LG 65EC9700 65 OLED Anticipation thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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LG 65EC9700 65 OLED Anticipation thread

Well, there are no owners yet, but if I take the plunge for an OLED this year, the 65EC9700 is the one I will get.

First pricing just emerged on the 65EC9700 and at $10,000, I'm going to be paying attention: http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=95334

Thought I'd start this thread so that those interested in the 65EC9700 have a place to post their thoughts without polluting the 55EA9800 Owner's Thread (which gets polluted enough as it is :-)

Looking good for having the 65EC9700 participate in this years Value Electronics Shootout in late June / early July where I believe the 65EC9700 should be in pole position to win both the UHD and overall crowns based on the image quality the early owners of the 55EA9800 have reported.

At $10,000, anyone else going to be considering this model when it comes out later this year?
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post #2 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 12:20 PM
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What about the 77EC9800? AFAIK that's actually the one planned for the shoot-out, not the 65".

I am interested in the 65", though not at 10k if that turns out to be the correct price. At least it would be a starting point and after 2-3 months, who knows how much I'd need to pay.
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post #3 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 12:52 PM
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Can you update the thread name to 65"?
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post #4 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 12:57 PM
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LOL, the 65" is mentioned in the model name: 65EC9700
I didn't notice that the 55" follows right behind which is a bit of a weird format. I'd either suggest "LG EC9700 4K OLED Owner's thread" without any mention of the size or mentioning both sizes in the same format, e.g "LG 55/65EC9700 4K OLED Owner's thread". smile.gif
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post #5 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 04:19 PM
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damn curved screens. If this was a flat TV (and a upgrade path for 60hz 4k input) and totally get it for 10k

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post #6 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

At $10,000, anyone else going to be considering this model when it comes out later this year?
I will be considering this and the 77" depending on dealer cost. We can only hope they will be out early summer........

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post #7 of 1082 Old 04-30-2014, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post

Well, there are no owners yet, but if I take the plunge for an OLED this year, the 65EC9700 is the one I will get.

First pricing just emerged on the 65EC9700 and at $10,000, I'm going to be paying attention: http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=95334

Thought I'd start this thread so that those interested in the 65EC9700 have a place to post their thoughts without polluting the 55EA9800 Owner's Thread (which gets polluted enough as it is :-)

Looking good for having the 65EC9700 participate in this years Value Electronics Shootout in late June / early July where I believe the 65EC9700 should be in pole position to win both the UHD and overall crowns based on the image quality the early owners of the 55EA9800 have reported.

At $10,000, anyone else going to be considering this model when it comes out later this year?

 

Value Electronics owner, Robert Zohn told me he was informed in the USA the 65EC9700 list is likely $9,999.99 and MAP will be $8,999.99, but still not confirmed by LG.   So it may change. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappadappadu View Post

What about the 77EC9800? AFAIK that's actually the one planned for the shoot-out, not the 65".

I am interested in the 65", though not at 10k if that turns out to be the correct price. At least it would be a starting point and after 2-3 months, who knows how much I'd need to pay.

 

Zohn also told me he can't confirm if the 65" or 77" will be entered into the Shootout competition as it depends on which size he can get in time.  He also said the launch date is August, which is why he is delaying the Shootout.  I think they are getting the first production units in mid to late July.

 

So late summer early fall for them to be available to the public, but Shootout attendees will be spoiled a few weeks earlier with a preview.  This guy is fun to talk with and has a wealth of knowledge. 

 

Greg

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Everything is speculation at this point..........

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I'm getting one no matter what biggrin.gif

Can't get enough OLED. I won't be satisfied until every room in my house has an OLED, then I want OLED wall paper to cover all 6 walls, so I can create my own holodeck eek.gif

I wish the 77" wasn't so damn pricey. 26 000 is at least 10 000 too much.
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I will eventually buy one, but I'm going to wait one year after realease and hope the price comes down to $5000.
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Any hints on the cost of the 55EC9700 curved 4K OLED?
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post #12 of 1082 Old 05-05-2014, 11:34 AM
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if flat and performed without major flaws, then im in.
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if flat and performed without major flaws, then im in.

Forget this model then because the C in EC9700 is for Curved.
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post #14 of 1082 Old 05-07-2014, 04:20 PM
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Remember

 

Seven problems with current OLED televisions

Organic light-emitting diode (OLED) is the most exciting display technology since plasma, but there are a few things it needs to overcome before hitting the mainstream.

OLED has seven problems, but a bad picture ain't one. Samsung

Here at CNET we are really excited about big-screen OLED technology. While plasma is the present standard for videophile-quality displays, OLED is the future.

 

After finally getting a chance to test one of the first shipping OLED TVs in person, CNET's David Katzmaier says the Samsung S9C OLED is the best display he's ever seen. It offers almost infinite contrast levels, high light output, and no motion blur, uniformity or off-angle issues.

Yet, like any new technology, OLED has its problems and it pays to know what they are before you shell out any money for it. There are obvious things such as price, but some of the downsides may not be as apparent. Here are seven reasons why a 2013 OLED TV may not be for you.

 

1. They're expensive, and might not get cheaper very quickly
Even with a surprising price drop at official launch, Samsung's S9 OLED still busts the bank at $8,999. As of the time of writing, LG's 55EM9800 is even more ludicrous at $14,999. While LG's TV came out in July, the fact that it was first to market is mitigated by the huge price difference. Don't surprised if LG matches Samsung's price soon.

By way of comparison, our favorite 55-inch plasma for picture quality, the Panasonic TC-P55VT60 , costs $2,700. The best-performing 55-inch LED LCD we've tested this year, Sony's KDL-55W900A , is $2300.

It's true that new technologies start out expensive and then become cheaper as demand and the ability to supply increases. In less than a year since their debut, 4K LED LCD TVs have dropped rapidly in price, especially when you consider Chinese brands and even some price slashing by the likes of Sony and LG.

But OLED is a lot tougher to manufacture than LED LCD. Given the problems associated with making OLEDs, it's hard to say when they'll become affordable enough to recommend. Two years? Five? We just can't say.

Sarah Tew/CNET

2. They aren't flat
The first OLED TVs for sale in the U.S. aren't flat like other TVs, they're curved. And that curve was Katzmaier's main hang-up with the Samsung he reviewed : it made the otherwise beautiful image look distorted. From his review:

The corners seemed wider than the middle, creating a subtle trapezoid effect that I found distracting compared to the flatter shape of the traditional screen. The horizontal edges bowed wider toward the edges too, creating a subtle "U" along the top edge and an inverted one along the bottom. I can imagine the curve is something you can get used to, just like any artifact, but if I was that videophile with infinite funds, I'd probably still wait for a flat one.

Samsung and LG both told us that flat OLEDs aren't coming any time soon, and LG at least admitted that the reason had something to do with differentiating OLED from other types of TVs. On the other hand, of all the problems here, lack of flatness is the one that's most likely to be solved before any other.

Unofficially, we've heard all sorts of rumors and marketing reasons for the curve -- "it's cheaper than making it flat," "it lets us charge more," "it's more immersive," and "your eyeballs are curved." Whatever the reason, we are not fans.

Plus, does this mean we have to drop the term "flat panels" now?

3. They can burn in
Here's one they didn't tell you about: OLED is subject to burn-in. Like plasma and CRT before it, OLED can retain images on the screen temporarily, and perhaps even permanently, if it's left static for too long. While the degree to which it is susceptible is as yet unknown, there are a couple examples we've seen already.

At the top left of you can see where the screen has retained an image of the menu, although it may not be permanent.

The most extreme is the LG OLED display at U.K. department store Harrods, where according to a post by an AVS Forums member, burn-in appears to have occurred after two months on display. On the other hand, the member is careful to note that the TV was "clearly being abused" by being set to its brightest picture setting for continual display with a menu onscreen at all times, which are conditions no user at home would likely subject any TV to.

If you have an older OLED phone, such as the original Samsung Galaxy S, you may have seen this issue for yourself. Icons such as the reception bars may stick permanently and be faintly visible on a lighter screen. Follow this link for a (translated) example of how burn-in looks on a mobile phone screen.

Of course plasma TVs are subject to burn-in in extreme cases and "temporary image retention" under normal use, and CNET still recommends them wholeheartedly. Here are a few reasons why . Until we see credible evidence otherwise, we're assuming plasma and OLED are equally susceptible to this issue.

David Katzmaier/CNET

As Katzmaier found, the Samsung OLED TV does have an anti-burn-in protection circuit (above) and if you do spend $9,000 for this TV, you would be wise to use it!

4. There is only one size: 55 inches
OLED began its televisual life with the 11-inch Sony XEL-1 back in 2008, but there hasn't been anything else available outside of Asia since. While 55 inches is something of a sweet spot for screen sizes, if you're looking for something smaller or for a larger living area, sadly, you're out of luck. Yes, we certainly expect other sizes sometime, but due to manufacturing difficulties (see the next item), they might be a while.

The LG 55EM9700 and Samsung KN55S9C (right) come in only 55-inch sizes. CNET

5. OLED is an immature technology
While this is hardly the first generation of OLED displays in general, it's still a fledgling compared with mature LCD and plasma technologies.

Two problems facing mainstream OLED production are the relative lifespan of the "blue" pixel, and a relatively low yield. Compared to the red and green pixels, the blue pixel is much less efficient -- with studies saying it is as low as 4 percent while the other two are as high as 20 percent, according to Digital Trends. The blue pixel may also reduce your display's life with older research of the Sony XEL-1 suggesting after only 1,000 hours of use the display had dimmed by 12 percent. It's probable that the technology has improved since but no company is quoting any numbers.

Low yield refers to the fact that for every OLED TV that manages to make it onto store shelves, a relatively high number of panels have to be scrapped as defective. According to DisplaySearch as of December 2012 yields were as low as 10 percent. However Samsung, for its part, claims a recent, unspecified improvement in yield is the reason it dropped the price of its first OLED by $6000. By no means does this indicate the yield problem is "solved" because until it is, OLED will remain a niche product.

Neither company has published an official lifespan for its new OLED TVs. However, both the LG and Samsung OLED sets come with a 12 month warranty.

6. They're not 4K
Given that OLED televisions cost a lot of money, you might be surprised to find they don't support 4K/Ultra High Definition . Sony and Panasonic both showed off 4K OLEDs at CES 2013 and demonstrated that it's possible to produce these displays in a 55-inch size.

While it's yet to be seen what impact 4K will have on the market, high-end buyers looking at OLED might be rightly holding back because they want 4K, too. As we keep saying, however, OLED isn't easy to make. Therefore it isn't safe to assume that just because the cost gap between 4K and 1080p in LED LCD TVs is narrowing, the same will happen with OLED.

In the meantime, high-end buyer, take heart that at the 55-inch size of today's OLED TVs, the benefits of 4K resolution are likely to be nearly invisible .

7. There are competing OLED technologies
Nothing like a good old-fashioned "format war" to keep the consumers on their toes, eh? Samsung and LG have fundamentally different approaches when it comes to pixels that make up these displays, and it's still too early to tell which will be "better" in the long run.

LG

Samsung's method incorporates discrete red, green and blue subpixels into its display, just like a plasma or LED LCD. Given the uncertainty surrounding the blue pixel, it's uncertain what the long-term reliability will be.

LG's way around the "blue" problem is also potentially more cost-effective. It uses a grid made up of white OLEDs (which is actually compressed layers of red, green and blue OLEDs). Over these the company overlays a series of color filters to produce four different subpixels: red, green, blue and white. The advantage, LG says, is that the panel can produce a much higher brightness, which could give it the edge in a brightly lit environment over Samsung's method.

We haven't seen LG's OLED TV in person yet, nor compared it directly to Samsung's, so we won't speculate which one's "better" from a picture-quality standpoint. It may be years before we know which one wins in terms of reliability or longevity, let alone market popularity.

The bottom line is that OLED is essentially a brand-new technology in big-screen TVs, and plenty of questions remain. It has the potential to be the next plasma or LED LCD, but in the meantime we'd tell all but the most avid early adopters to hold off until a few more are answered.

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post #15 of 1082 Old 05-07-2014, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Remember

Seven problems with current OLED televisions



Organic light-emitting diode (OLED) is the most exciting display technology since plasma, but there are a few things it needs to overcome before hitting the mainstream.


Samsung_Curved_OLED-TV_1.jpgOLED has seven problems, but a bad picture ain't one. Samsung
Here at CNET we are really excited about big-screen OLED technology. While plasma is the present standard for videophile-quality displays, OLED is the future.
 
After finally getting a chance to test one of the first shipping OLED TVs in person, CNET's David Katzmaier says the Samsung S9C OLED is the best display he's ever seen. It offers almost infinite contrast levels, high light output, and no motion blur, uniformity or off-angle issues.
Yet, like any new technology, OLED has its problems and it pays to know what they are before you shell out any money for it. There are obvious things such as price, but some of the downsides may not be as apparent. Here are seven reasons why a 2013 OLED TV may not be for you.

1. They're expensive, and might not get cheaper very quickly

Even with a surprising price drop at official launch, Samsung's S9 OLED still busts the bank at $8,999. As of the time of writing, LG's 55EM9800 is even more ludicrous at $14,999. While LG's TV came out in July, the fact that it was first to market is mitigated by the huge price difference. Don't surprised if LG matches Samsung's price soon.
By way of comparison, our favorite 55-inch plasma for picture quality, the Panasonic TC-P55VT60 , costs $2,700. The best-performing 55-inch LED LCD we've tested this year, Sony's KDL-55W900A , is $2300.
It's true that new technologies start out expensive and then become cheaper as demand and the ability to supply increases. In less than a year since their debut, 4K LED LCD TVs have dropped rapidly in price, especially when you consider Chinese brands and even some price slashing by the likes of Sony and LG.
But OLED is a lot tougher to manufacture than LED LCD. Given the problems associated with making OLEDs, it's hard to say when they'll become affordable enough to recommend. Two years? Five? We just can't say.
006_Samsung_OLED_35823374.jpgSarah Tew/CNET
2. They aren't flat

The first OLED TVs for sale in the U.S. aren't flat like other TVs, they're curved. And that curve was Katzmaier's main hang-up with the Samsung he reviewed : it made the otherwise beautiful image look distorted. From his review:

The corners seemed wider than the middle, creating a subtle trapezoid effect that I found distracting compared to the flatter shape of the traditional screen. The horizontal edges bowed wider toward the edges too, creating a subtle "U" along the top edge and an inverted one along the bottom. I can imagine the curve is something you can get used to, just like any artifact, but if I was that videophile with infinite funds, I'd probably still wait for a flat one.

Samsung and LG both told us that flat OLEDs aren't coming any time soon, and LG at least admitted that the reason had something to do with differentiating OLED from other types of TVs. On the other hand, of all the problems here, lack of flatness is the one that's most likely to be solved before any other.
Unofficially, we've heard all sorts of rumors and marketing reasons for the curve -- "it's cheaper than making it flat," "it lets us charge more," "it's more immersive," and "your eyeballs are curved." Whatever the reason, we are not fans.
Plus, does this mean we have to drop the term "flat panels" now?
3. They can burn in

Here's one they didn't tell you about: OLED is subject to burn-in. Like plasma and CRT before it, OLED can retain images on the screen temporarily, and perhaps even permanently, if it's left static for too long. While the degree to which it is susceptible is as yet unknown, there are a couple examples we've seen already.
jq40bb.jpgAt the top left of you can see where the screen has retained an image of the menu, although it may not be permanent.
The most extreme is the LG OLED display at U.K. department store Harrods, where according to a post by an AVS Forums member, burn-in appears to have occurred after two months on display. On the other hand, the member is careful to note that the TV was "clearly being abused" by being set to its brightest picture setting for continual display with a menu onscreen at all times, which are conditions no user at home would likely subject any TV to.
If you have an older OLED phone, such as the original Samsung Galaxy S, you may have seen this issue for yourself. Icons such as the reception bars may stick permanently and be faintly visible on a lighter screen. Follow this link for a (translated) example of how burn-in looks on a mobile phone screen.
Of course plasma TVs are subject to burn-in in extreme cases and "temporary image retention" under normal use, and CNET still recommends them wholeheartedly. Here are a few reasons why . Until we see credible evidence otherwise, we're assuming plasma and OLED are equally susceptible to this issue.
DSC03686.jpgDavid Katzmaier/CNET
As Katzmaier found, the Samsung OLED TV does have an anti-burn-in protection circuit (above) and if you do spend $9,000 for this TV, you would be wise to use it!
4. There is only one size: 55 inches

OLED began its televisual life with the 11-inch Sony XEL-1 back in 2008, but there hasn't been anything else available outside of Asia since. While 55 inches is something of a sweet spot for screen sizes, if you're looking for something smaller or for a larger living area, sadly, you're out of luck. Yes, we certainly expect other sizes sometime, but due to manufacturing difficulties (see the next item), they might be a while.
OLED_Update_2013.jpgThe LG 55EM9700 and Samsung KN55S9C (right) come in only 55-inch sizes. CNET
5. OLED is an immature technology

While this is hardly the first generation of OLED displays in general, it's still a fledgling compared with mature LCD and plasma technologies.
Two problems facing mainstream OLED production are the relative lifespan of the "blue" pixel, and a relatively low yield. Compared to the red and green pixels, the blue pixel is much less efficient -- with studies saying it is as low as 4 percent while the other two are as high as 20 percent, according to Digital Trends. The blue pixel may also reduce your display's life with older research of the Sony XEL-1 suggesting after only 1,000 hours of use the display had dimmed by 12 percent. It's probable that the technology has improved since but no company is quoting any numbers.
Low yield refers to the fact that for every OLED TV that manages to make it onto store shelves, a relatively high number of panels have to be scrapped as defective. According to DisplaySearch as of December 2012 yields were as low as 10 percent. However Samsung, for its part, claims a recent, unspecified improvement in yield is the reason it dropped the price of its first OLED by $6000. By no means does this indicate the yield problem is "solved" because until it is, OLED will remain a niche product.
Neither company has published an official lifespan for its new OLED TVs. However, both the LG and Samsung OLED sets come with a 12 month warranty.
6. They're not 4K

Given that OLED televisions cost a lot of money, you might be surprised to find they don't support 4K/Ultra High Definition . Sony and Panasonic both showed off 4K OLEDs at CES 2013 and demonstrated that it's possible to produce these displays in a 55-inch size.
While it's yet to be seen what impact 4K will have on the market, high-end buyers looking at OLED might be rightly holding back because they want 4K, too. As we keep saying, however, OLED isn't easy to make. Therefore it isn't safe to assume that just because the cost gap between 4K and 1080p in LED LCD TVs is narrowing, the same will happen with OLED.
In the meantime, high-end buyer, take heart that at the 55-inch size of today's OLED TVs, the benefits of 4K resolution are likely to be nearly invisible .
7. There are competing OLED technologies

Nothing like a good old-fashioned "format war" to keep the consumers on their toes, eh? Samsung and LG have fundamentally different approaches when it comes to pixels that make up these displays, and it's still too early to tell which will be "better" in the long run.
woled2_sc_1.jpgLG
Samsung's method incorporates discrete red, green and blue subpixels into its display, just like a plasma or LED LCD. Given the uncertainty surrounding the blue pixel, it's uncertain what the long-term reliability will be.
LG's way around the "blue" problem is also potentially more cost-effective. It uses a grid made up of white OLEDs (which is actually compressed layers of red, green and blue OLEDs). Over these the company overlays a series of color filters to produce four different subpixels: red, green, blue and white. The advantage, LG says, is that the panel can produce a much higher brightness, which could give it the edge in a brightly lit environment over Samsung's method.
We haven't seen LG's OLED TV in person yet, nor compared it directly to Samsung's, so we won't speculate which one's "better" from a picture-quality standpoint. It may be years before we know which one wins in terms of reliability or longevity, let alone market popularity.
The bottom line is that OLED is essentially a brand-new technology in big-screen TVs, and plenty of questions remain. It has the potential to be the next plasma or LED LCD, but in the meantime we'd tell all but the most avid early adopters to hold off until a few more are answered.


I guess the early adopters can't say they weren't warned, can they?
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post #16 of 1082 Old 05-07-2014, 04:45 PM
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wow, I remember that old article - really highlites how far we've come in such little time; good post.

-When it says yeilds at 10% and now LG is up at the 70% figure - things have certainly changed.
-Also when it talks about how after 1000 hrs the set had dimmed by 12% - F8500 owners saw similar drops in their mature plasma technology.
-they are now in 4k (which means nothing to me personally).
-They are getting flat ones, maybe just not the ones I want in flat though smile.gif
-they aren't 55 inches only anymore
-there's likely no more format war as reports are in that samsung is likely throwing in the towel in the OLED arena.
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wow, I remember that old article - really highlites how far we've come in such little time; good post.

-When it says yeilds at 10% and now LG is up at the 70% figure - things have certainly changed.
-Also when it talks about how after 1000 hrs the set had dimmed by 12% - F8500 owners saw similar drops in their mature plasma technology.
-they are now in 4k (which means nothing to me personally).
-They are getting flat ones, maybe just not the ones I want in flat though smile.gif
-they aren't 55 inches only anymore
-there's likely no more format war as reports are in that samsung is likely throwing in the towel in the OLED arena.

Yeah, unfortunately progress on all fronts except for BI/IR (apparently :-(

I found this statement from the 2013 article interesting: "Samsung and LG both told us that flat OLEDs aren't coming any time soon, and LG at least admitted that the reason had something to do with differentiating OLED from other types of TVs."

So another front on which we've also made progress is that curves are not just for OLED anymore biggrin.gif (Samsung probably made sure of that as soon as they realized they would be ceding the first-generation OLED war to LG).
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Good points. I don't worry about IR much since its a small fraction of my viewing time impacted. The day screen uniformity is as good on competing technologies is the day I will rethink how much IR means to me since that issue plagues big parts of my viewing time. Curves also impact me more lol.
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This is my biggest concerned I watch movies only and 85% of them are in 2:35 or 2:40

 


Here's one they didn't tell you about: OLED is subject to burn-in. Like plasma and CRT before it, OLED can retain images on the screen temporarily, and perhaps even permanently, if it's left static for too long.

 

While the degree to which it is susceptible is as yet unknown, there are a couple examples we've seen already.
jq40bb.jpgAt the top left of you can see where the screen has retained an image of the menu, although it may not be permanent.  The most extreme is the LG OLED display at U.K. department store Harrods, where according to a post by an AVS Forums member, burn-in appears to have occurred after two months on display.

 

Hopefully they will launch a 2:35 OLED and that will solve the problem :)


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Remember these:

 

Vizio’s 58-inch 21:9 CinemaWide TV: An extra-wide load

Vizio-cinema-wide-tv

Way back in the olden days (in TV years, that’s like…15 years ago) — well before the widescreen TV was popularized — we were blessed with the glorious digital picture and sound of the Laserdisc, which was ultimately replaced by the DVD. The appeal of both of  these new formats was a higher resolution picture, true — but these digital discs also aimed to popularize something that folks weren’t yet warmed up to: widescreen. The benefit of a widescreen presentation is that it avoids chopping off the sides of a movie so that you don’t miss any of what the director intended you to see; but when played back on a standard 4:3 TV, widescreen comes with a side-effect that people did not respond well to initially: the dreaded “black bars.” Folks who bought 55-inch TVs roughly the size of Mack trucks were infuriated. Their thinking was, “what’s the point in having a huge screen if nearly 1/3 of it is going to wasted with these black bars?” 

As you can imagine, the public got pretty excited at the idea of a widescreen TV when it was first introduced. Ideally, these new TVs with 16:9 aspect ratios would get rid of those stupid black bars when watching movies, right? You know the answer already: not always. The reason is that many movies are filmed in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio commonly referred to as CinemaScope. These ultra-wide movies come with black bars on the top and bottom because the image is just too wide to fit on our 16:9 TVs. So, what’s it going to take to ditch those black bars? The answer is an extra-wide 21:9 TV and — good news, folks — Vizio has finally begun selling them on its website. 

 

We first saw Vizio’s 21:9 CinemaWide TV at CES 2011, where we were told the new sets would be available later that year. Obviously, that didn’t happen. Then, earlier this year at CES 2012, we were informed that a 50, 58 and 71-inch version of the new TV would come available in March and retail for $3500. Clearly, Vizio missed its self-instituted March deadline; but there is good news. Vizio is selling the 58-inch model right now at a special price of $2500 and –take our word for it — these 21:9 TVs look really cool. But, practically speaking, how cool are they, really? 

Presently, 2.35:1 movies on Blu-ray disc are presented in 16:9 with the black bars on the top and bottom in 1920 x 1080 resolution. As such, some of the information on the disc is just black bars, which does the higher 2560 x 1080 resolution of these 21:9 TVs no good whatsoever. The TV actually ends up scaling this image in order to get rid of the black bars and fill the screen with the movie. That means that even though the TV now perfectly fits the movie’s shape, the image being shown is no longer a pixel for pixel match to the content. While most folks probably won’t notice the scaling effect, for the obsessive videophiles and cinephiles this sort of TV is most likely to appeal to, its going to be a problem. 

 

This new 21:9 TV might also present a problem for those that would use this as an everyday TV and have a distaste for black bars. Since most of the HD content we watch is presented in 16:9, this 21:9 TV will have to place black bars on the sides of the image to maintain the right aspect ratio — or, shape — of most of the content we watch on a daily basis. Oh, and all that old-school 4:3 content still being broadcast by the networks (mostly ads) will be just a tiny square amongst a 21:9 sea of blackness.

Despite the limitations involved, we applaud Vizio for doing its part to try to bring this format to U.S. homes. It isn’t Vizio’s fault that nobody produces native 2.35:1 software yet — and why would they if there was no TV to support it?  Right now Vizio and Philips are the only two companies offering such a TV, but if the software catches up and demand improves, maybe we’ll start seeing more CinemaScope-friendly displays hitting store shelves in the coming years. 


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post #21 of 1082 Old 05-07-2014, 05:18 PM
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Maybe they will do this as an OLED?

 

LG's 105-inch, 21:9 curved UHD TV  http://www.cnet.com/products/lg-105uc9/

 

Or Samsung  http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-105u9500/


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ironically even the *extreme* example of IR from two months of static images shown above in Harrods doesn't begin to compare to the issues you can see in my LCD picture posted in my gallery. Keep in mind that the pic is only of the screen uniformity with a white screen and when the screen is dark you then have the flashlighting and the clouding. IR is also preventable and treatable whereas uniformity is essentially permanent. Screen uniformity issues that are visible with general content is akin to actual *Burn In* (the kind that's really hard to pull off).

That's why I chuckle a little when people get distracted by the faintest of traces of IR from a logo - they would absolutely die if they saw the types of uniformity issues some of us had to go through with their sony/samsung LCDs.

21:9 tv's would result in people getting smaller images. Usually the width of the area where poeople place/mount their screens is the limiting factor. For me on my table top if my tv changed from 16:9 to 21:9 I would actually lose surface area and would get smaller images the majority of the time. 4:3 is even more efficient at giving size precedence (IMAX); so I'm happy they chose the middle ground with 16:9 for the majority of widescreens.
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ironically even the *extreme* example of IR from two months of static images shown above in Harrods doesn't begin to compare to the issues you can see in my LCD picture posted in my gallery. Keep in mind that the pic is only of the screen uniformity with a white screen and when the screen is dark you then have the flashlighting and the clouding. IR is also preventable and treatable whereas uniformity is essentially permanent. Screen uniformity issues that are visible with general content is akin to actual *Burn In* (the kind that's really hard to pull off).

That's why I chuckle a little when people get distracted by the faintest of traces of IR from a logo - they would absolutely die if they saw the types of uniformity issues some of us had to go through with their sony/samsung LCDs.

21:9 tv's would result in people getting smaller images. Usually the width of the area where poeople place/mount their screens is the limiting factor. For me on my table top if my tv changed from 16:9 to 21:9 I would actually lose surface area and would get smaller images the majority of the time. 4:3 is even more efficient at giving size precedence (IMAX); so I'm happy they chose the middle ground with 16:9 for the majority of widescreens.

The issue is not whether OLED or LCD provides better screen uniformity - the issue is changes in uniformity as the TV is used. With LCD, you see what you get, and if you are happy with it, it will basically not change on you through the products lifetime. Buying into a 'perfect' OLED picture that degrades over time (and depending on what you watch) is an unacceptable proposition to most consumers.

No, if the worst case non-uniformity that you can cause on an OLED is no worse than the typical nonuniformity on an LCD screen, your point is valid - but we are a long, long way from knowing that yet in terms of worst-case, and the fact that visible screen changes can result after only 10 hours of viewing is valid cause for concern.

Plasma never overcame it's reputation for burn-in/image-retention and if OLED takes a few steps down that same path, it may be doomed to the same fate.
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bs. You don't see what you get till you get it home and you start to notice and tweak settings to home viewing levels.

I agree about the reputation bit, since I bought my first flagship LCD out of fear of plasma when I did my research to upgrade from CRT. When you see pros and cons online and aren't familiar with them for some reason IR and burn in sound more fearsome than all of them. The reality and % of viewing actually affected isn't something you'll be accustomed to until its likely a done deal and you have hard earned experience.

The proposition that something will degrade over time is part of the fear and is propagated here by comments similar to yours. If the total degradation expected though is less than the starting uniformity issue of the set with uniformity issues, well then I know which I would choose, but that data isn't set in stone and there's fear of the unknown. People don't get that data from reviews - it takes hard experience and a lot of educated owners to make it known. My brothers plasma frequently gets left on overnight while he falls asleep with a static screen. When we run some slides we see a lot of IR, but when we watch tv we hardly notice anything. When we watched my Samsung LCD, even my wife notices the issues and there's comments like 'what's that smudge?' all the time.... biggrin.gif

so yes, i essentially agree with you lol
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bs. You don't see what you get till you get it home and you start to notice and tweak settings to home viewing levels.

I agree about the reputation bit, since I bought my first flagship LCD out of fear of plasma when I did my research to upgrade from CRT. When you see pros and cons online and aren't familiar with them for some reason IR and burn in sound more fearsome than all of them. The reality and % of viewing actually affected isn't something you'll be accustomed to until its likely a done deal and you have hard earned experience.

The proposition that something will degrade over time is part of the fear and is propagated here by comments similar to yours. If the total degradation expected though is less than the starting uniformity issue of the set with uniformity issues, well then I know which I would choose, but that data isn't set in stone and there's fear of the unknown. People don't get that data from reviews - it takes hard experience and a lot of educated owners to make it known. My brothers plasma frequently gets left on overnight while he falls asleep with a static screen. When we run some slides we see a lot of IR, but when we watch tv we hardly notice anything. When we watched my Samsung LCD, even my wife notices the issues and there's comments like 'what's that smudge?' all the time.... biggrin.gif

You are right - I typed to hastily. You bring an LCD home and then you find out what kind of PQ it really has. You return it if it doesn't measure up and you keep it if it does. But once you have tested an LCD in your viewing environment and decided to keep it, it is very unlikely to degrade over time and disappoint you going forward. That is what I meant to type.

And I also agree with you comment that concerns regarding IR and BI of plasma are overblown, but it doesn't really matter. Any issue of that nature, no matter how minor, is a significant additional burden on the consumer. LCD = no degradation over time; Plasma = potential for some degradation over time means the consumer needs to understand a great deal more about plasma before being comfortable make the decision to purchase one.

No one likes to feel stupid about their buying decisions, especially for a high-end and very visible electronic product like a television. Buying a new luxury car that is always breaking down on you makes you feel stupid. Buying a new TV that gets ruined because you were not careful enough with it makes you feel stupid. LCD mat make you feel mediocre and that you are missing out on the best PQ possible, but it will never make you feel stupid.

My comments are not intended to propagate fears that OLED will degrade over time but to alert others thinking of buying into the technology at this stage that there is early evidence of risk that they may degrade over time and there is not yet enough experience and history with this new display technology to assess that risk. From what I've learned on this Forum, I am certainly not going to express the view that the water is warm, OLED is very safe, come on in. This is a very new technology, it appears to still be very immature, and several early owners have reported a rollercoaster of picture quality ecstasy followed by evidence of visible changes in their screens.

Hopefully LG is aware of all of these issues, hopefully they have already been corrected in the next generation launching later this year, and hopefully even the continued testing of the first-generation WOLED products will indicate that the worst is past and any further degradation in screen uniformity is no worse than what has already been reported. But that is a lot of 'hopefully's and I for one will be waiting for more of those boxes to be ticked off before plunging in.
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I'm trying to deal with the practical realities of course. If I wanted to 'burn in' an image on my plasma so that it was as bad as my LCD uniformity so that when I turned my plasma set on the screen would look just the same as my LCD uniformity it would be very difficult and would likely take me months of using my set in a way that is just not practical, if not difficult. Its from that standpoint I attack the question of how warm the water is with plasma and IR for myself.

As to OLED with IR, we really only have a small sample and even if it turns out to be *worse* than plasma, as long as its in the same ballpark, I'm ok with it smile.gif

I'm also ok with it if LCD technology manages to get the uniformity issue down to invisible and give me a high native contrast - its the end result and the amount of my viewing time that's affected by the 'cons' that I care about ultimately.
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Hopefully LG is aware of all of these issues, hopefully they have already been corrected in the next generation launching later this year, and hopefully even the continued testing of the first-generation WOLED products will indicate that the worst is past and any further degradation in screen uniformity is no worse than what has already been reported. But that is a lot of 'hopefully's and I for one will be waiting for more of those boxes to be ticked off before plunging in.

I thought you were always more interested in a cheaper vizio? I would imagine that OLED would be very far down the road for you if ever since its not looking like it will be a cheap technology. What are you shopping for? What set are you coming from?
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Hopefully LG is aware of all of these issues, hopefully they have already been corrected in the next generation launching later this year, and hopefully even the continued testing of the first-generation WOLED products will indicate that the worst is past and any further degradation in screen uniformity is no worse than what has already been reported. But that is a lot of 'hopefully's and I for one will be waiting for more of those boxes to be ticked off before plunging in.

I thought you were always more interested in a cheaper vizio? I would imagine that OLED would be very far down the road for you if ever since its not looking like it will be a cheap technology. What are you shopping for? What set are you coming from?

Back in 2011 when my $7000 720P DWIN projector gave up the ghost, I almost took the plunge on a Sharp Elite but decided to get a placeholder for a year or two to give Sharp time to correct the chroma bug and for prices to come down to more reasonable levels. So I picked up a 55" LG LW5600 which I've been pretty happy with except for black levels and shadow detail. But then Sharp never came out with another revision of the Elite and the flat-panel TV industry wasted the next several years on nonsense like 'thin' and '3D'.

Picked up a 65ZT60 in January figuring I had to experience the 'best TV ever made' while it was still available, but the modest improvements in dark-room black levels and shadow detail were not enough to convince anyone in the family except me that it was worth losing image crispness, daytime viewing in our bright environment, and when I told the kids to be careful not to leave the TV on and abandoned with a video game running for a whole hour, that was the last straw - the famed 65ZT60 went back to BB in favor of the lowly 55LW5600.

So I am ready to shell out for a high-end TV but only want to do so once for the next 4-5 years. And I'm on the fence between picking up another 65" placeholder TV like the Vizio P, waiting another year or two for OLED to mature, and picking up my penultimate TV in 2016 when LG will hopefully be turning on the spigot of the new M2 manufacturing line full force, or continuing to make do with my 55LW5600 for another 6-12 months to see how this WOLED story unfolds and picking up the 65EC9700 in its first year of sales.

If I think the second-generation LG WOLEDs are ready for prime-time, I may take the plunge late this year or early next. If I think they need another year or two to get the technology debugged, I'll probably go for a low-cost placeholder like the VIzio P (or perhaps even the Vizio M or Toshiba L7400U), and if I think OLED is doomed, I would probably go for one of the Sharp-Elite-besting FALD LED/LCDs like the Toshiba L9400U, Sony X950B (if they get real about price), or Vizio Reference Series (if it ever actually materializes).

Keeping my options open for now - 2014 is an interesting year to be shopping for a new TV biggrin.gif
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wow, sorry to hear that frown.gif. Sounds like the percent of your viewing time affected by everything is almost 100% eek.gif

I would have just kept the zt60 if I were you and for how cheap it was you could have disposed of it after 2-3 years even if the kids did finally manage to get enough IR on it to rival the lcd uniformity issues
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wow, sorry to hear that frown.gif. Sounds like the percent of your viewing time affected by everything is almost 100% eek.gif

I would have just kept the zt60 if I were you and for how cheap it was you could have disposed of it after 2-3 years even if the kids did finally manage to get enough IR on it to rival the lcd uniformity issues

I know it will get me labelled as a numbnut here on the Forum, but the family did not like the image of the plasma as much as they liked the image of the LED/LCD. I need to find a TV with better blacks AND LED crispness/sharpness (and no extraordinary care and feeding biggrin.gif)

Since I switched from the projector to the LG LED/LCD, we spend a great deal more time enjoying our viewing and far less affected by our TV technology (part of the reason that I am in no particular rush).

I have no doubt that there is a TV in my future which will allow me to have my cake and eat it to - I just can't say when that TV is going to be available for public consumption. OLED will be great if/when it is reliable and low-maintenance.
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