When will you adopt UHD/4K? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: When will you adopt UHD/4K?
I already have an UHD/4K TV and supporting equipment 2 4.65%
I am planning on purchasing UHD/4K TV and supporting equipment very soon 9 20.93%
When the format is more mature and there are UHD/4K discs available 13 30.23%
When the format is more mature regardless of whether or not there are UHD/4K discs available 8 18.60%
I am fine with 1080p 11 25.58%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Now that UHD/4K is rolling out, I was wondering when you guys are thinking of adopting the format.
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post #2 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 03:02 PM
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Most of my tv watching is sports, so if 4k sporting broadcasts were available now, I would probably jump in. But since it appears they are years away, I'm not in a hurry.
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post #3 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 03:03 PM
 
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the more pixels the better!
bring it on smile.gif

im going for either the Panasonic AX800 or the Sony 65X900B in about 1 month
both has an expanded gamut so colors should look great on both and should be future proofed for some time.

i must see what the new "Expanded Dynamic Range" feature does on the Sony first.
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post #4 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 04:36 PM
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I voted option 3 - when there are UHD discs (or maybe it should have been 4?). If they were cheap enough and there were UHD broadcasts but no discs I may do too. So it's if they are cheap enough, and if there is enough content (eg. discs, other physical media, broadcasts I can get).
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post #5 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 06:08 PM
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I would love to have a 4K set right now - and 8K as soon as possible.
Because I don't just use our current display as a television, but also as a monitor for PC use and gaming (via the PC) the limitations of 1080p can be quite obvious at times - especially when I have a retina macbook or ipad next to me.

I don't care about 4K native content, because the PC will render everything at 4K already, and do very nice upscaling.


As I think about it more though, I actually wonder if I will ever own a 4K set.
Because my current TV is a full array local dimming set, even something like the top-model Sony this year would not be much of an upgrade for me in anything other than resolution.
The only thing which would really be an upgrade is an OLED set - but those are very expensive right now, and come with a lot of limitations. (lower brightness, the curve, the possibility of burn-in etc.)

By the time the cost of OLED has dropped and they have solved these issues - if they are solvable - I suspect we will be hearing about the first 8K displays hitting the market.
And even then, I am inclined to hold onto what I have.
  • This was a large purchase, and it was only four years ago.
  • While everyone here seems to be up-sizing, I really don't need anything bigger. I'd rather get a projector than incremental size increases every few years.
  • I'm not really in a position to re-purpose another television. If this is replaced by something else, it means another television in the house has to go.
  • While I would like more resolution, everything else about the television is fine, and I am happy with it. The same cannot be said for any of the other flat panels I had before this.

The constant upgrade cycle so many people go through just seems so wasteful to me.
So far, my decision to buy a high-end set that was the size I wanted, at twice the cost of a "regular" set that size, has paid off.
I know people that have bought four televisions in the space of time that I have had this, constantly upgrading what they had, and none of them have been half as good as this television because they're only buying the lower-end or mid-range sets.
And televisions don't hold their value at all, so it has cost them at least twice what I paid now.

Maybe a few years from now, my opinion will have changed, but I really feel like we could be using this until it dies - though perhaps not as the main TV by then.
I'd like to think that, being a high-end set, it is as well made as Sony's old televisions - it certainly feels like it is compared to most of the flat panels around now, and we still have an old 14" CRT from them in use today which is well over 20 years old at this point.
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post #6 of 35 Old 04-22-2014, 07:25 PM
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In 2016, I'll be buying the second generation of the 65" Vizio R-series set, with Dolby Vision. I'm not expecting much from the 4k resolution, but I am expecting a jump in picture quality from High Dynamic Range and 10 bit Wide Gamut color. I'll be relying on upconversion of HD sources, since I think 2016 is too soon to expect native UHD. Oled does not play a part in my plans.

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post #7 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 01:46 AM
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I wonder when we will see some significant 4k content released. I don't count 1 TV show on Netflix (at a low bitrate even) significant.

 

Broadcast 4k would be significant, but seems very unlikely to happen soon. I wonder if sports broadcast will come sooner than we think, by partnering up with companies like Amazon, Apple, or Microsoft. NFL already has a deal for the Xbox One, perhaps they could get a 4k stream (or at least a higher resolution stream than 720p). Apple TV already has a number of apps for MLB and such. When a new Apple TV with 4k support comes out, we might see live sports in 4k?


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post #8 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 05:22 AM
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When I can buy a 75"+ 4K TV with passive 3D for around $2000, that's when I'll start considering upgrading.
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post #9 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I don't care about 4K native content, because the PC will render everything at 4K already, and do very nice upscaling.
 
Do you happen to know what algorithm Sony is employing under the hood for their 2K-->4K upscale?
 
Quote:
While I would like more resolution, everything else about the television is fine, and I am happy with it. The same cannot be said for any of the other flat panels I had before this.

 

This is the problem with the poll.  It's lacking the choice I would like to vote for: "I currently own a 2K, am not against having a 4K, and will get one when my current set dies".
 

There is no reason to not get a 4K other than if it is rolled into a TV you don't want for other reasons.  And that recent Geoffrey Morrison article talking about 4K signal on 4K devices keeps getting misquoted.


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post #10 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Do you happen to know what algorithm Sony is employing under the hood for their 2K-->4K upscale?
It's a proprietary algorithm I think, but it includes a sharpening component.
It has been said that madVR's "Jinc" scaling is comparable in quality to Sony's upscaling, but without the sharpening stage. (a good thing in my opinion)
NNEDI3 scaling is a level above that.

None of the scaling algorithms in madVR sharpen the image. (though some of the lower quality ones do have ringing)
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post #11 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Do you happen to know what algorithm Sony is employing under the hood for their 2K-->4K upscale?
It's a proprietary algorithm I think, but it includes a sharpening component.
It has been said that madVR's "Jinc" scaling is comparable in quality to Sony's upscaling, but without the sharpening stage. (a good thing in my opinion)
NNEDI3 scaling is a level above that.

None of the scaling algorithms in madVR sharpen the image. (though some of the lower quality ones do have ringing)

 

Are you sure there's a sharpening component?  What does it do to the calibration patterns?

 

BTW, I'll have to look at the code to see how they accomplished an upscale without ringing in NNEDI3 and Jinc.  I hadn't seen that pulled off until our discussion about it over a year ago.  Lanczos was what I had mostly seen at that point.

 

Have you seen the 65X900A 2k-->4k upscale?  And whatever magic Sony managed within their BDP for making DVD's look so good is to be rewarded.  I've heard it from others too...remarkable...


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post #12 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Are you sure there's a sharpening component?  What does it do to the calibration patterns?
About 2/3 down the page in this review, the "detail enhancement" (sharpening) is discussed: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-vpl-vw1000es-201301162503.htm?page=Picture%20Quality
And the reviewer ("Lyris") comments that the Jinc results in madVR are exactly what he wanted as an option - good scaling without a "detail enhancement" component: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1611863&postcount=17053
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BTW, I'll have to look at the code to see how they accomplished an upscale without ringing in NNEDI3 and Jinc.  I hadn't seen that pulled off until our discussion about it over a year ago.  Lanczos was what I had mostly seen at that point.
It's not open source, and the developer has created his own anti-ringing option for the scaling process.
It is perhaps not completely free of ringing, but the results are very nice.
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post #13 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 09:28 AM
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Whenever one of my current TVs break. The next TV I'll get will be a 4K TV but I'm not going to replace a perfectly good TV.
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post #14 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 09:36 AM
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When I can get a 4K projector for ~$2000.

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post #15 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 11:19 AM
 
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None of the choices apply to me specifically, but the only 4K display I would consider is an OLED at this juncture.
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post #16 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 12:45 PM
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I will purchase when PQ on 4k sets justifies the price tag.

So if I had to guess...3-4 years down the road, if/when 4k OLED sets are more-reasonably priced.
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post #17 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 01:05 PM
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Something that Chron got me thinking about a year or so ago that has stuck with me ever since: I am dying to see what happens when we view a 4K 4:2:0 down sampled on a 2K set.  The results might be nearly identical to 2K 4:4:4.  Assuming there is a box or firmware available to decode it.

 

4K feeds might be the best thing that ever happened to 2K TV's.

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post #18 of 35 Old 04-23-2014, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

I will purchase when PQ on 4k sets justifies the price tag.

So if I had to guess...3-4 years down the road, if/when 4k OLED sets are more-reasonably priced.

If Vizio is any indication, the premium for 4K over 1080p is about the same as screen size that is 5" larger...
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post #19 of 35 Old 04-24-2014, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Something that Chron got me thinking about a year or so ago that has stuck with me ever since: I am dying to see what happens when we view a 4K 4:2:0 down sampled on a 2K set.  The results might be nearly identical to 2K 4:4:4.  Assuming there is a box or firmware available to decode it.

4K feeds might be the best thing that ever happened to 2K TV's.
Yes, 4K with 4:2:0 compression has a chroma resolution of 1920x1080. So you effectively have the same chroma resolution as a 1080p 4:4:4 source.
However, your luma resolution is still 4K and would be downscaled to 1080p - which means that any compression artifacts in the source will be 1/4 their original size, and smaller than you would see at 1080p. An 8x8 block would now only be 4x4 on the 1080p display for example.

As long as it's not bit-starved, 4K content should be an improvement on 1080p displays as well as 4K displays.
Many current 1080p displays do not retain full 4:4:4 resolution in their video modes though - you will only get 4:2:2. But it's still better to be downscaling 4:4:4 to 4:2:2, than upscale 4:2:0 to 4:2:2.

This is why it angers me that services like Netflix are being locked into 4K native displays.
With 4K streaming, we might finally have acceptable image quality for a streaming service, whether it's being displayed on a 4K screen or not.
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post #20 of 35 Old 04-24-2014, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post


Yes, 4K with 4:2:0 compression has a chroma resolution of 1920x1080. So you effectively have the same chroma resolution as a 1080p 4:4:4 source.
However, your luma resolution is still 4K and would be downscaled to 1080p - which means that any compression artifacts in the source will be 1/4 their original size, and smaller than you would see at 1080p. An 8x8 block would now only be 4x4 on the 1080p display for example.

As long as it's not bit-starved, 4K content should be an improvement on 1080p displays as well as 4K displays.
Many current 1080p displays do not retain full 4:4:4 resolution in their video modes though - you will only get 4:2:2. But it's still better to be downscaling 4:4:4 to 4:2:2, than upscale 4:2:0 to 4:2:2.

This is why it angers me that services like Netflix are being locked into 4K native displays.
With 4K streaming, we might finally have acceptable image quality for a streaming service, whether it's being displayed on a 4K screen or not.

 

Soon enough there will be 4K services in devices like Roku, Apple TV and so on, then nobody can stop you from getting the good stream.


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post #21 of 35 Old 04-24-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kain View Post

Now that UHD/4K is rolling out, I was wondering when you guys are thinking of adopting the format.

When you say "Now that UHD/4K is rolling out", are you talking about UHD/4K Content and Sources, or are you talking about UHD/4K Television Sets?

While i can buy a UHD/4K TV right now, i have zero UHD/4K sources or content to display on it nor do i see this happening anytime in the next several years. My cable provider will probably never broadcast in 4K, and my internet speeds aren't fast enough to stream 4K content.

If my 55ST60 were to die and be deemed unrepairable, i might replace it with a 4K LCD TV as i think 1080i & 1080p & 720p would look a little better upscaled on a 4K LCD vs a 1080p LCD from what i've seen so far at a few stores, but i'm not sure if that improvement is worth the big jump in price over a 1080p set.

In my situation (as well as with every single person i know), buying a 4K set without having any 4K content or sources would be like buying a great handling powerful sports car but being restricted to driving it only in downtown Los Angeles biggrin.gif

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post #22 of 35 Old 04-24-2014, 08:00 AM
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If my 55ST60 were to die and be deemed unrepairable, i might replace it with a 4K LCD TV as i think 1080i & 1080p & 720p would look a little better upscaled on a 4K LCD vs a 1080p LCD from what i've seen so far at a few stores, but i'm not sure if that improvement is worth the big jump in price over a 1080p set.

 

Try to keep in mind that the price jump is likely associated with the fact that it's a much higher end TV (panel and software), and less so that it's 4K.  And that videophiles are more likely to want a higher end panel to begin with anyway.  You will not find a high end panel that has everything a 4K version of it has but only 2K.  Just not offered.  Perhaps Sharp will in the quickly fading interim with their "hey we're almost 4K" crap, but they're going to get their lunch eaten with that marketing non-starter.

 

If the panel has everything you want otherwise, they'll put in 4K.


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post #23 of 35 Old 04-24-2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

However, your luma resolution is still 4K and would be downscaled to 1080p - which means that any compression artifacts in the source will be 1/4 their original size, and smaller than you would see at 1080p. An 8x8 block would now only be 4x4 on the 1080p display for example.

 

This is where I routinely stop short and pause.  I'm still not entirely on board with that.  It depends on what they're doing.  Yes, the luma resolution is higher, but I'd argue that the compression artifacts being less aren't because of the number of pixels in the blocks (as with the cosine transform of JPG), because that 1080 4x4 is the size of the 2160 8x8.  It's a matter of having more information to work with and "choose" from.  It doesn't mean that they can't botch it all by simply averaging.


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post #24 of 35 Old 05-01-2014, 07:32 AM
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When will I adopt UHD/4K? Not for a long time. I am more then happy with my 1080p 55W900A that I bought back in March of this year. By the time I even think of looking into 4K I will have to have a projection system to enjoy its true benefits. Until then I am set.
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post #25 of 35 Old 05-01-2014, 11:11 AM
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I will adopt 4K when I can get it in a FLAT OLED at 110 inches for $4,000.

How long until that happens?
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post #26 of 35 Old 05-02-2014, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
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I will adopt 4K when I can get it in a FLAT OLED at 110 inches for $4,000.
How long until that happens?

Not be4 your EOL biggrin.gif

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post #27 of 35 Old 05-03-2014, 08:34 AM
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Will 110 inch FLAT OLED ever be less than $10,000?
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post #28 of 35 Old 05-03-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
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Will 110 inch FLAT OLED ever be less than $10,000?
Unlikely. 110" displays of any kind cost significantly more than that today.
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post #29 of 35 Old 05-03-2014, 10:38 AM
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My guess is never.

Strictly my opinion, but I think 4K will be an even smaller niche market than 3D. I consider myself a resolution junkie but was less than impressed by the 4K demos ive seen, including the Sony 80" version. You just have to sit too close to the screen to truly get the benefits and wow factor from it.

I bet in the years to come it will be things like Dolby HDR, glasses free 3D, and other yet to be seen tech that will be the next big thing while resolution drops back to 1080P. Unless of course production costs drop to the point where 4K and 1080P are identical. But I think 4K broadcasting will be even more limited than 3D broadcasting. Virtually zero.
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post #30 of 35 Old 05-03-2014, 11:07 AM
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My guess is never.

Strictly my opinion, but I think 4K will be an even smaller niche market than 3D. I consider myself a resolution junkie but was less than impressed by the 4K demos ive seen, including the Sony 80" version. You just have to sit too close to the screen to truly get the benefits and wow factor from it.

I bet in the years to come it will be things like Dolby HDR, glasses free 3D, and other yet to be seen tech that will be the next big thing while resolution drops back to 1080P. Unless of course production costs drop to the point where 4K and 1080P are identical. But I think 4K broadcasting will be even more limited than 3D broadcasting. Virtually zero.

 

Curious as to your opinion on this:

 

Bandwidth hasn't increased dramatically over the years?

 

Technology doesn't improve dramatically over the years?

 

TV's never become something eventually retasked as gaming devices, computer monitors, or other up-close devices?


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