LG 55EA9800 OLED TV: A Brief Critical Look - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Unfortunately LG cannot produce an affordable OLED, nor does it have Samsung's marketing budget. If Samsung fields a complete lineup of curved LCDs... wait, it just did... then LG will have to compete against that and Vizio's cheaper flat UHD models in the immediate future.

Four years from now, I suspect China will do to LG and Samsung what those companies did to the Japanese TV makers.

I think you are jumping to conclusions regarding LG and affordable. We have to wait and see whether their 8G production plant currently under construction is successful in producing high yields and lowing production costs significantly. We should have a much better idea if LG and OLED are going to be successful by mid 2015.
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post #182 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 05:18 AM
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imagic

How does content figure into HDR capability?

Is this one of those things where content has to be encoded for HDR?

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #183 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

so samsung has no oled sets and oled is dead


samsung has to be gagging on their hubris right now as lg is selling the best
display tech and they got nada


excuse me if I'm not in panic mode yet, but unless lg has the exclusive rights to the one
and only way to manufacture oled displays this size I don't think
it's doa


don't think the Chinese companies are walking away right now

 

I'm sure the Chinese companies are thrilled that curved LCD is technically feasible on a mass-production scale; it means there will be curved Chinese LCD-based TVs soon enough, which is not going to happen with OLED.


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post #184 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post


I think you are jumping to conclusions regarding LG and affordable. We have to wait and see whether their 8G production plant currently under construction is successful in producing high yields and lowing production costs significantly. We should have a much better idea if LG and OLED are going to be successful by mid 2015.

It's an easy conclusion to jump to, but I'm not totally discouraged. It's just that OLED's track record is spotty and there's no indication that prices will drop like a rock anytime soon—plus it's not clear if the majority of consumers can be sold on its benefits. I'm still hopeful that LG can pull it off, but right now Samsung's market share is over 50% in the 60-inch and larger category.


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post #185 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

OLED wins in the inky blacks department but there's also a lot to be said for Dolby Vision, it provides a drastic improvement over current color and dynamic range.

Everyone's eyes are capable of handling a sunny day, HDR-enabled TVs are in no way harmful. However the technology does come much closer to making a TV's picture look like reality. It's actually quite amazing.

I admit to being very sceptical about this Dolby Tech. Dont most people watch movies in a darkened environment? Or am I in the minority. I get my TV and my projector as dim as I can and still get eyestrain from the TV because I can't calibrate it like I can my PJ.

I still don't see anthing touching OLED for movie watching in the dark, which IMO is the only way to get the fully immersive experience.

The Dolby Tech will sure look nice in the store though, and Sports.
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^I'm with you. I can only imagine the increased eyestrain that would be caused by DV for us "batcave" fiends. I guess increasing ambient lighting would help offset it, but that in and of itself takes away from the immersion one would otherwise achieve.
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post #187 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post


I admit to being very sceptical about this Dolby Tech. Dont most people watch movies in a darkened environment? Or am I in the minority. I get my TV and my projector as dim as I can and still get eyestrain from the TV because I can't calibrate it like I can my PJ.

I still don't see anthing touching OLED for movie watching in the dark, which IMO is the only way to get the fully immersive experience.

The Dolby Tech will sure look nice in the store though, and Sports.

 

That's not what it's about. Any and all displays can benefit from wider dynamic range, and at it's best the color grading is done by a pro—movies are what benefit the most from HDR.

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post #188 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^I'm with you. I can only imagine the increased eyestrain that would be caused by DV for us "batcave" fiends. I guess increasing ambient lighting would help offset it, but that in and of itself takes away from the immersion one would otherwise achieve.

 

Really and truly, current video standards are not adequate to represent reality on a screen. Colors are muted, the picture looks flat. Compared to HDR that is.


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post #189 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 08:23 AM
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LG´s InnoFest 2014 press conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ax7hv6R3uTU
Quote:
That's not what it's about. Any and all displays can benefit from wider dynamic range, and at it's best the color grading is done by a pro—movies are what benefit the most from HDR.

The dynamic range of a picture depends firstly on camera sensor capability and what´s done in postprocessing. Dolby´s HDR is nothing new. It´s LD-LED with a wider color range and some software tricks but black level is still limited on LCD. Brightness was never a concern about LCD. OLED is the best high dynamic range display technology available now and it also has a wider color range from the start.

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there's no indication that prices will drop like a rock anytime soon

From $10000 to $5000? The new 55EB9600 starts at 5000€ (EA9809 was 9000€, as EA9709 now available for 6000€ and in May for 5000€). That´s a massive price drop.
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post #190 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

LG´s InnoFest 2014 press conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ax7hv6R3uTU
The dynamic range of a picture depends firstly on camera sensor capability and what´s done in postprocessing. Dolby´s HDR is nothing new. It´s LD-LED with a wider color range and some software tricks but black level is still limited on LCD. Brightness was never a concern about LCD. OLED is the best high dynamic range display technology available now and it also has a wider color range from the start.
From $10000 to $5000? The new 55EB9600 starts at 5000€ (EA9809 was 9000€, as EA9709 now available for 6000€ and in May for 5000€). That´s a massive price drop.

 

Absolutely it is sensor and post processing-dependent; I've been shooting and processing HDR imagery for fifteen years, I've been waiting for displays that can properly render those sort of images. The concepts may be old, but the implementation at CES 2014 was new.

 

I agree OLED has the greatest PQ potential and I can't wait to see a HDR-capable OLED display.

 

You are right, OLED has dropped in price—dramatically. I hope the trend continues, in fact I hope it accelerates. 


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post #191 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's an easy conclusion to jump to, but I'm not totally discouraged. It's just that OLED's track record is spotty and there's no indication that prices will drop like a rock anytime soon

You mean like the 66% price reduction of the LG OLED in less than a year(15k to 5k)?

What is your definition of dropping like a rock?
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post #192 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's a great idea. Let's see, I guess I will need a room. How about something like 14' x 22', or 308 sq. feet. Around here that would cost North of $154K.
How about the top of your driveway? In cold weather, you could sit in your car to watch. There could be speakers on long cords you'd pull inside the car and hang on the rolled up car windows. In fact, this is somehow hauntingly familiar...
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post #193 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

... but black level is still limited on LCD. Brightness was never a concern about LCD.
But it's contrast that matters. A dimly lit area will look black if it's near a very bright area. And regarding contrast as a ratio, brightness/blackness, obviously suggests two ways of increasing contrast: lower blackness or increase brightness. OLED is good at the former; LCD/LED is good at the latter -- for OLED, the jury is out on brightness.

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post #194 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If Apple was interested in losing money I'm sure it would jump right into the TV building business.

Except Apple can put a piece of fruit on the bottom of the panel and charge 25% more than everyone else and people will buy it thinking its chic.
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post #195 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
 

 

And here I thought you did know everything!:D All of the new curved LCD units from Sammy are edgelit except for the 21:9 105-inch beast.

 

If Apple was interested in losing money I'm sure it would jump right into the TV building business.

 

Apple has jumped into a few other cutthroat businesses and managed to steal all the profits. I don't see Apple going OLED though, if they make a TV, they'll do it because they feel it is the ultimate TV and millions will buy it. OLED supply would never be able to keep up.


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post #196 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
 

 

Absolutely it is sensor and post processing-dependent; I've been shooting and processing HDR imagery for fifteen years, I've been waiting for displays that can properly render those sort of images. The concepts may be old, but the implementation at CES 2014 was new.

 

I agree OLED has the greatest PQ potential and I can't wait to see a HDR-capable OLED display.

 

You are right, OLED has dropped in price—dramatically. I hope the trend continues, in fact I hope it accelerates. 

 

Isn't an OLED technically capable of HDR even today, in a dark room at least? I mean it can do peak brightness of 330 nits, while about a 100 nits are recommended for dark-room viewing. So given that most of the movie runs between 0 and 100 nits, with the possibility of a few highlights here and there going up to 330 nits. That's almost 2 more stops of brightness. How many more stops does Dolby Vision call for?


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post #197 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mfogarty5 View Post


You mean like the 66% price reduction of the LG OLED in less than a year(15k to 5k)?

What is your definition of dropping like a rock?

Within one year, reaching parity at any given screen size, when compared to LED-lit LCDs. OLED started in the stratosphere.


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post #198 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 10:01 AM
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Except Apple can put a piece of fruit on the bottom of the panel and charge 25% more than everyone else and people will buy it thinking its chic.

 

Even that is proving difficult to sustain, there are lots of great options out there these days, even in the markets where Apple excels.


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post #199 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post

... That's almost 2 more stops of brightness. How many more stops does Dolby Vision call for?
I haven't seen a specific number. More. Mike Rockwell says:
Quote:
When you combine all those ratios [for darker and brighter areas of the screen], you find that a high-quality display should be capable of a contrast ratio of 100,000:1 or more.
Is your TV bright enough?

(I think we need a better measure of contrast than a simple ratio.)

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post #200 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Masterbrew2 View Post
 

 

Isn't an OLED technically capable of HDR even today, in a dark room at least? I mean it can do peak brightness of 330 nits, while about a 100 nits are recommended for dark-room viewing. So given that most of the movie runs between 0 and 100 nits, with the possibility of a few highlights here and there going up to 330 nits. That's almost 2 more stops of brightness. How many more stops does Dolby Vision call for?

 

I'll talk to Dolby about stuff like that on Monday, so stay tuned. At CES I brought it up, and the basic answer is that most TVs built today—including OLED—have enough brightness capability to take at least partial advantage of Dolby Vision. 


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post #201 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 10:24 AM
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Could that (all) OLED possibly be too bright?

"On the other end of the brightness scale, the LG put out plenty of light—in fact, bright scenes were almost painful to my eyes. Tom said the peak-white level was around 30 foot-lamberts with the OLED Light control (similar to an LCD TV's backlight control) set to 20 out of 100. Amazingly, he reported that he was able to obtain 30 fL of peak white in 3D mode with the OLED Light control maxed out. Unfortunately, we didn't watch any 3D content."

I usually watch my Samsung (non LED) LCD in a dark room. I set my backlight to 3 out of 10. If this thing almost hurts your eyes at the equivalent of 2 out of 10, I'm thinking I could never get it dim enough to be comfortable to me.

Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Within one year, reaching parity at any given screen size, when compared to LED-lit LCDs. OLED started in the stratosphere.

It took LCD 30 years so I think OLED's off to a pretty good start.
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Could that (all) OLED possibly be too bright?
If you mean in peak brightness, no. Read Dolby Vision: the future of TV is really, really bright.

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Originally Posted by vaktmestern View Post

Heres a few poor phone cam pictures i took sorry of the poor quality but it looks sharper n better in real life.. cool.gif in shop light...

[URL=http://temporary-20.jpg

[URL=http://
temporary-16.jpg

[URL=http://
temporary-15.jpg

[URL=http://
temporary-19.jpg

[URL=http://
temporary-21.jpg
I was in BB today and I saw that display it blew all other TV's in the store even the 4K ones.
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If you mean in peak brightness, no. Read Dolby Vision: the future of TV is really, really bright.

Yeah, but I don't sit in a pitch black room, coated in in black velvet and stare out of a window into a brilliant day. I guess our man caves will have to start getting brighter in order for us to avoid migraines.
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post #206 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 11:07 AM
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Yep, it was calibrated by Tom Norton, who has done hundreds of calibrations.
I am sure you are right, I would guess this is his first OLED ? How much time did he spend on it ?

---I know chad had both of the best meters out, Calibration was performed with a Jeti 1211 spectroradiometer, along with Klein K-10a (thanks Buzz!) and X-Rite i1D3 colorimeters, both profiled off the reference Jeti spectro. ( Chad was lent the one meter as most calibrators will not have both. )

---Chad also spent about 9-12 hours with the unit if I call correctly.

His review is here >>>> http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493578/lg-55ea9800-55-oled-owners-thread#post_23909622


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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

So i told him that the picture looks like crap, the curve is stupid and makes the TV look like a big Pringles potato chip and good luck getting anyone to buy it at $6,000 tongue.gif
Lets face it, that a high price anyway........
.
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post #207 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rr6966 View Post

I will buy my next TV when I can get a 65" OLED 4k for around $3000 -$4000. biggrin.gif


When do you think we'll be able to buy a 75 inch or so OLED 4K for $14K?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr6966 View Post

I will buy my next TV when I can get a 65" OLED 4k for around $3000 -$4000. biggrin.gif


When do you think we'll be able to buy a 75 inch or so OLED 4K for $14K?

 

I'm betting sooner than that 65" he mentions for $3000-$4000.


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post #209 of 285 Old 03-21-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

And here I thought you did know everything!biggrin.gif

Mark H. I think there is now officially too much to know! smile.gif I can't keep up on things I genuinely have no interest in!
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 All of the new curved LCD units from Sammy are edgelit except for the 21:9 105-inch beast.

Thanks. I'll bet dollars to donuts (I have no idea what that expression means for example!) that the brightness uniformity is inferior on the curved ones than on the equivalent flat ones. The light guides are going to be a new type and maintaining tolerances across a curve will be harder.
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If Apple was interested in losing money I'm sure it would jump right into the TV building business.

So there's a huge fallacy there. I'd assume Apple would only sell its TVs through its own retail channels. That's basically a 25% margin solution right there... If Sony could stop using third-party retail and had stores where it could just add TVs without cannibalizing important retail space, it would suddenly becoming profitable, too.

Let's agree this is a fantasy thought experiment for the moment but assume Apple sell (1) only high-end TVs (2) grows to 20% share over time. That market is very (very!) roughly 5 million units right now for Apple. It's also a market where Apple might offer a total of 2 SKUs (55 and 65?!?) for $2000 and $3000. The ASP would probably be $2200 or so. That's $11,000,000,000 worth of TVs with a gross margin that would be in the 20s. Apple would absolutely, positively make money doing this.

Now, there are reasons why it's still not hugely interesting. The turnover of TVs is close to 8 years -- about twice as bad as computers. But there are reasons why it is appealing. Apple doesn't sell a ton of computers, either, but it sells the world's most profitable ones. Just assume that Apple customers would pay a premium (a few hundred dollars) for Apple-designed TVs with Apple-made UIs and built-in Apple ecosystem stuff. Why would they do this? Because they'd be buying a high-end TV anyway and they like Apple stuff that works beautifully with their other Apple stuff... And the premium is something they find tolerable.

And before someone chimes in with some dumbass remark about Apple stuff being overpriced junk, the same kind of logic is why people buy nice cars, nice clothes, nice furniture, nice food and about 10 million other nice things.

It's not completely impossible to imagine Apple eventually taking 1/3 of the high-end TV market, which could eventually be a 30+ million unit market annually. Now we're talking north of $20 billion annually and possibly gross margins of $4-5 billion.

While I'm hugely bearish on TV generally, I'm pretty confident (a) ~200 million TVs will be selling for years to come (b) a good chunk of them will be high end (c) transitioning Apple's customers to buy an Apple-branded TV for a reasonable premium is hardly a leap of logic -- especially if the premium really just means "this costs as much as the best TV from Samsung" (d) the Japanese brands are about to all exit the market, leaving a huge opening.

I think the argument that Apple would lose money because Sony and Panasonic do is facile. A better argument is that Apple might never get enough sales to justify the effort required, especially if it sees "dumb screen plus small smart box" as the future. And since it has to sell the small smart box, that could undermine a push to sell the pricey screens. Of course, it hasn't stopped the company from selling pricey monitors for 30 years.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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Originally Posted by bigcoupe2003 View Post

Even a d nice tweaked 141 still would not cut it on a black level comparison because the OLED goes absolute black and because the kuro no kuro could ever achieve this it will pale in comparison you would probably see those blacks look grey just like the ZT

D-Nice calibrated my 141 twice since I owned it. The first time, he was able to get black at 0.0005 ft/L; the second time was the charm, with black level somewhere between 0.0001 ft/L and immeasurable on his meter. It's still not pitch black, but it's nice enough so that I can certainly live with it another few years and not be disappointed with any program material I've seen. I suspect that when OLED comes in 4K 70" sizes at a somewhat less stratospheric price than the current 55" models, the 141 will finally move from the living room to the bedroom.

I consider myself lucky; he said that it's pretty much the luck of the draw as to how far down he can take a given 141.
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