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-   -   Why Not Start Saying "Good-Bye" to LCD, and "Hello" to Emissive Panel Types (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/1591034-why-not-start-saying-good-bye-lcd-hello-emissive-panel-types.html)

Big C 07-04-2014 10:20 AM

Why Not Start Saying "Good-Bye" to LCD, and "Hello" to Emissive Panel Types
 
No LCD panel types (IPS, TN, and VA) or LED backlighting/dimming method (edge-lit and FALD) will be able to do what CRTs, plasmas, OLED, laser pixels, or other emissive technologies can do without artifacts. Instead of wasting manufacturing resources attempting the impossible, why doesn't everyone just start cutting costs for LCD manufacturing so that companies can afford developing emissive panel types? Maybe better TVs would become more afordible to the consumers, and companies would be able to aford selling them to consumers at lower prices if they weren't wasting their resources banging their heads against the wall all the time.

GregLee 07-04-2014 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big C (Post 25489370)
No LCD panel types (IPS, TN, and VA) or LED backlighting/dimming method (edge-lit and FALD) will be able to do what CRTs, plasmas, OLED, laser pixels, or other emissive technologies can do without artifacts.

I don't know that that is true.

I want a high brightness display.

turnbowm 07-04-2014 03:45 PM

Like it or not, LCD will continue to dominate the TV industry for years to come. Plasma is on its last legs and 2014 will probably be its last year in production. OLED is a promising technology, but the only player in the game is LG. Its survival depends on LG's ability to solve "infancy" problems such as dying pixels, uneven panel wear and high costs. I'm hoping that LG is successful in that effort.

Artwood 07-05-2014 08:17 AM

Remember Brando in Apocalypse Now: "The horror! The horror"!

What will come first--Man on Mars or an LCD only world?


Who can take it?

sage11x 07-05-2014 10:28 AM

I have a VT60 so I already said 'hello' but the simple answer for most people is availablility-- there are few models available and most come with serious caveats.

Now that laser is gone (did it ever really arrive?) we're talking plasma and OLED as the last bastions of self emissive goodness available to buy right now. Panasonic, arguably the manufacturer of choice for high quality, versatile plasma displays are already out of the game. Samsung, the next in line, will be bowing out soon but of their 4 model lines still available 3 are mostly useless in a bright room (thanks to lack of screen filter) and 1, the awesome F8500, is still very expensive (unless you score a killer open box deal like our own Mark H aka imagic). LG's plasmas are years behind the competition in terms of picture quality which they handily make up for with their awe-inspiring OLED set... which is prohibitively expensive, only 55" and has serious uneven wear/longevity concerns.

So, yeah, it's a tough time right now if you don't want an LCD... which I didn't... which is why I bought the VT60! :)

andy sullivan 07-05-2014 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage11x (Post 25508882)
I have a VT60 so I already said 'hello' but the simple answer for most people is availablility-- there are few models available and most come with serious caveats.

Now that laser is gone (did it ever really arrive?) we're talking plasma and OLED as the last bastions of self emissive goodness available to buy right now. Panasonic, arguably the manufacturer of choice for high quality, versatile plasma displays are already out of the game. Samsung, the next in line, will be bowing out soon but of their 4 model lines still available 3 are mostly useless in a bright room (thanks to lack of screen filter) and 1, the awesome F8500, is still very expensive (unless you score a killer open box deal like our own Mark H aka imagic). LG's plasmas are years behind the competition in terms of picture quality which they handily make up for with their awe-inspiring OLED set... which is prohibitively expensive, only 55" and has serious uneven wear/longevity concerns.

So, yeah, it's a tough time right now if you don't want an LCD... which I didn't... which is why I bought the VT60! :)

It is an unfortunate fact of life in the TV business but LED lit LCD is King. Creative marketing (misleading at best) promoting the LED technology, has led to 99% of the public being satisfied with the current state of the art. It's not like the auto industry where you can promote better gas milage or better safety or better comfort. It's a high definition TV and the HD quality itself still offers a huge huge WOW factor to most buyers. Prices have come down so far that the vast majority in this country can entertain buying a 60 to 70in TV. In today's paper I saw 70in advertised for under $1K. With the heavy marketing of 4K, THAT is the next quality "step up" for most people, which of course is still LCD. Hope all you want but for the forciabl future LCD will remain King.

David Susilo 07-05-2014 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turnbowm (Post 25495922)
Like it or not, LCD will continue to dominate the TV industry for years to come. Plasma is on its last legs and 2014 will probably be its last year in production. OLED is a promising technology, but the only player in the game is LG. Its survival depends on LG's ability to solve "infancy" problems such as dying pixels, uneven panel wear and high costs. I'm hoping that LG is successful in that effort.

This "infancy" problem have been around since 1999 when I invested shitloads of money (and lost almost all of them) on OLED research and development. 15 years and STILL having the same problem? I've lost faith nearly a decade ago.

andy sullivan 07-05-2014 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Susilo (Post 25509994)
This "infancy" problem have been around since 1999 when I invested shitloads of money (and lost almost all of them) on OLED research and development. 15 years and STILL having the same problem? I've lost faith nearly a decade ago.

The biggest obsticle to the emergence of OLED may be the (build better mouse trap) scenario. While we here may except that OLED is a better mouse trap than LCD, we here have zero effect on the TV manufactures attitude regarding profits. The new LCD is 4K and will be followed by 8K and then, if OLED is still viable, it will become the new flavor of choice.

SiGGy 07-05-2014 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big C (Post 25489370)
No LCD panel types (IPS, TN, and VA) or LED backlighting/dimming method (edge-lit and FALD) will be able to do what CRTs, plasmas, OLED, laser pixels, or other emissive technologies can do without artifacts. Instead of wasting manufacturing resources attempting the impossible, why doesn't everyone just start cutting costs for LCD manufacturing so that companies can afford developing emissive panel types? Maybe better TVs would become more afordible to the consumers, and companies would be able to aford selling them to consumers at lower prices if they weren't wasting their resources banging their heads against the wall all the time.

No artifacts in a plasma? temporal dithering, only 4k true colors on screen simultaneously, ABL, then the drive sytem quirks like flickering. Slow phosphors... Plasmas do a ton of processing to display the image... Lots of hoops to jump through.

LCD have more accurate color, no ABL, no dithering, most have 10 bit color. This is why LCD screens are used for color critical needs.

All technologies have their pluses and minuses.

With manufacturers focusing on FALD finally and pricing it reasonably you'll start seeing better LCD sets.

My edge lit LCD hits .007fl with no tricks this is better than my D8000 and e8000 plasmas in terms of contrast. But worse than my vt30 and vt50. my display has no flashlighting or ghosts. To boot when watching letterbox stuff it detects this and shuts off the lighting in the black bars... They are pitch black.

If FALD continues to be developed they will work he bugs out.

I have my hopes on oled but it really is in its infancy for televisions... Lets hope prices drop and they sell... Oled also suffers from same motion issues LCD does. both are sample and hold technology. Both require some tricks to make motion look better to our eyes. Also none of he sets have been out long enough to know how the sub pixels will age.

barth2k 07-05-2014 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25506698)
Remember Brando in Apocalypse Now: "The horror! The horror"!

What will come first--Man on Mars or an LCD only world?


Who can take it?

Don't we already have an LCD only world, for all intents and purposes.

I think you mean to say: what will come first, man on Mars or LCD relegated to recycle bin of tech history.

Artwood 07-05-2014 10:57 PM

My message to the few video enthusiasts left in the world that know that LCD is inferior and will not join the LCD Sales Force--suck it up--don't cry--buy OLED or die!

Now I know how Puff the Magic Dragon felt.

olyteddy 07-06-2014 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25520362)
...

Now I know how Puff the Magic Dragon felt.

Stoned?

ChadThunder 07-07-2014 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiGGy (Post 25515242)
No artifacts in a plasma? temporal dithering, only 4k true colors on screen simultaneously, ABL, then the drive sytem quirks like flickering. Slow phosphors... Plasmas do a ton of processing to display the image... Lots of hoops to jump through.


These things are really unfortunate but people did not embrace the direction Panasonic was going with the VX and other professional series, in this day and age native 10/12/16-bit plasmas are easily possible with dual subfield drivers & oldschool top/bottom addressing methods but for some reason the market always favored grainy low color plasmas which were a tiny bit cheaper, at a certain point it doesn't make business sense to use extra hardware while you are losing market share to competitors who threw out those concepts years ago.

Here is some food for thought and an explanation why older 768p Panasonic plasmas might produce a better static picture (very obvious with real time rendered content as opposed to compressed video) and 4K plasma would have a lower color resolution by its nature

Quote:

Originally Posted by plasmadynamics.com
With recent improvements of plasma displays, switching to a high-definition (HD) and 10-subfield addressing the addressing time has became a critical issue. Indeed, if it takes ~1.5μs to address a line, then for 10-subfield addressing scheme it will take ~7.5μs (1080 lines) for addressing the panel using dual-scan method. If one adds 3ms for the ramp reset time, then the time left for the actual sustaining will be only about 6ms. This creates a serious problem for the single scan method, which requires twice as fast addressing (~0.8μs/line) or at least sub microsecond per line. Currently this problem is being resolved by using interlacing, variable sustain frequency, complex algorithms instead of a true 10-subfield scheme, etc. In the result, new artifacts appear, and while new panels do not have distortions that older 8-subfield panels had, the quality of a static image of new HD and especially Full HD panels are often worse than those of older ones with lower number of subfields. Thus the addressing speed has become the bottleneck for high quality plasma panels, and to understand what limits its speed and how to overcome the speed problem is of utmost importance.


KidHorn 07-07-2014 04:37 AM

I'm a plasma guy. My last 2 TVs were Panasonic Plasma. I don't view the switch to LCD as being the end of the world. Some of the 4K LCD's I've seen look better than my plasma's. I think some of us need to take a critical look at the new 4K TV's. We developed an opinion of LCD years ago and have stuck with that opinion. LCD's being sold today and much better than they were a few years ago.

Artwood 07-07-2014 03:43 PM

I bet you won't see many plasmas, Kuros, or Sharp elites in upcoming shootouts because they would just prove that current picture quality is going backwards when it comes to current LCDs.

Other than the very few OLEDS in the world--exactly how many of those are flat--we are now entering the SEWER!!!

LCD is the worst thing in the history of televison. Truth is dying. Who can take it?

When will we see the: I Survived the LCD Apocalypse T-shirts?

12B4A 07-07-2014 04:47 PM

There is a materials limitation (both in yield and panel life) for OLEDs that's not going to be overcome without removing the organic component. OLEDs are great for phones and tablets where those devices are changed by the consumer every 1-2 years. For large screen TVs it just won't be profitable to be an OLED manufacturer due to yields nor will an OLED consumer repurchase or recommend purchasing one to someone else when the panel life is questionable after 3-4 years of steady use.

LCD quality is night and day compared to 5-6 years ago. However, when put next to a plasma I certainly agree the plasma just looks more appealing to me. Since LCD yield rates are so high, their power consumption is so low, and their optical performance is pretty good for their cost, it's pretty fair to say LCD will be our guest for quite some time. Although, not nearly as long as CRTs were.

I think the biggest game changer will be LED lamps in projectors surpassing arc lamps for lumens/watt/dollar and achieving brightness levels lamps could never sanely hit in a living room setup. Add in the shrinking of the projector case itself due to optical engine improvements and less thermal management and you have a projector more friendly to mass consumption.

olyteddy 07-07-2014 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25561314)
...
LCD is the worst thing in the history of televison. Truth is dying. Who can take it?
...

Folks like you are killing it...;)

Artwood 07-07-2014 09:35 PM

Even the sales force who promote LCD around here don't really believe what they're saying.

RandyWalters 07-08-2014 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25561314)
I bet you won't see many plasmas, Kuros, or Sharp elites in upcoming shootouts because they would just prove that current picture quality is going backwards when it comes to current LCDs.

IIRC they will have a Samsung F8500 Plasma at the upcoming VE TV Shootout coming up in mid-August.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25561314)
Other than the very few OLEDS in the world--exactly how many of those are flat--we are now entering the SEWER!!!

It's very possible that OLED will become more mainstream and maybe even replace LCD if they can get yields up, lower production costs, and increase longevity. We'll have to see how it plays out, but i remain hopeful.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Artwood (Post 25561314)
LCD is the worst thing in the history of televison. Truth is dying. Who can take it?

They are not the worst thing in the world by any means, i actually like many of their attributes and an LCD would actually be a better fit for most of my TV viewing, with the sole exception of watching movies in a very dark room (which is rare for me).

Dartman 07-08-2014 08:06 PM

I got a Sony 42ex440 42" LCD/led set and I was scared to death it would have crappy black levels and viewing angles. I had a Toshiba 34" cinemas series CRT set I loved but it was heavy and tiny by comparison.
The Sony uses some kind of PVA screen and actually has good enough black level for me, is very bright and crisp too. Backlight has a tiny bit of light bleed in a couple of corners but on regular viewing you never notice it. Veiwng angle isn't as good as IPS but not bad and from my front room viewing area hasn't been a problem either.
That's the issue for most buyers, newer LCD sets are more then good enough. I want a OLED 4K set but this guy was a Xmas gift for my new house from my family and it looks fine to me and I can ignore its flaws.
I definitely could not when I saw the early LCD and other big screen sets plus the Toshiba was cheaper so I bought it in 2005. It still works and looks great in a bedroom now.

fafrd 07-11-2014 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dartman (Post 25595657)
I got a Sony 42ex440 42" LCD/led set and I was scared to death it would have crappy black levels and viewing angles. I had a Toshiba 34" cinemas series CRT set I loved but it was heavy and tiny by comparison.
The Sony uses some kind of PVA screen and actually has good enough black level for me, is very bright and crisp too. Backlight has a tiny bit of light bleed in a couple of corners but on regular viewing you never notice it. Veiwng angle isn't as good as IPS but not bad and from my front room viewing area hasn't been a problem either.
That's the issue for most buyers, newer LCD sets are more then good enough. I want a OLED 4K set but this guy was a Xmas gift for my new house from my family and it looks fine to me and I can ignore its flaws.
I definitely could not when I saw the early LCD and other big screen sets plus the Toshiba was cheaper so I bought it in 2005. It still works and looks great in a bedroom now.


Good objective assessment. When you consider that 65" 4K LED/LCD with PQ at least as good if not better than your Sony 42ex440 42" LCD/led set will be available for $2200 before year-end (Vizio P), the challenge LG will be facing in selling volumes of 65" 4K WOLEDs at more than 4x that price comes into perspective - there is no way. Even with 55" 1080p WOLEDs being offered at $3K, that's still close to 4X the price of competing FALD LED/LCD and there is no way LG is going to be able to sell 4000 55" WOLEDs per day at that pricepoint.


At $2000 for 55" and $5000 for 65", LG gets within striking distance of 2X the price of competing FALD LED/LCD and at that level, they start having a chance.


Ultimately, I believe LG WOLED is going to need to reach pricepoints of 1.5X that of competing FALD LED/LCD in order to gain the required marketshare (as LG themselves have apparently acknowledged).


LG has indicated a target to be offering pricing at that 1.5X level by mid 2015, an objective I believe they will absolutely need to reach if they want to be selling the volumes of WOLEDs they are shooting for in 2016 (saturation of the M2 manufacturing line).


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