Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
I agree. It's up to the mods. Gotta petition for it.
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post #512 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
The way the manufacturers are gung ho on 4K I wouldn't be surprised if sub 1080 disappears completely and 1080 becomes the ultra cheap super discounted Walmart/Costco/etc sets.
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post #513 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
If you think 2009 was the glory days, you should have seen this place back in 2003 when I joined! My 32" (!) Sony XBR weighed 100lbs I think...
No, actually, I'm with you. I was thinking more of 2003-2005 or 2006. By 2009, the plasma vs. LCD fanboy fights were all over the place.

It does seem like a dedicated UHD section would be reasonable.

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post #514 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Not only would it be flat out fun, it would be educational and informative to get perspectives from different calibrators across the country, not to mention different display choices.
Are there are other calibrators across the country? I thought there were only 3, all on or near the east coast.
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post #515 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 05:18 PM
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Just you. You're welcome at my house anytime. Have you calibrated a 70x850b yet?
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post #516 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
we have been kicking this around, but it was pointed out there are no separate forums for other resolutions....

also considered one for OLED's: perhaps soon
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post #517 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Just you. You're welcome at my house anytime. Have you calibrated a 70x850b yet?
Not me Andy, I'm not a calibrator but thanks. I've used Kevin Miller for my displays as he lives very close to me.
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post #518 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
I got yelled down when I suggested that last year. I would combine the Front Projector +/- $3000 threads and put Screens as a sub thread inside them. I also would move the Calibration and Screen Height threads. I would add a dedicated OLED section and 4K/UHD LCD threads and move the Rear projection and CRT to the bottom.
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post #519 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
nah, there's no subforums for 720p vs 1080p is there? is there even a subforum for sd vs hd?


UHD is just a natural progression of whatever technology is used to display it. a UHD lcd has a lot more in common with 1080p lcd's than it does to a UHD oled. makes more sense to me to group the lcd's together, group the oleds together, and the resolution they support will gradually transition to UHD in both anyway.
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post #520 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 08:46 PM
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Sorry but I disagree. UHD should stand alone.
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post #521 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Sorry but I disagree. UHD should stand alone.
as a subforum within each tech? that wouldn't be so bad. I just don't think we should have ALL UHD in one group just because of the resolution. I hate to be 'snobby' but I'm not interested in anything lcd based right now, and I don't want all the UHD oled topics(when they arrive) to get lost in the ocean of UHD lcd topics that I don't care about.

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post #522 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 10:31 PM
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How about a 4k forum, with display type sub forums?
Also add content subs, possibly device subs when they start coming out

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post #523 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
as a subforum within each tech? that wouldn't be so bad. I just don't think we should have ALL UHD in one group just because of the resolution. I hate to be 'snobby' but I'm not interested in anything lcd based right now, and I don't want all the UHD oled topics(when they arrive) to get lost in the ocean of UHD lcd topics that I don't care about.
I understand but I have no interest in plasmas but I still recommend them to people. I'm not sure if you'll see any 1080p LCD's in the over 65" range in a few years. From a manufacturing cost standpoint I don't think a 4k set is much different than a 2k set. Right now they are at a premium but a Sony 55" is going for under $2k and a 65" for under $3k. I expect a 25% drop yet by end of 2014.
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post #524 of 538 Old 08-20-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I understand but I have no interest in plasmas but I still recommend them to people. I'm not sure if you'll see any 1080p LCD's in the over 65" range in a few years. From a manufacturing cost standpoint I don't think a 4k set is much different than a 2k set. Right now they are at a premium but a Sony 55" is going for under $2k and a 65" for under $3k. I expect a 25% drop yet by end of 2014.
but that kind of supports my thoughts that we don't need to separate UHD from HD. since UHD is just going to replace HD anyway.


why make a UHD forum, just to end up killing the HD one?


I'm not saying we won't see more UHD or cheaper UHD, I'm just saying we're not likely to see HD and UHD persist together. it's not going to be like plasma and lcd both being made at the same price points and sizes for a decade. UHD will obviously take over the larger sizes and REPLACE them, slowly moving down until it's replaced them all. like you said, if you're shopping for a 80" lcd, chances are they will ALL be UHD very soon. so why do we need a subforum for UHD if there's no HD displays left anyway?


this isn't a plasma vs lcd thing. I only used that as an example of how the tech is more important than the resolution. it could just as easily be a situation where I want only lcd, or only oled. the point is I will have that choice, and that's why they have subforums. we're not going to be given a choice between HD and UHD models, UHD will just replace HD over time. the same way 1080p replaced 720p.


but, I don't want to derail this thread over a difference of opinion. I've explained where I'm coming from, and you're totally entitled to have a different view. I can see how ppl will get caught up in the UHD transmission and while that's happening, it could be convenient for the early adopters if everything from content/source, to display was found in one location. it just won't help me personally, so I don't want it

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post #525 of 538 Old 08-21-2014, 10:07 AM
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I can think of one reason to segregate out a UHD forum. Maybe it will stop the endless '4K is no better than HD' arguments from some. There have been too many threads where that argument comes close to destroying the thread it's in. Perhaps a UHD only forum will minimize that.
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post #526 of 538 Old 08-21-2014, 10:34 AM
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The real benefit of a dedicated 4K/UHD forum would be to provide a way for people to discuss everything that has to do with 4K in one place (UHD LCD's, UHD OLEDS, UHD projectors, UHD physical media and players, online UHD content and playback devices, UHD broadcast content, UHD cameras, specs, etc.). In the short term, such a place could be useful, both to those who wish to discuss 4K and for those who don't want the rest of the forums to be taken over by discussions of 4K. However, long term, it doesn't make sense to keep it segregated as, eventually, 2 things would happen...

1) UHD content, displays, etc. will become so plentiful that the 4K forum essentially becomes its own world, equal in size to the rest of the forums and would require just as many sub forums to keep it organized.

2) Eventually everything will be 4K. When that happens, it is likely that the rest of the forums would become a ghost town. Ideally, you would then want them to be merged back together in order to save space, prevent the likelihood of somebody asking a question in the old forums and not getting a response, and to bring all of the old tips and tricks that are contained in them, which still remain relevant, without having to re-post it all.
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post #527 of 538 Old 08-21-2014, 10:38 AM
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^^^those arguments will fall away once more 4k sets come out and there's actual 4k content available beside Netflix sub Blu-ray offering.
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post #528 of 538 Old 08-21-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
we have been kicking this around, but it was pointed out there are no separate forums for other resolutions....

also considered one for OLED's: perhaps soon
just to add to this: I don't think we are quite ready for any changes yet, and personally i don't like sub forums: they tend to get less traffic

that said we know some changes will have to be made: at the appropriate time we will make recommendations to the Administrators who will make the final decision....remember way back when there was only a single forum for flat panels: at that time it was plasma and LCD's, and it took a long time to break it into three (as it is now)

Thanks for the suggestions....keeping an open mind for now

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post #529 of 538 Old 08-21-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
just to add to this: I don't think we are quite ready for any changes yet, and personally i don't like sub forums: they tend to get less traffic

that said we know some changes will have to be made: at the appropriate time we will make recommendations to the Administrators who will make the final decision....remember way back when there was only a single forum for flat panels: at that time it was plasma and LCD's, and it took a long time to break it into three (as it is now)

Thanks for the suggestions....keeping an open mind for now
Didn't realize I would start such an active discussion with my original suggestion (at least original on THIS thread), but I'm glad I did! Thanks to all who voiced their opinion. I'm sure the Moderators and Admins will take them to heart...
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post #530 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post
I'd call 65" a medium set. I get that most people buy small or medium.

Most professional calibrated reviews are already of the 65" models so there are plenty of data points for that. The pro reviews almost never do calibrated large sets so there's almost no good data on them. This particular shoot out has always been of the most expensive consumer tech. They included the biggest Pioneer Kuru Elite's when almost no one could afford them (which is why Pioneer gave up), they then included the Sharp Elite's which were way out of most people's price ranges costing at least double comparable sized sets (which, again, is why they were short lived). So in that tradition it's completely consistent they would review the high-end 4K large panels. This particular shoot out has never been about comparing the most popular affordable panels but the best available panels.
I have to disagree that 65" is a "medium set". Statistically, very few houses have 65" sets, let alone bigger. 55" is probably the largest size with significant numbers. I'd peg 65" squarely as "Large" and anything over 65" as "Extra Large". 90"+ would have to be an extreme category. Medium should really be something that is somewhat reflected as near a majority in actual distribution numbers.

I think the vast majority of people would still consider 55" to be "large". The main question is whether the cutoff to Medium should be at 50" or 46-47", IMO. It's really only the hyper-technical "gotta have the best" AVS crowd that thinks mostly in terms of very large sets.

My personal ratings, which I strongly suspect a majority of non-AVS users would agree with, perhaps +/- 5":

Small: 12-30"
Medium: 31-49"
Large: 50"-65"
Extra-Large: 66"-89"
XXL: 90"+

This, of course, puts nearly all projection systems in at least the XL, if not XXL category.

I would really like to see a shootout of L-XL televisions, with a $10k cap to weed out the insanely expensive systems, and a healthy number of $3-6k sets that are actually attainable by a reasonable majority of enthusiast purchasers. Because, personally, outside of perhaps a small LCD in the kitchen (or back of the carseat), I don't have much interest in owning anything less than a 50" set (I MAY be talked into a 46"-class set for the MBR by my wife, who doesn't want every room dominated by a large TV screen!), and considerably larger than that for the main viewing room. I currently have a 65" Panny plasma which I adore for my main viewing room, but there's really nothing semi-reasonable on the market right now in the over 65" class that would be a good substitute, and that mere mortals like myself can afford. The Sammy F8500 would be too small an upgrade, since there's only a small quality difference, and zero size or resolution difference. The OLED sets just aren't available in reasonable numbers yet (esp in the over 65" category), and I still have longevity concerns about these early generations. And 4K LCD tech sets clearly have some distance to go before the catch up with Plasma, let alone OLED, contrast and black levels.

Based on reading this thread, I know I'm not alone in this wish.
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post #531 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
We've been over this before. Robert allowed TVs he didn't sell to participate. He would have had to buy one from BB and use it, but was willing to do that. However, Panasonic did not want their TV in the shootout.
Curious about this: What on earth does Panasonic's opinion matter about what Robert chooses to do with a TV he purchased, after he buys it?

As long as the results are truthfully reported, there can be no claim of libel, and he's not licensing the TV, he'd OWN it at that point. He's free to drag it into the deserts and run over it with a steamroller, but for some reason he can't point a meter at the TV and report what the meter says, just because Panasonic would rather he didn't? This isn't an early release covered by an NDA, this is a retail purchase we're talking about.
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post #532 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 07:23 PM
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Lumping sets in a size catagory of 66-89 is way out of wack. There are quite a few sets between 70" and 75" from several manufactures. At least 5 on sale from under $2.000. In my mind 70" is the very low rung of big. But it's a very big rung compared to the next larger size. Next step up would be 75" from Samsung then 80" from Sharp, Vizio. All in 1080 of course.
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post #533 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSonntag View Post
Speaking of the forum: It seems like we should have a dedicated UHDTV/4k section, no?
Why not just rename this forum to OLED & drop the General part.
It's a different technology, just like Plasma is.

UHD is just another LCD of a higher resolution. Right?

.

.
.
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post #534 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalani View Post
I have to disagree that 65" is a "medium set". Statistically, very few houses have 65" sets, let alone bigger. 55" is probably the largest size with significant numbers. I'd peg 65" squarely as "Large" and anything over 65" as "Extra Large". 90"+ would have to be an extreme category. Medium should really be something that is somewhat reflected as near a majority in actual distribution numbers.

I think the vast majority of people would still consider 55" to be "large". The main question is whether the cutoff to Medium should be at 50" or 46-47", IMO. It's really only the hyper-technical "gotta have the best" AVS crowd that thinks mostly in terms of very large sets.

My personal ratings, which I strongly suspect a majority of non-AVS users would agree with, perhaps +/- 5":

Small: 12-30"
Medium: 31-49"
Large: 50"-65"
Extra-Large: 66"-89"
XXL: 90"+

This, of course, puts nearly all projection systems in at least the XL, if not XXL category.

I would really like to see a shootout of L-XL televisions, with a $10k cap to weed out the insanely expensive systems, and a healthy number of $3-6k sets that are actually attainable by a reasonable majority of enthusiast purchasers. Because, personally, outside of perhaps a small LCD in the kitchen (or back of the carseat), I don't have much interest in owning anything less than a 50" set (I MAY be talked into a 46"-class set for the MBR by my wife, who doesn't want every room dominated by a large TV screen!), and considerably larger than that for the main viewing room. I currently have a 65" Panny plasma which I adore for my main viewing room, but there's really nothing semi-reasonable on the market right now in the over 65" class that would be a good substitute, and that mere mortals like myself can afford. The Sammy F8500 would be too small an upgrade, since there's only a small quality difference, and zero size or resolution difference. The OLED sets just aren't available in reasonable numbers yet (esp in the over 65" category), and I still have longevity concerns about these early generations. And 4K LCD tech sets clearly have some distance to go before the catch up with Plasma, let alone OLED, contrast and black levels.

Based on reading this thread, I know I'm not alone in this wish.
48" is becoming quite common in the UK but the majority is usually 42" to 46".
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post #535 of 538 Old 08-22-2014, 09:09 PM
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48" is becoming quite common in the UK but the majority is usually 42" to 46".
As usual, everything HAS to be bigger in the States

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post #536 of 538 Old 08-23-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post
Why not just rename this forum to OLED & drop the General part.
It's a different technology, just like Plasma is.

UHD is just another LCD of a higher resolution. Right?

.
You might have noticed it is General and ...Sooner or later OLED will move...and we have our tiny Forum back
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post #537 of 538 Old 08-23-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
I got yelled down when I suggested that last year. I would combine the Front Projector +/- $3000 threads and put Screens as a sub thread inside them. I also would move the Calibration and Screen Height threads. I would add a dedicated OLED section and 4K/UHD LCD threads and move the Rear projection and CRT to the bottom.
You'd be good working for AVS Video division.
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post #538 of 538 Old 08-23-2014, 08:57 AM
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I don't think there should be a separate forum for 4k/UHD. This OLED forum is great. Why wade through dozens of posts about 4k LCDs and projectors just to read the OLED posts?

The technology is more important than the resolution.
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