TV with no motion problems whatsoever? Do they exist? Help please - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 04-22-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I desperately need help in determining what TV to buy, or if I should even buy a TV at all at the moment. My problem is as follows:

I did minimal research on a TV that would be the best for gaming and settled on the Sony KDL W850a. My first choice was the W900a, but it was not available at my time of purchase, not to mention I really wanted a 65". I have to admit that while I was at BestBuy, I was not very impressed or wowed at the picture of the W850a. However, I made the mistake of brushing aside my initial concern and told myself that it would look better after tweaking it back at home. Well, it looked even horrible out of the box, but after adjusting the settings I was welcomed with a very nice picture indeed. However, one major problem still remained; the way it handled motion. I disabled all motion "enhancements" (if you can even call it that) as well as the "noise reduction" and settings such as those. The motion improved somewhat, but the blur, trailing, judder, or whatever it's called, was still noticeable to me. It was not smooth. Fast action scenes were hard to focus on what was actual happening, cameras panning were a nightmare, etc. This is with all kinds of media; cable, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. I don't know what to do. Maybe I just have a very sensitive eye for motion problems, or maybe they aren't "problems" but just inherent with TV in general.

 

Anyway, I am still within my grace period to return the TV. So I went back to BestBuy and decided to actually take my time and view the other TVs. I went in after doing some more research and thought I was going to walk out with a Plasma, as everything I have read seemed to state they were the better technology for handling motion. However, after seeing the highly rated and praised Samsung F8500, I was not very impressed. The picture was fantastic, but the motion was still on par with any LCD/LED that I saw. Fast moving scenes were still not easily focusable to my eye. And yes, I spent three hours at BestBuy yesterday, manipulating the settings, but nothing I did got the TV to where I wanted it. What a disappointment...

 

The only TVs that really wowed me were the 4k sets. They seemed to handle motion very well. Almost like I was looking out a window at the action. The picture was obviously much better, even from long distances away I could tell a difference between normal 1080p. Obviously, a 4k picture is not conducive to what lesser material is going to look like so I asked the clerk at BestBuy to put in different material to one of the Sony 4k's and he agreed. First, was the Hobbit on 1080p, which looked incredible, and I noticed no motion problems whatsoever except for maybe a slight "Soap Opera Effect". However, wasn't the Hobbit filmed in 48fps or something to that effect? Anyway, the motion itself was very fluid and easy to decipher the action. I asked the clerk to put in a normal DVD so I could see what it would look like, expecting to be very disappointed. He put in a DVD of Superman, and expectedly, the picture was not as crisp as the other movie, but it was still however on par with the other HDTVs in terms of how it displayed the same image. I did notice some slight motion issues, however, it seemed to handle motion the best out of every TV I have seen. So I don't really know what I should do... I just want a TV that is going to handle fast action scenes. Be it gaming or a movie. I will sacrifice some picture quality if only to get rid of this cursed motion problem I keep seeing.

 

Is it just me? Or am I really seeing a problem in most sets? Any help would be appreciated.

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post #2 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 04:26 AM
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With your W850a you need to set MotionFlow to one of the "Clear" modes, or "Impulse". (Impulse being most suited to games)

You say that you're watching Blu-ray and DVD, but are you actually watching Blu-ray and DVD or compressed pirate copies?
Because I've seen people say one thing when they mean another, and it was the terrible compression that was causing problems.

If you don't like how motion is with the W850a set to "Impulse" then I don't know that there are any better options today, other than a LightBoost monitor.
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post #3 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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No, I'm watching the real deal. I actually do have the TV set on impulse mode and it has made a significant difference but I'm still not 100% satisfied. I actually changed to impulse after reading the article on blurbuster's website, but I also seem to recall that the w850a was not listed on the group of TVs they mention as far as handling motion with motionflow settings. Something about it not working quite the same on this TV?
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post #4 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 06:53 AM
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There was a interesting conversation about blur and motion recently, here. - Go DLP smile.gif
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post #5 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

There was a interesting conversation about blur and motion recently, here. - Go DLP smile.gif

 

^^^There was still talk of transition times in that thread that bother me.  GtG is just not the cause of this stuff any longer unless you're on a horrendously low end set.


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post #6 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MonroeJ View Post

...the blur, trailing, judder, or whatever it's called, was still noticeable to me. It was not smooth.
It would be helpful if you could describe what you're seeing.

Is it motion blur? Objects "going out of focus" when they move.
Is it compression artifacts? Objects turning into blocks of pixels as they move.
Is it judder? The image stuttering when the camera pans.
Is it trailing? The image smearing behind objects that move across the screen, but details are still visible.

Is it something else? E.g. double-images when things move.
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There was a interesting conversation about blur and motion recently, here. - Go DLP smile.gif
DLP is awful for motion handling. It may not have blur caused by response times, but it has all sort of other artifacts due to the way that it works. (DLP "rainbows" for one thing)
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^^^There was still talk of transition times in that thread that bother me. GtG is just not the cause of this stuff any longer unless you're on a horrendously low end set.
A lot of the people that hang about in the display calibration forum don't seem to keep up with the latest advances in technology - particularly with LCD panels.
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post #7 of 19 Old 04-23-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It would be helpful if you could describe what you're seeing.

Is it motion blur? Objects "going out of focus" when they move.
Is it compression artifacts? Objects turning into blocks of pixels as they move.
Is it judder? The image stuttering when the camera pans.
Is it trailing? The image smearing behind objects that move across the screen, but details are still visible.

Is it something else? E.g. double-images when things move.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't know exactly how to describe it. I just know that something is off. Like I said, images do not move fluidly in fast action scenes, or quick pans of a camera. I suppose the actual distortion that I see is more along the lines of the first two comments you made; motion blur (faces and limbs seem to lose focus in quick scenes) and/or compression artifacts (blocks of pixels sometimes replace the actual blur, or are there along with it).

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post #8 of 19 Old 04-24-2014, 07:10 AM
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Problems with quick camera pans may be inherent in the source material, especially if you are talking about movies. The 24 frames per second at which almost all movies are captured via the original movie camera is simply not a fast enough rate to handle truly rapid motion and especially fast camera pans. If you do a frame by frame move through one of these cases, you will see that many of the frames are blurred. Generally movie cameramen try to avoid fast pans because of this but this isn't always the case. There is really nothing that can be done about this kind of motion defect. It is baked into the source.

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post #9 of 19 Old 04-24-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

Problems with quick camera pans may be inherent in the source material, especially if you are talking about movies. The 24 frames per second at which almost all movies are captured via the original movie camera is simply not a fast enough rate to handle truly rapid motion and especially fast camera pans. If you do a frame by frame move through one of these cases, you will see that many of the frames are blurred. Generally movie cameramen try to avoid fast pans because of this but this isn't always the case. There is really nothing that can be done about this kind of motion defect. It is baked into the source.

 

People say this, and every time I check, those pans you're talking about just do not look bad on a CRT.  I'm not saying that it's entirely untrue: shutters are open during the motion, but it's just not what everyone seems to think it is.  Plus, going frame by frame on a progressive scan movie (don't try this on interlaced), I more often than not get much clearer effects than expected.  It's just does not happen as much as people think.  Or talk about.


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post #10 of 19 Old 04-24-2014, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I'm seeing a combination of everything mentioned here. Blur by the set itself as well as blur that's already on the film / source material.

 

But like tgm1024 said, I just have never noticed these problems before on my old CRT. Maybe that is another thing to consider. All of my friends and family I have had over to look at the TV either claim they can't see anything wrong, or they just give me the "that's normal, don't let it bother you" talk. These same people made the transition from CRT to flat panels back in the early 2000's when flat panels first came to be. I, however, held strong onto my CRT up until maybe 2008 or so. So maybe my friends and family have just had more time to become accustomed to the blur, while I can still pick up on it?

 

Anyway, I appreciate the comments. I'll probably end up returning the TV and just holding out until something really catches my eye. No point in spending $2k if I'm not completely happy with it...

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post #11 of 19 Old 04-24-2014, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonroeJ View Post

I think I'm seeing a combination of everything mentioned here. Blur by the set itself as well as blur that's already on the film / source material.

But like tgm1024 said, I just have never noticed these problems before on my old CRT. Maybe that is another thing to consider. All of my friends and family I have had over to look at the TV either claim they can't see anything wrong, or they just give me the "that's normal, don't let it bother you" talk. These same people made the transition from CRT to flat panels back in the early 2000's when flat panels first came to be. I, however, held strong onto my CRT up until maybe 2008 or so. So maybe my friends and family have just had more time to become accustomed to the blur, while I can still pick up on it?

Anyway, I appreciate the comments. I'll probably end up returning the TV and just holding out until something really catches my eye. No point in spending $2k if I'm not completely happy with it...
Most CRT were smaller so things weren't as noticeable. There are motion artifacts that you can see in film projection and because it's a bigger than most Tv's really stand out. The problem predates HDTV broadcasting, I first saw it when we got satellite TV, kind of a strobing effect, once you see it you start to notice it in films on a big screen too. Blur is also there, but it's a lot easier to ignore.
In time you develop an ability to see past these things, it will come, it will drive you nuts in the short term. Just know you're not alone.

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post #12 of 19 Old 04-24-2014, 09:14 PM
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Just curious, did you play with the settings on the Samsung F8500? Some manufactures are incorporating the same type of effects in Plasmas as the do in LCD sets. Seems for whatever reason a group of the population like the SOE settings, and set makes are glad to comply. Owning both plasma and LCD I find motion much more realistic on the plasmas than the LCDs, which when tamed are not too bad.
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post #13 of 19 Old 04-27-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

People say this, and every time I check, those pans you're talking about just do not look bad on a CRT.  I'm not saying that it's entirely untrue: shutters are open during the motion, but it's just not what everyone seems to think it is.  Plus, going frame by frame on a progressive scan movie (don't try this on interlaced), I more often than not get much clearer effects than expected.  It's just does not happen as much as people think.  Or talk about.
There are a few things to keep in mind here though;

The only displays with 2ms persistence right now are LightBoost monitors. These are able to achieve 2ms persistence because they run at 120Hz or 144Hz natively. (the PC supplies 120/144fps content to the display)
2ms persistence at 60Hz would result in unacceptable flicker and loss of brightness. (for most people other than the most hardcore gamers)

At 120/144Hz, 2ms persistence also assumes that the panel is able to complete a transition in less than 6.3/4.9ms, which is probably not true across all color transitions for any LCD.
Most of the motion blur we see today is due to persistence, but not all of it.

I do wonder what kind of CRT you were looking at though, if you are describing "smooth pans" - no direct view CRT that I am aware of was able to accept a 24Hz signal and run at 48/72Hz. (you can try this out with a PC monitor, and some projectors would do it though)
So panning was never smooth on the majority of them when watching films - you would have 3:2 judder.
And even at 48Hz - which is something I've tested - you still have judder introduced from the repeated frames.
The only time you would get smooth panning is playing a 60fps game on one.

Another issue with CRTs is that if they are adjusted so that the brightness turns the bias off (no light output at all) you then get huge streaks across the screen if anything is moving over a black background.
You need to raise the brightness enough to have a non-zero black level for good motion handling. (and even then there is usually some trailing)
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post #14 of 19 Old 04-28-2014, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

People say this, and every time I check, those pans you're talking about just do not look bad on a CRT.  I'm not saying that it's entirely untrue: shutters are open during the motion, but it's just not what everyone seems to think it is.  Plus, going frame by frame on a progressive scan movie (don't try this on interlaced), I more often than not get much clearer effects than expected.  It's just does not happen as much as people think.  Or talk about.
There are a few things to keep in mind here though;

The only displays with 2ms persistence right now are LightBoost monitors. These are able to achieve 2ms persistence because they run at 120Hz or 144Hz natively. (the PC supplies 120/144fps content to the display)
2ms persistence at 60Hz would result in unacceptable flicker and loss of brightness. (for most people other than the most hardcore gamers)

At 120/144Hz, 2ms persistence also assumes that the panel is able to complete a transition in less than 6.3/4.9ms, which is probably not true across all color transitions for any LCD.
Most of the motion blur we see today is due to persistence, but not all of it.

I do wonder what kind of CRT you were looking at though, if you are describing "smooth pans" - no direct view CRT that I am aware of was able to accept a 24Hz signal and run at 48/72Hz. (you can try this out with a PC monitor, and some projectors would do it though)
So panning was never smooth on the majority of them when watching films - you would have 3:2 judder.

 

You're misunderstanding me.  Forget the 2-3 telecine judder.  I wasn't saying the pans were perfect.  I was saying that it's not the case that the ugly blur you see on a pan is mostly baked into the signal.  It's something people like to say a lot, but when you sit down and try to analyze what's causing the effect, you'll see it's just not there substantially.  The CRT's I was comparing this to are absolutely nothing special.  Pull-down artifacts and all.....the pans aren't that bad on a CRT: the culprit with the pans is almost entirely the same sample-and-hold persistence problem as before.  There is some blur in each frame, but it's just not the bulk of the problem.


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post #15 of 19 Old 04-28-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

People say this, and every time I check, those pans you're talking about just do not look bad on a CRT.  I'm not saying that it's entirely untrue: shutters are open during the motion, but it's just not what everyone seems to think it is.  Plus, going frame by frame on a progressive scan movie (don't try this on interlaced), I more often than not get much clearer effects than expected.  It's just does not happen as much as people think.  Or talk about.
There are a few things to keep in mind here though;

The only displays with 2ms persistence right now are LightBoost monitors. These are able to achieve 2ms persistence because they run at 120Hz or 144Hz natively. (the PC supplies 120/144fps content to the display)
2ms persistence at 60Hz would result in unacceptable flicker and loss of brightness. (for most people other than the most hardcore gamers)

At 120/144Hz, 2ms persistence also assumes that the panel is able to complete a transition in less than 6.3/4.9ms, which is probably not true across all color transitions for any LCD.
Most of the motion blur we see today is due to persistence, but not all of it.

I do wonder what kind of CRT you were looking at though, if you are describing "smooth pans" - no direct view CRT that I am aware of was able to accept a 24Hz signal and run at 48/72Hz. (you can try this out with a PC monitor, and some projectors would do it though)
So panning was never smooth on the majority of them when watching films - you would have 3:2 judder.
And even at 48Hz - which is something I've tested - you still have judder introduced from the repeated frames.
The only time you would get smooth panning is playing a 60fps game on one.

Another issue with CRTs is that if they are adjusted so that the brightness turns the bias off (no light output at all) you then get huge streaks across the screen if anything is moving over a black background.
You need to raise the brightness enough to have a non-zero black level for good motion handling. (and even then there is usually some trailing)

I'm not sure that blanket statement is correct. For sure flicker is going to be more noticeable on an LCD with a 60Hz native refresh rate than a 120Hz refresh rate, but I believe that the other component that contributes to the noticeability of flicker is the frequency of strobing, and the higher the rate the less noticeable it is. So what you have stated may be true for a 60Hz LCD with a 2-segment scanning backlight, but if that backlight has its brightness increased to 800 Nits, say (Vizio R Series) and the scanning backlight has 8 segments instead of 2 being controlled at 480Hz instead of 120Hz, that scanning backlight could deliver 2ms persistence through a 60Hz refresh LCD with much less noticeable flicker (and a reduction in peak brightness to 100 Nits).

Increase the panel refresh rate to 120Hz and the action rate to 960Hz, and even with frame repeat, that same 2ms total persistence can be delivered with even less visible flicker. And throw in single-frame motion interpolation and you can either increase the brightness with 2ms persistence to 200 Nits or reduce motion blur to below plasma levels (for plasma without frame interpolation).

You can think of a 480p CRT like a 480-segment scanning backlight (single line per segment) strobing at 28,800Hz. Increasing the brightness of an LCD BLU and increasing the number of segments in a scanning backlight as well as the strobing frequency of those segments is approaching that CRT-like strobing performance a step at a time...
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post #16 of 19 Old 04-29-2014, 06:39 AM
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You can think of a 480p CRT like a 480-segment scanning backlight (single line per segment) strobing at 28,800Hz. Increasing the brightness of an LCD BLU and increasing the number of segments in a scanning backlight as well as the strobing frequency of those segments is approaching that CRT-like strobing performance a step at a time...

 

I don't like this analogy.  It's nothing like a scanning backlight broken into 480 segments at 28KHz, because the persistence of phosphor is expressed in multiple milliseconds which is an eternity compared to 0.0347222222 ms (1/28,800).


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post #17 of 19 Old 04-29-2014, 09:00 AM
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You can think of a 480p CRT like a 480-segment scanning backlight (single line per segment) strobing at 28,800Hz. Increasing the brightness of an LCD BLU and increasing the number of segments in a scanning backlight as well as the strobing frequency of those segments is approaching that CRT-like strobing performance a step at a time...

I don't like this analogy.  It's nothing like a scanning backlight broken into 480 segments at 28KHz, because the persistence of phosphor is expressed in multiple milliseconds which is an eternity compared to 0.0347222222 ms (1/28,800).

Should have made that clear - keep the segments on for the same equivalent persistence of CRT (let's say 2ms). The scanning backlight can have a rolling strobe of multiple segments at once, as Panasonic is already doing with their 8-segment scanning backlight.
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post #18 of 19 Old 04-30-2014, 11:05 AM
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Frankly why do Panasonic keep pushing the motion angle? prioritizing motion over other attributes is the height of stupidity after the failure of their plasma series, Samsung took a decidedly deliberate step back in motion performance since the E8000 and for most people, myself included, it just doesn't really matter.

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post #19 of 19 Old 04-30-2014, 12:05 PM
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Frankly why do Panasonic keep pushing the motion angle? prioritizing motion over other attributes is the height of stupidity after the failure of their plasma series, Samsung took a decidedly deliberate step back in motion performance since the E8000 and for most people, myself included, it just doesn't really matter.

 

<Guessing>It's not at all stupid.  Panasonic is attempting the don't-worry-be-happy approach to their plasma followers.  They don't want to lose who was otherwise a devoted (albeit small) following to yet-another-LCD manufacturer.  They needed to make the distinction as if to say: Plasma guys, you can stay with us without noticing.</Guessing>

 

If the above is true, it's not working, and further it couldn't possibly work.


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