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post #61 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
They were seriously considering not to include a drive but there was to much opposition.

Is there a source for this information?
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post #62 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 11:24 AM
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Is there a source for this information?
Yes, Google it, there are tons. They mainly wanted to do it to eliminate the used gamed market, which is one of the reasons they movie companies want to do it as well. The problem is many people wanted the full use and resale rights to the content they purchased. Plus, for the majority of people downloading 50GB games takes awhile. Just imagine the problems with 100GB plus 4K downloads.
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post #63 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 01:10 PM
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Yes, Google it, there are tons. They mainly wanted to do it to eliminate the used gamed market, which is one of the reasons they movie companies want to do it as well. The problem is many people wanted the full use and resale rights to the content they purchased. Plus, for the majority of people downloading 50GB games takes awhile. Just imagine the problems with 100GB plus 4K downloads.

I Googled it and found nothing. Even so, if they weren't going to include it because they were afraid of piracy/game re-use, it doesn't further the argument that they weren't going to include it because there was no demand for it. It seems the opposite is true.
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post #64 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 01:14 PM
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Just imagine the problems with 100GB plus 4K downloads.
They won't be anywhere near that big. They're going to follow the same philosophy your cable company does with bitrate of HD channels. They'll make the files as small / as low bitrate as possible to where most people won't complain, but they certainly won't be perfect. I wouldn't expect anything higher than 15Mb/sec and I wouldn't be surprised if it's lower.

Blu-Ray is sort of an aberration in terms of consumer media delivery. The discs were designed to hold MPEG-2 content (which needs high bitrates) and then we got much more efficient codecs due to the competition with HD-DVD. The result is large discs that allow ridiculously high bitrates for AVC (H.264). This means blu-ray discs that use AVC (H.264) are extremely close to the uncompressed master they're created from.
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post #65 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Is there a source for this information?
Lots of sources..


Microsoft considered removing Xbox One's disc drive.
http://www.totalxbox.com/68723/micro...es-disc-drive/


Sony considered hard drive-free PS4
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/s...drive-free-ps4
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post #66 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
They won't be anywhere near that big. They're going to follow the same philosophy your cable company does with bitrate of HD channels. They'll make the files as small / as low bitrate as possible to where most people won't complain, but they certainly won't be perfect. I wouldn't expect anything higher than 15Mb/sec and I wouldn't be surprised if it's lower.

Blu-Ray is sort of an aberration in terms of consumer media delivery. The discs were designed to hold MPEG-2 content (which needs high bitrates) and then we got much more efficient codecs due to the competition with HD-DVD. The result is large discs that allow ridiculously high bitrates for AVC (H.264). This means blu-ray discs that use AVC (H.264) are extremely close to the uncompressed master they're created from.
Question is, how much will a 4K blu-ray movie cost and how much will a 4K quality movie file cost (and how long will it take average Joe to download this file).
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post #67 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
They won't be anywhere near that big. They're going to follow the same philosophy your cable company does with bitrate of HD channels. They'll make the files as small / as low bitrate as possible to where most people won't complain, but they certainly won't be perfect. I wouldn't expect anything higher than 15Mb/sec and I wouldn't be surprised if it's lower.

Blu-Ray is sort of an aberration in terms of consumer media delivery. The discs were designed to hold MPEG-2 content (which needs high bitrates) and then we got much more efficient codecs due to the competition with HD-DVD. The result is large discs that allow ridiculously high bitrates for AVC (H.264). This means blu-ray discs that use AVC (H.264) are extremely close to the uncompressed master they're created from.

I think for Blu-ray 4K, they need at least 60 mbps for the video (80 mbps is more preferable), but this is only for 24fps or 30fps. Double the frame rate, as well as include 10 bit color at 4:2:0, and I'm not sure if even 100 mbps and 100GB is enough bandwidth/space. For only 24fps or 30fps it certainly would be.


What are everyone's thoughts on this and what do you think they'll likely do? Anyone have any inside info?
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post #68 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 05:58 PM
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How about calling it Blu Max? :-)
How about calling it Blu iMax
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post #69 of 156 Old 08-07-2014, 08:23 PM
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I think for Blu-ray 4K, they need at least 60 mbps for the video (80 mbps is more preferable), but this is only for 24fps or 30fps. Double the frame rate, as well as include 10 bit color at 4:2:0, and I'm not sure if even 100 mbps and 100GB is enough bandwidth/space. For only 24fps or 30fps it certainly would be.


What are everyone's thoughts on this and what do you think they'll likely do? Anyone have any inside info?
Those bitrates are totally unnecessary. HEVC is supposed to be 2x more efficient than AVC (H.264). If they hit that HEVC UHD should be able to deliver the same relative quality as Blu-ray at the same bitrates. With H.264 4x the pixels don't need 4x the bitrate, only 2x for the same relative quality since it doesn't scale linearly. HEVC's improved efficiency counteracts that 2x.

Increasing the frame rate doesn't require a linear increase in bitrate either. Is much less. Strangley enough, 10-bit content actually compresses better so that also won't drive up the bitrate.
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post #70 of 156 Old 08-08-2014, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Lots of sources..


Microsoft considered removing Xbox One's disc drive.
http://www.totalxbox.com/68723/micro...es-disc-drive/


Sony considered hard drive-free PS4
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/s...drive-free-ps4

The ps4 link is for a hard drive not a Blu-ray drive and I don't think MS or Sony was seriously considering dropping either. They probably consider hundreds of ideas for each new console.
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post #71 of 156 Old 08-08-2014, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Question is, how much will a 4K blu-ray movie cost and how much will a 4K quality movie file cost (and how long will it take average Joe to download this file).

I don't see much of a cost difference. You can typically buy a new Blu-ray release for around $25. Downloading it costs about the same on FIOS. Maybe a little less if it's on sale. You can rent it for 24 hours on FIOS for around $8.
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post #72 of 156 Old 08-08-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Those bitrates are totally unnecessary. HEVC is supposed to be 2x more efficient than AVC (H.264). If they hit that HEVC UHD should be able to deliver the same relative quality as Blu-ray at the same bitrates. With H.264 4x the pixels don't need 4x the bitrate, only 2x for the same relative quality since it doesn't scale linearly. HEVC's improved efficiency counteracts that 2x.

Increasing the frame rate doesn't require a linear increase in bitrate either. Is much less. Strangley enough, 10-bit content actually compresses better so that also won't drive up the bitrate.

The technology required for 4K isn't a hurdle as some think. 4K Blu-ray is easily doable. They just need to iron out the details. Streaming/downloading is also doable. I have FIOS which delivers fiber to my house and a fiber cable can carry an insane amount of bandwidth, so at a minimum I'll be able stream from Verizon without problems. Netflix may be problematic on Friday/Saturday nights.
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post #73 of 156 Old 08-08-2014, 07:48 AM
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The ps4 link is for a hard drive not a Blu-ray drive
right..
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Originally Posted by KidHorn
and I don't think MS or Sony was seriously considering dropping either. They probably consider hundreds of ideas for each new console.
No blu-ray drive will make console much cheaper ($100 cheaper) plus drop in disc sales and increase in online sales. These two elements will make shure that Sony and Microsoft seriously consider not to include a blu-ray drive.
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post #74 of 156 Old 08-08-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I don't see much of a cost difference. You can typically buy a new Blu-ray release for around $25. Downloading it costs about the same on FIOS. Maybe a little less if it's on sale. You can rent it for 24 hours on FIOS for around $8.
3D blu-ray is more expensive than blu-ray. Is there much of a cost difference? How much is ''much of a cost difference''? Blu-ray is way to expensive as it is, enough reason for lots of folks not to buy blu-ray stuff.

4K (blu-ray) movies will be more expensive (and what about 3D 4K blu-ray?), may it be a few bucks or more, and therfor way beyond what most people are willing to pay for a movie.

As i see it eventually DVD will disapear, blu-ray will become the new DVD, and 4K blu-ray will become the new blu-ray. Blu-ray will be niche and 4K blu-ray will be even more niche.

btw i watch six blu-ray's a week (and i ain't gonna rent!), i do not believe that ten years from now i will watch six 4K blu-ray's a week. Main reason, blu-ray quality will be good enough and, at best, slightly higher price, is a turn-off.
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post #75 of 156 Old 08-09-2014, 06:38 AM
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Speaking of video games, the obvious solution to hold you over for 4k content is to "make" your own - just get yourself a quality 80+ rated 1000w power supply along with a nice CPU (i7-4790k) and a crazy GPU (Radeon 295x2). Then, assuming the game isn't 10+ years old or was coded by idiots, you can enjoy uncompressed, natively generated 4k content.

Or you could wait a month or two and get an i7-5960X CPU instead, because honestly, if you're spending $1500 on a crazy GPU (not to mention several thousand on a 4k display with DisplayPort 1.2), then what's another $1000 for a crazy CPU as well?


(then there's always semi-modern console emulation as well; while the textures won't be detailed, the polygons will still be incredibly crisp)

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post #76 of 156 Old 08-11-2014, 06:33 PM
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Um, businesses don't engage in every single incrementally profitable business. Especially when the profits begin to approach nothing.

And as for bandwidth, the cost to provide you a fully saturated 50 megabit/sec line each month and a nearly empty one is basically the same thing -- so long as the CDN/caching is properly inside the provider's network. So yes, it's zero for your cable company. And my point was about incremental bandwidth, not a pointless discussion of DSL vs. cable.



Sorry, but computers are not driving any of this. Maybe your analog is valid, but removable media storage has already died there. And, by the way, the "demand for higher capacity" is more or less over on computers, though it exists in the cloud and datacenters.

As for "profit" from 4K, where is that coming from? The big buyers of discs historically have been Blockbuster and video chains, Netflix, Redbox. One is gone, the other two won't be buying 4K discs.

I cannot math out a scenario where in the next 3-4 years a tiny population of 4K TV owners buying a tiny amount of 4K players and discs makes a market.

And I cannot see any scenario where a disc-based format is even marginally interesting to all but the fringe 3-4 years from now.



Would you feel better if I said several?
I'm not wedded to the disc, just to whatever format provides better picture quality. So where does that leave us? Is there enough interest in 4K discs to drive a niche market? If it's only gonna be 4K streaming, will it be better PQ than 4K discs would've been(or at least substantively better than 1080p)?

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post #77 of 156 Old 08-11-2014, 07:46 PM
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I'm not wedded to the disc, just to whatever format provides better picture quality. So where does that leave us? Is there enough interest in 4K discs to drive a niche market? If it's only gonna be 4K streaming, will it be better PQ than 4K discs would've been(or at least substantively better than 1080p)?
Blu-ray sales are up 18% from same time last year. It is DVD that is dying as you can get better quality ffrrom streaming. This is not the case with 4K. Japan is using minimum 40mbs to stream. Netflix is using substandard 4K at 15-18mbs. 4K will require at least one more gen of physical media as US broadband speeds need to increase from 18mbs average.
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post #78 of 156 Old 08-11-2014, 09:11 PM
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I'm not wedded to the disc, just to whatever format provides better picture quality. So where does that leave us? Is there enough interest in 4K discs to drive a niche market? If it's only gonna be 4K streaming, will it be better PQ than 4K discs would've been(or at least substantively better than 1080p)?
I sure hope there'll be a better format to own.

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Blu-ray sales are up 18% from same time last year. It is DVD that is dying as you can get better quality ffrrom streaming. This is not the case with 4K. Japan is using minimum 40mbs to stream. Netflix is using substandard 4K at 15-18mbs. 4K will require at least one more gen of physical media as US broadband speeds need to increase from 18mbs average.
Well, if it "requires" it, you might be disappointed.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #79 of 156 Old 08-13-2014, 11:49 PM
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BD 4K is bound to happen because there to many backer that support BDA....Microsoft said it would never support a drive in its gaming system with Blu-ray...Well how that workout for them ? BDA is already ahead of the curve more than we think because BDXL, format supports 100 GB and 128 GB write-once discs and 100 GB rewritable discs for commercial applications. It was defined in June 2010.


I don't have a problem with streaming but to think its going to replace hard disc is just a pipe dream right now especially when the US broadband infrastructure being really poor per household right now.

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post #80 of 156 Old 08-14-2014, 12:31 AM
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I'm not in the least bit optimistic that BD 4K (or whatever it eventually winds up being called) is ever going to take off in the consumer market. For one thing, it's really only the cinephiles and the like that are going to truly be interested in something like that, especially if they cost anything more than $15-20 / movie. 4K televisions have no need of native 4K content to get Joe Six-pack to buy one from Costco. All they have to do to seel them is point out how they can "upgrade the picture" to 4K and put it on an 85" screen, all for the cost of what he paid for his edge-lit 55" LCD 2 years ago.

Streaming services like Amazon provide 1080 content already and consumers are flocking to streaming services. If the image can be "upscaled" they'll be sufficiently happy that they are getting the picture quality they should be. Native 4K content need not be streamed with its obscene bandwidth requirement. For those few people that do manage to maintain a 4K stream, I suspect many will consider it a nice perk or bonus, especially given how poorly compressed the images via Netflix are right now.

The BDA may very well get behind BD4K. But I suspect it's likely going to be for more commercial/industrial use of data storage than consumer. Sure, someone out there will make players for the niche market. Sony may even make the discs for the consumer to buy. But I'm not holding my breath that either will be available before 5 years have gone by, and even then I'm not convinced that any sort of disc delivery of 4K will ever become affordable.
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post #81 of 156 Old 08-18-2014, 09:02 AM
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PHYSICAL MEDIA TO ACCOUNT FOR A 5TH OF 4K VIEWING BY 2017, ACCORDING TO TDG:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-ma...1408183883.htm
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post #82 of 156 Old 08-18-2014, 10:52 AM
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PHYSICAL MEDIA TO ACCOUNT FOR A 5TH OF 4K VIEWING BY 2017, ACCORDING TO TDG:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-ma...1408183883.htm
This forecast seems reasonable looking at the adoption rate of HD physical media. However, if the Industry settles on a single physical delivery format, the adoption rate may be somewhat faster.

Current prices for UHD TV sets are much lower than HD TV sets of similar sizes at the release of the first Blu-Ray's. Without competing UHD disk formats there will be no fence to sit on delaying adoption.

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post #83 of 156 Old 08-27-2014, 05:48 PM
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This forecast seems reasonable looking at the adoption rate of HD physical media. However, if the Industry settles on a single physical delivery format, the adoption rate may be somewhat faster.

Current prices for UHD TV sets are much lower than HD TV sets of similar sizes at the release of the first Blu-Ray's. Without competing UHD disk formats there will be no fence to sit on delaying adoption.
The Specs for UHD blu-ray should be finalised soon. CES might feature players. Rumors are saying , units on sale for Christmas 2015. Only the people on the BDA know what the final specs will be.
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post #84 of 156 Old 08-27-2014, 05:56 PM
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Meanwhile I'm having a cold one. It's been so hot here for the last two-three months, I've never seen that.
Again today was just over 90 degrees (F). ...If it keeps going like this I'll be watching my UHD BDs in Alaska.
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post #85 of 156 Old 08-27-2014, 07:21 PM
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The Specs for UHD blu-ray should be finalised soon. CES might feature players. Rumors are saying , units on sale for Christmas 2015. Only the people on the BDA know what the final specs will be.
How 'bout the HDMI spec?

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post #86 of 156 Old 08-29-2014, 10:27 AM
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AMAZON 4K PROGRAMMING COMING SOON:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...tober/#!bMk5h0
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post #87 of 156 Old 08-29-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

No blu-ray drive will make console much cheaper ($100 cheaper) plus drop in disc sales and increase in online sales. These two elements will make shure that Sony and Microsoft seriously consider not to include a blu-ray drive.

Yea, you saw the backlash on the Xbox One when MS said, No more used games....World wide backlash. People are starting to accept digital games but, most still don't.


I actually prefer physical games, why ? If I have to uninstall it due to space (already at 85%), and I want to play it again, I don't want to have to download 25gb+ and wait 4 hours just to be able to play it.


I would bet the next system still has a disc dive of some type....with some major advantages for doing digital ($10-15 off titles, etc) I don't think that is going anywhere any time soon...

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post #88 of 156 Old 08-30-2014, 05:10 AM
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I would bet the next system still has a disc dive of some type....with some major advantages for doing digital ($10-15 off titles, etc) I don't think that is going anywhere any time soon...
I will happily take the other side of that bet. Whether successor consoles are merely 4-5 years away (unlikely but possible) or 6+ years away (more traditional interval), the current generation will see more and more digital sales. People will get used to it. Cloud "lockers" will allow you to play your games at a friend's place. More intelligent pricing of older titles will make the whole idea of buying cheap "used" games pointless. The lack of a cut for retailers will allow slightly lower average game prices overall.

Why is there a disk drive 5 years from now, even on an Xbox One? Because there was a backlash in 2013?

The Xbox "Two" and PS 5 will be disk free.
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #89 of 156 Old 08-30-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I will happily take the other side of that bet. Whether successor consoles are merely 4-5 years away (unlikely but possible) or 6+ years away (more traditional interval), the current generation will see more and more digital sales. People will get used to it. Cloud "lockers" will allow you to play your games at a friend's place. More intelligent pricing of older titles will make the whole idea of buying cheap "used" games pointless. The lack of a cut for retailers will allow slightly lower average game prices overall.

Why is there a disk drive 5 years from now, even on an Xbox One? Because there was a backlash in 2013?

The Xbox "Two" and PS 5 will be disk free.
Rogo is 100% on the money. I work in the video game industry and have seen first hand the move towards digital distribution. My last title was disc and digital. The current title I'm working on is digital only.

Case in point:
http://www.joystiq.com/2014/08/24/re...-were-digital/

I do both console and pc titles and they are both moving in the same direction. Consoles are just taking a bit longer to get there. If you look at prices of older (1 year +) titles on various digital platforms like steam, you will see prices so low that a used market is redundant even if it was still possible.

Another trend is the whole free-to-play genre which is further adding to the digital-only movement.
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post #90 of 156 Old 08-30-2014, 03:12 PM
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Not a video game thread, guys. Let's get back to 4K HDTV, please.
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