Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DeadEd View Post
I'm not sure but I don't think they are making any 65 foot OLED screens yet. 4K or otherwise.

Yeah, it'll be a while before we see one of those in the shootout (requires roll-to-roll manufacturing :-)
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post #32 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 03:23 PM
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The LG and the Sammy both distort the picture. While I have attended most of the shootouts over the years, I will be overseas for this one and will miss it. Too much of a time differential to watch it live on the web as well. I would have to say that this is probably the one to miss if I have to miss one given the lack of the 4K LG OLEDs. I would not be surprised to see Robert hold a mini shootout later in the year when the 4K OLEDs are out, pitting this years' winner against the 65 and 77 inch OLEDs from LG. I see no issue with the inclusion of the Sammy OLED given that the Sammy plasma is there as well as both are on their way out and not being replaced. Maybe he can do an old timers event with a few of the recent past winners duking it out.
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post #33 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
I'm definitely interested to see how the OLED perform. I'm very glad the f8500 will be there as a measuring stick as well.


the one thing I thought was interesting is that there's basically no 1080p lcd's this year. has UHD really become that dominant?


will there be crossover comparisons? I mean, ultimately I'm curious in what the best tv is, and if a 1080p oled happens to have better image quality than a UHD lcd, then so be it. I'd like to know that though.

Hence why the Vizio M652i-B2 1080p LED-FALD LCD will hopefully be included...
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post #34 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
The LG and the Sammy both distort the picture. While I have attended most of the shootouts over the years, I will be overseas for this one and will miss it. Too much of a time differential to watch it live on the web as well. I would have to say that this is probably the one to miss if I have to miss one given the lack of the 4K LG OLEDs. I would not be surprised to see Robert hold a mini shootout later in the year when the 4K OLEDs are out, pitting this years' winner against the 65 and 77 inch OLEDs from LG. I see no issue with the inclusion of the Sammy OLED given that the Sammy plasma is there as well as both are on their way out and not being replaced. Maybe he can do an old timers event with a few of the recent past winners duking it out.
Well Sound and Vision Magazine wasn't bothered by the curve in the LG OLED http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...0-3d-oled-hdtv
"AT A GLANCE
Plus
Astonishing blacks
Crisp, clean detail
Exceptionally bright 3D
Minus
Poor dark-gray uniformity
Expensive for a 1080p set
THE VERDICT
It costs a bundle, has a relatively small screen, and isn’t perfect. But buyers will be rewarded with a picture that, in the ways most important to enthusiasts, is unequaled by any other type of consumer display"


While Cnet's preview of the Samsung OLED said:
"For a videophile with money to burn who doesn't mind a relatively small 55-inch size, the curved screen is a major fly in the ointment. It was definitely noticeable from the sweet spot at my seating distance of about 7 feet. The corners seemed wider than the middle, creating a subtle trapezoid effect that I found distracting compared to the flatter shape of the traditional screen. The horizontal edges bowed wider toward the edges too, creating a subtle "U" along the top edge and an inverted one along the bottom.
Another strange effect was that the roundness of the curve changed as I sat higher or lower relative to the screen. From my standard seating position, in an office chair watching the TV set atop a 2.5-foot stand, the bottom of the screen bent more noticeably than the top. From off-angle the distortions became even less equal.
The TV also angles back on its stand by default. Samsung's rep told me part of the reason was to comply with standards designed to prevent it from falling over. The visual effect, however, is of even more distortion; from my seat the vertical edges of the screen narrow toward the top. Combined with any distortions in the film -- "I Am Legend" uses a lot of fish-eye lens shots, for example -- the total started to seem Escheresque."
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post #35 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 03:38 PM
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This shootout will have almost no benefit to the consumer, except the handful of rich guys looking for a supersized screen. Not what you would expect from a place called "Value Electronics."

They should have included 4K sets in the 65" range, since that is what most customers will be buying. And we all know the extreme sizes are generally not indicative of other sizes and use different panels and even internal processing that would negate a consumer from using these results to judge other sizes in the line. I guess they can say there haven't been faceoffs of the largest sizes yet, but what use is it really?

Is it possible they are getting to keep those screens, so that is why they wanted these sizes? Just a chance to go on a shopping spree?
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post #36 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Desk.
Without the inclusion of a 4K OLED, this is a largely pointless exercise.

Desk
No its not. Lets see what folks at the Shootout have to say about OLED stuff.
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post #37 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1375254254#10 "Samsung F8500 has very limited vertical viewing angles; not only from the top but also from the bottom" The OLED will win in Viewing Angles.
Who cares about steep vertical viewing angles? Horizontal viewing angles are more the ones that matter. The LG OLED, at least the 2013 55" 1080p model, has a color shift over angle. The F8500 doesn't. That's why I put the F8500 ahead of it.
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post #38 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:29 PM
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I bet the winner comes from these 2...regardless of Vizio's entry or not. And I'll go out on a limb and say Samsung 1 and Sony 2.


Samsung UN85S9 16:9 or UN105S9W 21:9 LED-FALD LCD

Sony XBR-85X950B LED-FALD LCD
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post #39 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:37 PM
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Lets see if Sony can win this one.......................heard great things about Vizio hope they enter.
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post #40 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post
Well Sound and Vision Magazine wasn't bothered by the curve in the LG OLED http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...0-3d-oled-hdtv
"AT A GLANCE
Plus
Astonishing blacks
Crisp, clean detail
Exceptionally bright 3D
Minus
Poor dark-gray uniformity
Expensive for a 1080p set
THE VERDICT
It costs a bundle, has a relatively small screen, and isn’t perfect. But buyers will be rewarded with a picture that, in the ways most important to enthusiasts, is unequaled by any other type of consumer display"


While Cnet's preview of the Samsung OLED said:
"For a videophile with money to burn who doesn't mind a relatively small 55-inch size, the curved screen is a major fly in the ointment. It was definitely noticeable from the sweet spot at my seating distance of about 7 feet. The corners seemed wider than the middle, creating a subtle trapezoid effect that I found distracting compared to the flatter shape of the traditional screen. The horizontal edges bowed wider toward the edges too, creating a subtle "U" along the top edge and an inverted one along the bottom.
Another strange effect was that the roundness of the curve changed as I sat higher or lower relative to the screen. From my standard seating position, in an office chair watching the TV set atop a 2.5-foot stand, the bottom of the screen bent more noticeably than the top. From off-angle the distortions became even less equal.
The TV also angles back on its stand by default. Samsung's rep told me part of the reason was to comply with standards designed to prevent it from falling over. The visual effect, however, is of even more distortion; from my seat the vertical edges of the screen narrow toward the top. Combined with any distortions in the film -- "I Am Legend" uses a lot of fish-eye lens shots, for example -- the total started to seem Escheresque."

I have seen both and they BOTH distort the image. Doesn't really matter to me that the LG is not quite as bad. Any curve means no sale for me.
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post #41 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:49 PM
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I agree that this year's shootout is aimed a bit too much at the top 1% or in some cases, the top .1 %.
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post #42 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
I agree that this year's shootout is aimed a bit too much at the top 1% or in some cases, the top .1 %.

Which translates into 200,000 TVs sold annually - probably the right read... (excepting the Vizio)
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post #43 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 05:03 PM
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Let's hope the Vizio is included...only one confirmed non Samsung/LG TV? Jeez...

Would have liked to see an X900B included in the shootout, as it's a more direct competitor to the HU9000. Bummer about the Panasonic, considering the relatively favorable press it's been getting.

Unless VE has a lock on the remaining Samsung OLED supply. it would certainly seem that it's been discontinued since no dealers seem to sell it anymore.

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post #44 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
64" F8500, though I don't see how that's relevant to my near total lack of interest in a shootout between those models. Every confirmed entrant except one is from one of two Korean CE makers. There's not a lot of variety in the entrants or any interesting panels from other players. If the Vizio is included that's about the most interesting twist on the whole thing. Ultimately, it's not hard to predict the outcome with reasonable certainty.

  • The F8500 will ace the motion portion
  • The F8500 followed by the OLED will take viewing angle
  • Plasma will lose the daytime viewing portion
  • OLED will have the best dark room viewing
  • The F8500 and the FALD sets will swap blows behind the OLED for dark room viewing with the FALD LCDs likely offering slightly darker blacks, but at the cost of blooming
  • The edge lit LCD panels will struggle at pretty much everything but daytime viewing
  • There won't be any significant differences between any of them in Rec.709 color
  • The UHD sets will offer additional resolution on UHD content provided the content is not fast moving and the viewing distance is close enough
  • The UHD sets will not offer any noteworthy benefit on HD content
I have the F8500 as well...but you make a lot of assumptions in what you say

first off....you use the word "slightly" and "significant" several times
These will turn out to be subjective differences in the eyes of those that see the TVs

Similar to people here on AVS forum going back and forth on black level numbers that they call significant...but to the human eye by definition will be slight

There have been a few FALD sets that dont have issues with blooming...for example the Sharp Elite

Some say the UHD set's upscaling capabilities make 1080P look better

The Vizio...if available...is a wild card
if it does what they say it will do ...at what the street price will likely be...they have a big winner on their hands

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post #45 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by scottman View Post
This shootout will have almost no benefit to the consumer, except the handful of rich guys looking for a supersized screen. Not what you would expect from a place called "Value Electronics."

They should have included 4K sets in the 65" range, since that is what most customers will be buying.
The have tested $6-7K Pioneer Kuro's and Sharp Elite LED's in years past

I dont think they are trying to find the panel that "most consumers will be buying"

Quite the opposite actually...Many of the winning displays were on their last legs at the time of the testing
The displays were great...they just clearly were not a profitable platform for the company that made them

4K sets in the 65" range speak to edge lit LED
A bad genre for many that are video purists


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post #46 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 06:00 PM
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id like them to include the VT/ZT series panny and the F8500 simply to see how they are holding up
The VT/ZT didn't win last year's Shootout. That's the rules

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post #47 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 06:28 PM
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Who cares about steep vertical viewing angles? Horizontal viewing angles are more the ones that matter. The LG OLED, at least the 2013 55" 1080p model, has a color shift over angle. The F8500 doesn't. That's why I put the F8500 ahead of it.
A lot of people might care about it. Tvs with bad vertical viewing angles, you have to sit perfectly centered to the tv, to avoid it turning too dark. :
Samsung 51" F8500 power and view angle "I just got today the Samsung 51" f8500 plasma. View angel is way worse. I stand up and in from of TV a couple feet and the whole picture is near black. Extremely dark. On the side it is much darker on the bottom. From the other side of the room in center it's normal. What's going on here?".

Also, have you experienced this?: "A strange image retention artifact did occur on the F8500 that I've never seen before. When I paused the image or the shot lingered for long enough on a dark stationary element, purplish noise would begin to gradually accumulate in shadowy areas" http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-pn60f8500/2/
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post #48 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 06:42 PM
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There have been a few FALD sets that dont have issues with blooming...for example the Sharp Elite

Some say the UHD set's upscaling capabilities make 1080P look better
We'll see. The 65" Sony X950 doesn't have nearly the same number of zones as the Elites. We don't know if the 85" has more or not. I've never seen any zone counts for a S9.

On the UHD upscaling, good luck! It's theoretically possible, but it seems rather unlikely that scaling of that quality is getting put in these sets. They won't spend money fixing glaring problems like poor quality edge lighting or vertical banding, but they're going to spend it on high end scaling very few will notice? I don't buy it. Also, don't forget that there was a UHD set in the 2013 shootout. It wasn't even in contention.
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post #49 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:19 PM
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Hence why the Vizio M652i-B2 1080p LED-FALD LCD will hopefully be included...
yeah, I just kind of like them having an edgelit led in the mix, so that we can always point to the results and say "SEE, this is why my 'dead technology' plasma is still better than crappy edgelit led's..."


the fact they don't even have one in the contest might speak more to those that know, but it's still nice having that head to head to prove the point. I don't have nearly as much of an issue with FALD led's, so even if the vizio is included, I don't expect it to be an accurate representation of the LED market. but, I do hope it's included, because with plasma dieing, FALD is likely going to be a necessary thing until oled matures a bit more. I can't really justify spending 4grand or more for an oled to put in my bedroom to watch southpark reruns while I fall asleep... haha.

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post #50 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:21 PM
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We'll see. The 65" Sony X950 doesn't have nearly the same number of zones as the Elites. We don't know if the 85" has more or not. I've never seen any zone counts for a S9.

On the UHD upscaling, good luck! It's theoretically possible, but it seems rather unlikely that scaling of that quality is getting put in these sets. They won't spend money fixing glaring problems like poor quality edge lighting or vertical banding, but they're going to spend it on high end scaling very few will notice? I don't buy it. Also, don't forget that there was a UHD set in the 2013 shootout. It wasn't even in contention.
the Vizio zone count would seem "off" as well

But...clearly Vizio has seemed to latch onto some technology to create a better picture with less zones

On the scaling investment idea

Sure the companies would spend more...if the public doesn't know( or care) about the bad viewing angles or uniformity that can be inherent of edge lit LED and clearly put more emphasis on bright sharp picture

what would you, as a corporate decision maker, who is responsible for corporate profits and is also compensated on them, invest in?

I am not sure why people on AVS dont seem to "get" that its all about the $$

All this belly aching about Panasonic (and Pioneer years before) and plasma dying..yada..yada..yada

All one would have to do is keep up with their past 3-4 years financials and the news is crystal clear..LOL

Panasonic hung on at least a year..perhaps 2 longer than I thought they would...and Sony needs some winners as well

Its all about the $$

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post #51 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:24 PM
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yeah, I just kind of like them having an edgelit led in the mix, so that we can always point to the results and say "SEE, this is why my 'dead technology' plasma is still better than crappy edgelit led's..."


the fact they don't even have one in the contest might speak more to those that know, but it's still nice having that head to head to prove the point. I don't have nearly as much of an issue with FALD led's, so even if the vizio is included, I don't expect it to be an accurate representation of the LED market. but, I do hope it's included, because with plasma dieing, FALD is likely going to be a necessary thing until oled matures a bit more. I can't really justify spending 4grand or more for an oled to put in my bedroom to watch southpark reruns while I fall asleep... haha.
Vizio has an e series FALD...also you can still get a lower end LG plasma..or even perhaps a smaller F8500

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post #52 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post
Well Sound and Vision Magazine wasn't bothered by the curve in the LG OLED http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...0-3d-oled-hdtv
"AT A GLANCE
Plus
Astonishing blacks
Crisp, clean detail
Exceptionally bright 3D
Minus
Poor dark-gray uniformity
Expensive for a 1080p set
THE VERDICT
It costs a bundle, has a relatively small screen, and isn’t perfect. But buyers will be rewarded with a picture that, in the ways most important to enthusiasts, is unequaled by any other type of consumer display"


While Cnet's preview of the Samsung OLED said:
"For a videophile with money to burn who doesn't mind a relatively small 55-inch size, the curved screen is a major fly in the ointment. It was definitely noticeable from the sweet spot at my seating distance of about 7 feet. The corners seemed wider than the middle, creating a subtle trapezoid effect that I found distracting compared to the flatter shape of the traditional screen. The horizontal edges bowed wider toward the edges too, creating a subtle "U" along the top edge and an inverted one along the bottom.
Another strange effect was that the roundness of the curve changed as I sat higher or lower relative to the screen. From my standard seating position, in an office chair watching the TV set atop a 2.5-foot stand, the bottom of the screen bent more noticeably than the top. From off-angle the distortions became even less equal.
The TV also angles back on its stand by default. Samsung's rep told me part of the reason was to comply with standards designed to prevent it from falling over. The visual effect, however, is of even more distortion; from my seat the vertical edges of the screen narrow toward the top. Combined with any distortions in the film -- "I Am Legend" uses a lot of fish-eye lens shots, for example -- the total started to seem Escheresque."
does it really matter what cnet or sound and vision think? if YOU are bothered by the distortion, that's what counts.


I could potentially see a curved screen working if the material were designed for it. but it's not, and it gives me the impression of viewing through a fisheye lens(although subtle, it's noticeable). I kind of see it like the frame interpolation stuff. it's absolutely different, but not necessarily an improvement. some will love it, some will hate it, some will get used to it and not really care. to me it just feels like change for the sake of change. they seem to be addressing a problem that doesn't exist to distract us from the many problems they seem to be ignoring.

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post #53 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
yeah, I just kind of like them having an edgelit led in the mix, so that we can always point to the results and say "SEE, this is why my 'dead technology' plasma is still better than crappy edgelit led's..."


the fact they don't even have one in the contest might speak more to those that know, but it's still nice having that head to head to prove the point. I don't have nearly as much of an issue with FALD led's, so even if the vizio is included, I don't expect it to be an accurate representation of the LED market. but, I do hope it's included, because with plasma dieing, FALD is likely going to be a necessary thing until oled matures a bit more. I can't really justify spending 4grand or more for an oled to put in my bedroom to watch southpark reruns while I fall asleep... haha.

There are several edge-lit LED/LCD TVs in the Shootout - they are all just 4K (no 1080p).


It will be interesting to see how the Sony X950B (and hopefully also the Vizio M) compare against them.
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post #54 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
Vizio has an e series FALD...also you can still get a lower end LG plasma..or even perhaps a smaller F8500

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I'm not expecting to be in the market anytime soon, just like to stay up to date 'just in case'. my comment on the spending 4k was more towards oled. I hope my next tv purchase is oled, but if for some reason I need to buy a non-reference tv, and lg has followed suit and there's no plasmas around, I literally find edgelit led's unwatchable. I returned two of them and brought home CCFL versions the last time I tried, so the FALD models are of interest to me. it's nice to know they are becoming more popular again, and I hope they achieve good uniformity with them, in case I find myself in need of a tv unexpectedly

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post #55 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShaw View Post
The VT/ZT didn't win last year's Shootout. That's the rules
I don't think it should have the f8500 looks better to me, of course OLED kicks the butt of everything because for me black levels and contrast rules!

I like my TV like my women, nice and curved



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post #56 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
There are several edge-lit LED/LCD TVs in the Shootout - they are all just 4K (no 1080p).


It will be interesting to see how the Sony X950B (and hopefully also the Vizio M) compare against them.
that was the second part of my first post. I'm not sure if they are going to do direct head to head comparisons across the board, or keep them in UHD and HD classes, and then only discuss how the winners compare. I would definitely prefer they just have ALL TV's in one group. after all, I'd never turn down a tv just because it was UHD. I simply want to know what tv is best.

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post #57 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post
A lot of people might care about it. Tvs with bad vertical viewing angles, you have to sit perfectly centered to the tv, to avoid it turning too dark. :
Samsung 51" F8500 power and view angle "I just got today the Samsung 51" f8500 plasma. View angel is way worse. I stand up and in from of TV a couple feet and the whole picture is near black. Extremely dark. On the side it is much darker on the bottom. From the other side of the room in center it's normal. What's going on here?".

Also, have you experienced this?: "A strange image retention artifact did occur on the F8500 that I've never seen before. When I paused the image or the shot lingered for long enough on a dark stationary element, purplish noise would begin to gradually accumulate in shadowy areas" http://www.cnet.com/products/samsung-pn60f8500/2/
it's an issue worth mentioning, but not dwelling on. it probably affects fewer people than the unusual stand design that makes finding a wide enough stand difficult.


you need to be significantly off axis to notice the dimming(but when you do it's very noticeable, reminds me on the old CRT RPTV's). if you're more than 6ft away, you need to lie on the ground or stand on a chair for it to be an issue. from 10ft away, i'm guessing it MIGHT be an issue if the tv is mounted very high and you lie on the floor, or if you're trying to watch it from a 2nd floor loft/balcony or something. in my room, I can't get high enough or low enough to notice any dimming from my viewing distance.


on the other hand, the way the set holds black when I turn the overhead pot lights on is WELL worth this limitation to me. and I don't even like watching tv with the lights on, haha.

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post #58 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
does it really matter what cnet or sound and vision think? if YOU are bothered by the distortion, that's what counts.
It's always interesting to know what professional reviewers think about a determined tv. I agree about the subjectivity of the curve's effect.
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
does it really matter what cnet or sound and vision think? if YOU are bothered by the distortion, that's what counts.
It's always interesting to know what professional reviewers think about a determined tv. I agree about the subjectivity of the curve's effect.

Thanks for the informative post about the Samsung plasma.

Sorry for the double post.
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post #60 of 538 Old 07-31-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post
It's always interesting to know what professional reviewers think about a determined tv. I agree about the subjectivity of the curve's effect.
Every single review has praised OLED up & down, the only negative people are the LCD & Plasma owners on this forum. I would put my money with the non-bias reviews.
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