this: If you want to see full 4K UHD resolution, you’d now better be parked no more than 3.5 feet away from the set and the conclusion: If you want to see real 4K resolution when actual 4K content becomes available, then prepare to shop for a set with a much, much bigger screen than you might already be considering.
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post #7 of 59 Old 02-09-2014, 11:55 PM
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^ ^ Except that optimum viewing distance is not the same as the viewing difference at which you will experience a meaningful improvement from 4k material, including the greater bit depth and colour gamut that is apparently coming. smile.gif
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post #8 of 59 Old 02-10-2014, 02:02 AM
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^ ^ Apparently biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 59 Old 02-10-2014, 04:27 AM
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Higher resolution and higher color bit depth will happen in the near future. This will be an improvement at all TV sizes.
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post #10 of 59 Old 02-10-2014, 04:32 AM
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HIgher bit depth would greatly improve 1080p as well.
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post #11 of 59 Old 02-10-2014, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

^ ^ Apparently biggrin.gif
Maybe you should go out and demo some 4K TVs rather than posting this crap all the time.
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post #12 of 59 Old 02-10-2014, 11:22 PM
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^^OK man, you are free to call names opinions some of the best gurus of the industry but their proofs are based on physics and are irrefutable for anybody who thinks rationally. There is no way to escape conclusion like this if somebody wants to soak juicy 4K pixels: Want to sit about 7 feet away from your new 4K TV? Now you’re in second mortgage territory, as you’ll need to get a budget-busting 110-inch model.

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post #13 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

^^OK man, you are free to call names opinions some of the best gurus of the industry but their proofs are based on physics and are irrefutable for anybody who thinks rationally. There is no way to escape conclusion like this if somebody wants to soak juicy 4K pixels: Want to sit about 7 feet away from your new 4K TV? Now you’re in second mortgage territory, as you’ll need to get a budget-busting 110-inch model.
I'll trust my eyes over what anyone else is claiming I should be able to see. The data they're using is clearly wrong.
And considering that a number of "industry experts" conveniently gloss over problems that I find to be a big deal with many displays, maybe we should be right to question them.

Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://hdguru.com/hdtvuhdtv-are-you-getting-the-complete-picture/#more-13164 

While I have not yet done a full-on review of a 4K TV here at home (I hope to get my hands on one of the newer 2014 models soon), I was able to spend a good chunk of quality time with video expert Joe Kane at a SMPTE conference in Hollywood last fall.
So now you're referring to "data" posted by someone that's taking another person's opinion rather than judging for themselves.

This is tiresome.
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post #14 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I'll trust my eyes over what anyone else is claiming I should be able to see. The data they're using is clearly wrong.
And considering that a number of "industry experts" conveniently gloss over problems that I find to be a big deal with many displays, maybe we should be right to question them.
Also:So now you're referring to "data" posted by someone that's taking another person's opinion rather than judging for themselves.
This is tiresome.

Your denial, when confronted with the facts by HD Guru, is grotesque. He is using test pictures which are stringent but provide reliable information about the viewing advantage of 4K. Real scenes are not as stringent and the content is compressed. Authority of Joe Kane is supporting the analysis as he reported earlier test with his home 4K TV, he had to move his sofa to 1.8 PH to see the benefit of 4K. There can be no other conclusion that benefits of 4K are starting becoming visible at 2 PH, they are evidently visible at 1.5 PH and maybe visible occasionally at 2-2.5 PH. One should be warning however that nonexperts can be tricked to think otherwise. The tricks include special picture processing in 4K with sopisticated noise reduction and enhancement of subjective PQ, playing uncompressed content at 4K and compressed content on 2K side-by-side display and so on.

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post #15 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

He is using test pictures which are stringent but provide reliable information about the viewing advantage of 4K.
And I haven't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Authority of Joe Kane is supporting the analysis as he reported earlier test with his home 4K TV, he had to move his sofa to 1.8 PH to see the benefit of 4K.
So because one person cannot see the benefits of 4K no-one can?
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

There can be no other conclusion that benefits of 4K are starting becoming visible at 2 PH, they are evidently visible at 1.5 PH and maybe visible occasionally at 2-2.5 PH.
So we have now gone from 1.5PH to 2.5PH. Well that's a start at least.
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

One should be warning however that nonexperts can be tricked to think otherwise. The tricks include special picture processing in 4K with sopisticated noise reduction and enhancement of subjective PQ, playing uncompressed content at 4K and compressed content on 2K side-by-side display and so on.
I'm very aware of the processing options available on many of these displays. I bypass everything in the display and use a HTPC for upscaling.

Consider this, however. If all these "tricks" improve the perceived image for you - then how is that not better? (they look worse to me though)
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post #16 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

And I haven't? So because one person cannot see the benefits of 4K no-one can?
So we have now gone from 1.5PH to 2.5PH. Well that's a start at least.
I'm very aware of the processing options available on many of these displays. I bypass everything in the display and use a HTPC for upscaling.
Consider this, however. If all these "tricks" improve the perceived image for you - then how is that not better? (they look worse to me though)

2.5PH is my stretching for occasional impressions and processing tricks just show better processing, not 4K. In the end relative merit of 4K vs. 2K could be judged only with compressed material using the same data bandwidth for 4K and 2K usiing the same advanced compression.

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post #17 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Authority of Joe Kane is supporting the analysis as he reported earlier test with his home 4K TV, he had to move his sofa to 1.8 PH to see the benefit of 4K.
But it's not as if anyone actually has to buy a bigger screen or move closer. We don't watch TV in a way that justifies the number of pixels we purchased -- we just want the picture to look good. With 4k sets, we won't have to worry about getting too close; that's all.

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post #18 of 59 Old 02-11-2014, 10:35 AM
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^^Point was if there are benefits of 4K at typical viewing distance. Anyway, 4K will be even in smartphones and so TV has to be there too.

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post #19 of 59 Old 02-12-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I'll trust my eyes over what anyone else is claiming I should be able to see. The data they're using is clearly wrong.
And considering that a number of "industry experts" conveniently gloss over problems that I find to be a big deal with many displays, maybe we should be right to question them.

Also:
So now you're referring to "data" posted by someone that's taking another person's opinion rather than judging for themselves.

This is tiresome.

Not exactly - he viewed an 85-inch 4K TV at that conference. The next sentence or two made it clear that the calculations were correct based on what he viewed.
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post #20 of 59 Old 02-16-2014, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Anthony, why not hold out for full HDMI 2.0, rec. 2020, 12 bit color and HDR? Unless you have to replace a broken set, I would wait.


Oh, I'm absolutely waiting for HDMI 2.0 .


As soon as there is a 3 grand or less set that is getting rave reviews by PC gamers, that has hdmi 2.0, then I'm going to be seriously interested in getting one, but until then I'm going to sit on the sidelines.



Somewhat off topic question: So the guy at the store said that the Sony 4K Movie box only works with Sony 4K TV's, is this true ? Seems kinda dumb that they would limit the market for that box to only their TV's. He also said the box comes preloaded with 10 full movies, which I was very skeptical of. Not sure the guy really knew what the heck he was talking about.
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post #21 of 59 Old 02-16-2014, 12:53 PM
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HDMI 2.0 may not be the answer. Unfortunately I don't think there's a publicly available spec yet, but some displays which are supposed to be using HDMI 2.0 this year are only implementing 60Hz with 4:2:0 chroma and not 4:4:4/RGB support. (unsuitable for game/PC use)
I wish other companies would add DisplayPort like Panasonic has. (or that Panasonic would make an LCD worth buying)
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post #22 of 59 Old 02-16-2014, 04:46 PM
 
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There's an LCD worth buying? Could've fooled me. biggrin.gif Soz, that's a burn I couldn't resist. In all seriousness, anything that can match or beat the overall performance of the Sharp Elite might fit the bill. I refuse to settle for anything less (blooming is a far worse offense than slightly off color).
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post #23 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

HDMI 2.0 may not be the answer. Unfortunately I don't think there's a publicly available spec yet, but some displays which are supposed to be using HDMI 2.0 this year are only implementing 60Hz with 4:2:0 chroma and not 4:4:4/RGB support. (unsuitable for game/PC support)


Two things.


1. How do I find out if a particular display uses 4:2:0 chroma or 4:4:4/RGB support ?

2. Do you have a link that explains in more detail about this problem ?


I'm very curious about this, because if I did get a 4K display, the biggest reason for me getting it would be playing PC games at 4K. So, I'd have to make sure that whatever display I'm getting will work great for PC games. Truth be told, I'm probably going to wait until sometime in 2015 to allow things to settle down, and hopefully have a better idea of whats going on. I'm not going to be building the gaming PC (to use with the 4K) until the prices really come down on the GPU's and more advanced GPU's come out. I'll be waiting at least one year from now regardless, so I probably should just forget all about this for about one year and the revisit it.
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post #24 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 01:49 PM
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^ re 1. Not sure about this but the 420 8 bit etc. follows 3820x2160 p60 in the detail Sony spec for the 950B. My speculation is that is a requirement of the HDMI 2.0 spec that if it's the "lite" version they have to include this.
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post #25 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 02:00 PM
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I am enjoying my Samsung 65F9000 today. It is all about how you approach things. My approach is that there is no guarantee that I will wake up tomorrow morning.
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post #26 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

1. How do I find out if a particular display uses 4:2:0 chroma or 4:4:4/RGB support ?
You normally have to wait for reviews or people to actually buy the set. But on Sony's spec page for the 2014 models, they all listed 4K at 60Hz using 4:2:0 subsampling.
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Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

2. Do you have a link that explains in more detail about this problem ?
Nothing specific about 4K. But here's an example of a Kuro displaying content in its PC mode (4:4:4/RGB) and then in its video mode. (4:2:0)
IAtaoU4.pngG8FBl1m.png
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Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

I'm very curious about this, because if I did get a 4K display, the biggest reason for me getting it would be playing PC games at 4K. So, I'd have to make sure that whatever display I'm getting will work great for PC games. Truth be told, I'm probably going to wait until sometime in 2015 to allow things to settle down, and hopefully have a better idea of whats going on. I'm not going to be building the gaming PC (to use with the 4K) until the prices really come down on the GPU's and more advanced GPU's come out. I'll be waiting at least one year from now regardless, so I probably should just forget all about this for about one year and the revisit it.
It will probably have been sorted by 2015.
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post #27 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 05:07 PM
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Last i looked Samsung was advertising its 4k Tvs to have 2.0 on their website.


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post #28 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 08:01 PM
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I spent about 2 hours at the Sony store in Houston viewing the Sony 84" UHD TV a few months ago.

Today I spend about 30 minutes at Best Buy viewing another Sony 55" model.

Both sets were using a demo aimed at making 4K really shine.

At anything approaching normal viewing distances, I was terribly unimpressed with either set. There was a huge jump from SD to HD. But there is only a marginal visual improvement going from HD to UHD. I was very let down by what I saw. I'm personally much, much more excited for the Dolby HDR, 10 bit color, and next years glasses-less 3D tech. The only reason we are even seeing manufacturers push 4K is because the production process for large panel OLED sets could never be optimized to a mass market. They had to push something and 4K was the only thing left to try.
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post #29 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 08:17 PM
 
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If it doesn't take, well, then a bloodbath will ensue (hell, is ensuing) for most of the players.
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post #30 of 59 Old 02-17-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post

At anything approaching normal viewing distances, I was terribly unimpressed with either set. There was a huge jump from SD to HD. But there is only a marginal visual improvement going from HD to UHD. I was very let down by what I saw. I'm personally much, much more excited for the Dolby HDR, 10 bit color, and next years glasses-less 3D tech. The only reason we are even seeing manufacturers push 4K is because the production process for large panel OLED sets could never be optimized to a mass market. They had to push something and 4K was the only thing left to try.
10-bit color is going to be a far more subtle change than 4K.
Glasses-free 3D is never going to do well with the current technologies. It severely limits resolution and viewing angles. As you increase the number of viewing positions, you divide up the screen resolution further, and further impact 2D image quality.
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If it doesn't take, well, then a bloodbath will ensue (hell, is ensuing) for most of the players.
Few people are going to be replacing their current displays with 4K or OLED displays. The future is quite concerning for the type of people that visit forums such as this.
We all want high-end displays, but few of us want to be early adopters of 4K or OLEDs, and it will be years before those displays reach maturity - if the companies don't abandon them or go out of business first.
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