Can High Contrast actually be a Negative? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 10:27 AM
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Oh yeah I see the logic in that, what filter did you use it looks really nice
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post #62 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 10:41 AM
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i was lazy i just dropped it in mpc-hc with MadVR set debanding to low i think and made a screenshoot.

i normally use avisynth. i personally pref flash3kyuu_deband (f3kdb). gradfun3 is know to be a good debanding algorithm for avisynth too. i heard about animedither16 but never used it.
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post #63 of 89 Old 07-09-2014, 06:40 PM
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What's avisynth like when you really get plastered?
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post #64 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Actually I have touched 3 separate "High Contrast" issues.

1. Too much contrast hurt my eyes when night watching.
To make myself more comfortable, I (dare I say it on AVS Forums) LOWER contrast using the contrast slider on me TV or PC.


2. Too much display contrast can render the shadow detail invisible due to our eyes limitations.
This happens because all home videos, internet, etc... where mastered for a typical 8-bit 1000:1 display,
but when they are watched on an OLED display steps 1 to 10 can be to dark to see anything if the OLED display calibrated to perfect power curve.

Note that no one confirmed yet what is the visible contrast ratio of a modern OLED TV by measuring step 1 & 255.
It can be as low as only 4000:1 if its a compensated gamma curve which is suited for most existing content,
or 50k:1 if its a true power curve in which you won't see a damn thing with current content.


3. 8-bit is definitely not enough to take advantage of infinite contrast ratio.
So we have infinite shades of darkness to play with, but only about 5 to 10 steps to distribute them on.


I'm not saying high contrast ratio is always BAD.
I'm saying that todays OLED displays have to compensate contrast to properly show current videos (including blu rays) properly, for us to still see some detail in the dark shades.
I'm also saying that there is a human eye limitation factor that lies somewhere around "few thousands":1.
(1) is wrong. You are confusing too much luminance in your peak white with "too much contrast". I'm sorry, but you are.

(2) is wrong. I'm not sure what you're even talking about but you don't lose shadow detail by having better contrast ratio to work with. What you're talking about is called "black crush" and isn't a function of having a good contrast ratio. It can be a function of a badly engineered display and maybe some OLEDs qualify -- I don't know -- but it's not a function of "too much contrast.

(3) is wrong. You'd like more steps, but you don't need them. You want the biggest gap possible between 1 and 255. You don't need more steps to enjoy a big gap, as much as you'd like them. In fact, with most displays, you can't hope to render 255 unique steps... on an OLED it's probably trivial.

You are not really understanding the limitations of the human eye, current displays or current sources. But I can't tell if it's because you don't want to or you really are simply making a conflation error.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #65 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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@rogo

I may be wrong about human eye limitation.
I'll check again when my ST60 plasma arrives.
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post #66 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post
What's avisynth like when you really get plastered?
what do you mean with plastered? (google translate outputs a lot of meanings for it...)
if you mean a banding TV nothing avisynth can only change the source nothing else.
if you mean how good debanding in avisynth is, it is about the same as MadVR with f3kdb. MadVR debanding is based on f3kdb. but MadVR does everything in 16 bit by default using 16 bit in avisynth is not that easy you have full control in avisynth so it is better if you have the time and knowledge .
if you mean getting drunk you can do funny things with avisynth!
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post #67 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 09:58 AM
 
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He's talking about the booze. That's all he'll have when the LCD apocalypse comes into full swing.
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post #68 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 10:28 AM
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4k post and still intentional trolling must be a really nice person.
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post #69 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 10:53 AM
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Artwood is a guy of high moral calibre, dont confuse his love for high quality with hate
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post #70 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 11:08 AM
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this is really really hard to believe for me after this.
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What's avisynth like when you really get plastered?
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post #71 of 89 Old 07-10-2014, 02:54 PM
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A quote:
"Psst… come closer. We’ll let you in on a little secret: black level is arguably the most important element of picture quality on a high-definition television. Here’s why.
Ignoring inflated figures from manufacturers and various measurement methods (ANSI versus on/ off) for a second, contrast ratio is essentially the ratio of peak brightness to black level that a television can produce. In a dark room suitable for critical viewing, assuming we peg peak brightness (100% stimulus white) of a TV to SMPTE’s recommendation of 30 foot-Lamberts (too much brighter would look uncomfortable… remember it’s a dark room), it stands to reason that it’s actually the black level that determines the contrast ratio of the television.
The lower the black level, the higher the contrast ratio. The higher the contrast ratio, the greater the dynamic range – here we’re talking about the transition from blacks to shadow detail to midtones to highlight detail and finally to whites – the HDTV can reproduce, which lends more depth and insight to the image.
Strange as it may sound, black level is also critical to colour rendition on a HDTV, simply because the background luminance is irrevocably added to every single colour that needs to be displayed on screen. Think of it this way: greyish blacks will have more “white” than pure blacks. This “white” will be mixed with the colours, decreasing their saturations (for example red may look pink… a bit extreme, but you get the idea) and washing out the image. Only the deepest blacks can allow the colours to flourish with unadulterated richness."

Mr. Vincent Teoh of hdtvtest.co.uk discussing the importance of black level... in his review for the Pioneer 5090 way back in 2008. This is why many pros and enthusiasts consider brightness above 30-40FTL useless for 'critical' dark room viewing.
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post #72 of 89 Old 07-11-2014, 11:43 AM
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ive been using thx mode on my oled at night as the standard mode was too bright sometimes

couple of scenes have been too bright for me, had me squinting, although, some extra cirricular factors might have contriuted to that

either way, its hard to argue there is too much contrast, i would say, too much brightness
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post #73 of 89 Old 07-11-2014, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
either way, its hard to argue there is too much contrast, i would say, too much brightness
As I understand, in LCD if you lower the backlight you lower the whites along with the dark shades (contrast ratio does not change),
hence back to square one, your eyes will adapt to the dimmer image and you'll still squint in bright scenes after dark ones.

In plasma display there is no backlight so to lower the apparent luminance level you have to lower the contrast value. I imagine this is the case with OLED too.
The Brightness control does not change the luminance of the TV (as we know), so its not a factor.

The only way to minimize the "light distance" between the low shades and bright shades is CONTRAST.
It is what it is.
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post #74 of 89 Old 07-11-2014, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
As I understand, in LCD if you lower the backlight you lower the whites along with the dark shades (contrast ratio does not change),
hence back to square one, your eyes will adapt to the dimmer image and you'll still squint in bright scenes after dark ones.

In plasma display there is no backlight so to lower the apparent luminance level you have to lower the contrast value. I imagine this is the case with OLED too.
The Brightness control does not change the luminance of the TV (as we know), so its not a factor.

The only way to minimize the "light distance" between the low shades and bright shades is CONTRAST.
It is what it is.
I'm not sure that's the case with oled
In the example,above, where I say my standard setting is too bright sometimes and the thx mode isn't nearly as bright, both the contrast and brightness are on the same setting
The main difference I see is with the oled light setting, standard is at 60 and thx is at 35
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post #75 of 89 Old 07-11-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
As I understand, in LCD if you lower the backlight you lower the whites along with the dark shades (contrast ratio does not change),
hence back to square one, your eyes will adapt to the dimmer image and you'll still squint in bright scenes after dark ones.

In plasma display there is no backlight so to lower the apparent luminance level you have to lower the contrast value. I imagine this is the case with OLED too.
The Brightness control does not change the luminance of the TV (as we know), so its not a factor.

The only way to minimize the "light distance" between the low shades and bright shades is CONTRAST.
It is what it is.

If an emissive display is 'perfect' and has true 0 lumens of black output, contrast ratio will be infinite regardless of brightness setting and so the whole concept of contrast ratio is meaningless.


If an emissive has a non-zero but fixed lumen output for 'black' then contrast ratio is directly related to brightness (in a one-to-one manner, ie: they are effectively the same).


And if an emissive display suffers from pixel-to-pixel light bleed or any effect whereby the effective lumen output of a pixel can be influenced by the lumen output of neighboring bright white pixels, contrast ratio takes on more of the meaning that it has in the case of LED/LCD (meaning fixed independent of brightness output). For this last case to have any real meaning, there should be a measurable increase in lumen output of black pixels even in the case of the central pixels of an ANSI checkerboard pattern.
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post #76 of 89 Old 07-19-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
(quoting someone else)

A quote:
"Psst… come closer. We’ll let you in on a little secret: black level is arguably the most important element of picture quality on a high-definition television.
Pssst......come closer. No.

I'm sorry but there is no such thing as one characteristic of a TV more important than another part. It depends upon where you are in the curve of diminishing returns for each of the metrics.

You could have the perfect TV with 100% perfect blacks, and I guarantee you if it were only 200x100 pixels then resolution would be the most important thing around and you just wouldn't give a @#$% about the black level.

Or if it were perfect in every respect (including resolution), but was only 4 bits deep, you'd have a similar lack of enthusiasm for black level.

(etc.) These are extremes of course, but hyperbole sometimes makes the point. Black level will mean nothing if there is something else about the TV sorely lacking.

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!

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post #77 of 89 Old 07-19-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
(1) is wrong. You are confusing too much luminance in your peak white with "too much contrast". I'm sorry, but you are.

(2) is wrong. I'm not sure what you're even talking about but you don't lose shadow detail by having better contrast ratio to work with. What you're talking about is called "black crush" and isn't a function of having a good contrast ratio. It can be a function of a badly engineered display and maybe some OLEDs qualify -- I don't know -- but it's not a function of "too much contrast.

(3) is wrong. You'd like more steps, but you don't need them. You want the biggest gap possible between 1 and 255. You don't need more steps to enjoy a big gap, as much as you'd like them. In fact, with most displays, you can't hope to render 255 unique steps... on an OLED it's probably trivial.

You are not really understanding the limitations of the human eye, current displays or current sources. But I can't tell if it's because you don't want to or you really are simply making a conflation error.
That was indeed a bizarre OP. Not much need to comment I guess as Rogo has nailed it here.
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post #78 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Pssst......come closer. No.

I'm sorry but there is no such thing as one characteristic of a TV more important than another part. It depends upon where you are in the curve of diminishing returns for each of the metrics.

You could have the perfect TV with 100% perfect blacks, and I guarantee you if it were only 200x100 pixels then resolution would be the most important thing around and you just wouldn't give a @#$% about the black level.

Or if it were perfect in every respect (including resolution), but was only 4 bits deep, you'd have a similar lack of enthusiasm for black level.

(etc.) These are extremes of course, but hyperbole sometimes makes the point. Black level will mean nothing if there is something else about the TV sorely lacking.
Oh you thread jockeys are always trying to come up with an argument!

I mean: come on. 200x100 display? That's not hyperbole it's just silly. Obviously if the TV is flawed in some significant way then you wouldn't care about the contrast but all things being relative black level is still the most important factor impacting picture quality. The ISF asserts this and while there are other aspects that you want to weigh-- for example, our DLP can't match the contrast/black level of my plasma but at 82" it makes a much bigger impression of home 'theater' than my 55" panasonic so maybe I'll watch that instead tonight-- sure. But there is no way I'd argue that the picture was better. It's bigger and that could lead to more enjoyment but it's certainly not better.
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post #79 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Oh you thread jockeys are always trying to come up with an argument!

I mean: come on. 200x100 display? That's not hyperbole it's just silly.
It's not silly; that you cannot see how one metric has no intrinsic value over another without first stating how adequate it's level is, is just over simplifying things.

Think about it. The concept that static contrast being more important to PQ than anything else makes the implicit assumption that all those other things are adequate.

Let's choose the black level thing. Take an emissive device and declare it to have perfect black levels. Does that black level matter if the TV is unwatchable because of some other lacking attribute? No. You're ignoring the assumptions you (and others) are making in their statements when they attempt to weight different display characteristics against another.

It's a little like saying that the existence of a car's engine is more important than having wheels. You can't say that either without implicit assumptions about both being made.

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!

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post #80 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 03:48 PM
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i would take a "low" CR screen if i get perfect motion clearness with it.
motion clearness is a very huge problem on current LCD and OLED screens and no one really cares about that...
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post #81 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
i would take a low CR screen for perfect motion clearness.
motion clearness is a very huge problem on current LCD and OLED screens and no one really cares about that...
If you mean you'd "trade" a low CR screen for a one with perfect motion handling, ABSOLUTELY! We're still the dystopian era of motion handling IMO.
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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #82 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
It's not silly; that you cannot see how one metric has no intrinsic value over another without first stating how adequate it's level is, is just over simplifying things.

Think about it. The concept that static contrast being more important to PQ than anything else makes the implicit assumption that all those other things are adequate.
No, it really is silly. The only implicit assumption for this comparison is that the things are comparable. If you don't have a TV, you can't compare. If you are blind, you can't compare. And so on. So what? You're just fogging up the issue.

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post #83 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 06:08 PM
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No, it really is silly. The only implicit assumption for this comparison is that the things are comparable.
No, the implicit assumption here is that all things are otherwise within sensible limits. At THAT point you are then gauging that contrast matters the most. Contrast (to pick one) does not matter the most if something else is sorely lacking. The motion handling comment above by mightyhuhn was spot on in this regard.

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If you don't have a TV, you can't compare.
Not having a TV is not a quality of a TV. You're not even remotely following this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
If you are blind, you can't compare. And so on. So what? You're just fogging up the issue.
The fog exists within you. Blind? So what indeed.

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #84 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 07:42 PM
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So what your saying is if I go to the store right now to buy a tv that the sets on the wall are not going to be comparable in other areas? Where are you shopping for TVs that you can buy a 200 X 100 television? Hell, I haven't even seen a 720p set in ages! Lol! Everyone understands that you don't blindly ignore all other characteristics than black levels-- no one said that. The point of the article I quoted is that in the areas that affect picture quality black level is arguably the most important. It doesn't say resolution is unimportant, it doesn't say that motion resolution doesn't matter, it doesn't say color accuracy is over rated-- it says of all these important aspects affecting picture quality that black level is arguably the most important.

Seriously, you're being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative.
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post #85 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
So what your saying is if I go to the store right now to buy a tv that the sets on the wall are not going to be comparable in other areas?
Didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the importance of any particular attribute depends entirely on the degree to which the others are managed. You cannot flat out say that black levels are the most important part.

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Where are you shopping for TVs that you can buy a 200 X 100 television? Hell, I haven't even seen a 720p set in ages! Lol!
You seriously ignored where I declared that as hyperbole to make a point??

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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Everyone understands that you don't blindly ignore all other characteristics than black levels-- no one said that.
You are, the moment you declare that black levels are unequivocally the most important. Again, black level is not the most important without knowing the degree of all the others. If black level were half-way acceptable, and resolution were lacking, then resolution would become the most important.
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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #86 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 09:25 PM
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Again, you're arguing for the sole purpose of being argumentative. If you'd like to argue or disagree that's fine but the only case you've made is to make an example of a fake resolution for a fake TV to try and make your point. Your very posting style is evident of your need to argue as you only quote specific lines from my posts and ignore the parts that are inconvenient for you. On other forums we have a word for this type of post-- but I've been warned so I'll just say I have no more interest in entertaining you.

For anyone living in the real world here is some information about contrast and why it is so important. The first is a quote from none other than Joel Silver, president and founder of the ISF or the-people-who-define-what-an-accurate-picture-is.

_____

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/i...icture-quality

While the industry is pushing for higher and higher resolutions with new 4K TVs, the president and founder of the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF), Joel Silver, still maintains that resolution isn't the most important factor in good picture quality.

Speaking at the Panasonic Convention 2014 in Amsterdam this week, Silver said that for the ISF, which drives standards for the TV industry and trains professional calibrators, "the fourth and least of our four key parameters is resolution."

"There’s some controversy within the industry as to where resolution sits. But, for us, the single most apparent thing you see is dynamic range."

However, Silver was at pains to point out that this doesn't mean there are no benefits to 4K TVs. On the contrary, he believes 4K TVs have a role to play in improving all aspects of TV picture quality, not just the amount of detail.

"We’re constantly compromised by losing three-quarters of the colour information that comes to our television," Silver explained. "Even with Blu-ray we’re only getting one in every four pixels of colour information."

"We’ll finally go beyond that one day with Ultra High Definition and get all the colour information."

Silver also praised Panasonic for being the first consumer TV brand to adhere to the ITU's new standard for gamma, which he explained will have a serious impact in improving the quality of dark scenes in films and TV.

"Panasonic’s 2014 TVs are the first consumer products I know of that follow ITU's specification on gamma. Basically we’re talking shadow detail here; it affects the bottom end of our greyscale. Imagine going through the dark spaces in a new way… the details and the blacks will be forever changed.”
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/i...Vh35qWUlum6.99

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https://www.imagingscience.com/upload/tomsguide.pdf

"The ISF mantra was: Dynamic Range, Color Saturation, Colorimetry, and Resolution."

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http://televisions.reviewed.com/feat...-meets-the-eye

"The conclusive evidence as to why TV contrast ratio is important comes down to the amount of "breathing room" a television can give its on-screen content. You could watch the same movie side-by-side on two different TVs, and have entirely different aesthetic experiences, because one TV has twice the contrast ratio as the other. A star sitting high in a cloudless sky is most impressive when the star's imminent brightness is framed by the inversely positioned darkness; because contrast ratio handles both ends of the light-dark spectrum, the larger contrast ratio is always going to look more realistic.
Regardless of actual luminance levels, a very bright TV with a narrow contrast ratio will also have a bright minimum luminance, and be unable to create a truly black backdrop for the star to shine against. Conversely, a very dark TV with a narrow contrast ratio will have dim, greyish peak luminance, and be unable to realistically create the massive luminance of the star. Only by achieving both realistic darkness and realistic brightness is a television poised to properly recreate real life."
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Last edited by sage11x; 07-20-2014 at 09:31 PM.
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post #87 of 89 Old 07-20-2014, 11:24 PM
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Mr. Vincent Teoh of hdtvtest.co.uk discussing the importance of black level... in his review for the Pioneer 5090 way back in 2008. This is why many pros and enthusiasts consider brightness above 30-40FTL useless for 'critical' dark room viewing.
That is very true. If you're looking at a picture at 40fL, that's far brighter than the directors or cinematographers ever intended for their films to be seen at.

I can tell you in mastering we struggle and fight and discuss and argue about black levels and contrast constantly. My experience is that this is generally a bigger issue than color per se. I'm usually pushing the directors to let the image be a little bit brighter, but the filmmakers are generally frightened of making their films too bright, and hence the average level comes down. It's an ongoing struggle.

We already have a good standard in place with Rec709/BT1886, and the more people deviate from this, the more your pictures are gonna wind up wonky. I don't dispute that there are people in situations where they're forced to watch pictures with daylight streaming in from windows, light spill from above, etc., and so compromises get made. Just controlling the light in the viewing environment solves a lot of these issues.
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post #88 of 89 Old 07-21-2014, 06:14 PM
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The next Post in this series will be, Is 8K Resolution Too Much? This is like someone who posted that perfect black levels are too black?
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post #89 of 89 Old 07-21-2014, 07:52 PM
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Speaking at the Panasonic Convention 2014 in Amsterdam this week, Silver said that for the ISF, which drives standards for the TV industry and trains professional calibrators, "the fourth and least of our four key parameters is resolution." "There’s some controversy within the industry as to where resolution sits. But, for us, the single most apparent thing you see is dynamic range."
Mr. Silver is very wise. My experience is that coming up with more resolution is easy; making the picture accurate in terms of dynamic range and colorimetry is very hard. We've already seen this with cheap $499 4K Chinese sets that look like crap. It doesn't take that much to make a UHD panel. The real problem is handling all the other parameters that go into picture quality.

I'm reminded of speaker manufacturers that look only at frequency response and forget about everything else. There's lots and lots that go into determining how something performs and measures; attacking just one facet is very short-sighted.

As to contrast: we already have perfectly good existing standards for contrast, and the key is just to make sure everything agrees with that. If you're seeing a picture with whiter whites and blacker blacks, you're most likely seeing something beyond Rec709, meaning images never approved by the director or DP.
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