Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 06:39 AM 08-01-2014
could you guys explain what you mean by blooming. In phosphor sets such as CRTs and plasmas, blooming occurs when the phosphor is over drivien. I do know is the OLED elements can bloom or not. But I don't understand the use of the word blooming with LCDs. The LCDs are just values that open and close to various extents. There is nothing that can be driven.

conan48's Avatar conan48 06:47 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
could you guys explain what you mean by blooming. In phosphor sets such as CRTs and plasmas, blooming occurs when the phosphor is over drivien. I do know is the OLED elements can bloom or not. But I don't understand the use of the word blooming with LCDs. The LCDs are just values that open and close to various extents. There is nothing that can be driven.
It's the LED's in a FALD (full array local dimming) LCD that can cause blooming. Ex, white mouse cursor over a black background. The LED zones that aren't being used go completely black but at least one zone has to turn on to illuminate where the cursor is, and you will see blooming around the white mouse cursor because the zones are too big to avoid this, and the only way to truly avoid this is self illuminating pixels. You can actually count the number of zones on a FALD LCD buy just moving the mouse cursor across the screen and counting the zones as they light up.

FALD LCDs try to use things like software dynamic gamma changes to mask this, but it's still visible when looking for it.

LCDs need an LED per pixel to not have any blooming, and the cost of that would be approx. 60 000
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich 07:24 AM 08-01-2014
Thanks for the explanation.

HOWEVER, you knew there would be a however from me , does the industry use the term blooming to describe the artifact of not one led per pixel or crystal? It would seem to me to use the term bled or bleeding rather than bloom or blooming for this artifact. Light bleeds.
RandyWalters's Avatar RandyWalters 08:05 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post
Without the inclusion of a 4K OLED, this is a largely pointless exercise. Desk
So which currently available 4K OLED would you like Robert to include in the shootout? Please provide brand and model number and MSRP

This particular shootout is not pointless at all - many of us who own Plasma TVs are very interested in what our options will be if we want to upgrade to a larger screen size, or heaven forbid our beloved and no-longer-available Plasma TV suddenly dies and our only replacement options are limited to LCD TVs with inferior picture quality but at double or triple the price of our Plasma, or little curved OLED TVs that cost double or triple what we paid for our Plasma.

Maybe i'm being overly dramatic but i hope my $1200 55ST60 lasts a long time as i don't think there is a single TV on the market that i'd consider a suitable replacement, even at much a higher price.


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HockeyoAJB's Avatar HockeyoAJB 08:53 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post
I bet the winner comes from these 2...regardless of Vizio's entry or not. And I'll go out on a limb and say Samsung 1 and Sony 2.


Samsung UN85S9 16:9 or UN105S9W 21:9 LED-FALD LCD

Sony XBR-85X950B LED-FALD LCD
Samsung had better hope they win this, considering the Sony's MSRP is "only" $25k and the Samsungs' are $40k and $120k, respectively.
mirak's Avatar mirak 09:07 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
it's an issue worth mentioning, but not dwelling on. it probably affects fewer people than the unusual stand design that makes finding a wide enough stand difficult.


you need to be significantly off axis to notice the dimming(but when you do it's very noticeable, reminds me on the old CRT RPTV's). if you're more than 6ft away, you need to lie on the ground or stand on a chair for it to be an issue. from 10ft away, i'm guessing it MIGHT be an issue if the tv is mounted very high and you lie on the floor, or if you're trying to watch it from a 2nd floor loft/balcony or something. in my room, I can't get high enough or low enough to notice any dimming from my viewing distance.


on the other hand, the way the set holds black when I turn the overhead pot lights on is WELL worth this limitation to me. and I don't even like watching tv with the lights on, haha.
Right - the "poor vertical viewing angle" is by design to reduce glare from overhead lights, and as long as you mount the TV properly it's not an issue at all. I don't spend much time watching TV at a 45 degree vertical angle from above (on a ladder?) or below (on the floor) the screen. By contrast, I can and often do watch the TV just fine at 45 degrees horizontal from the kitchen and it looks great.
tubby497's Avatar tubby497 09:08 AM 08-01-2014
I was hoping for are more participants, Panasonic, Toshiba, Vizio (Reference) and bigger OLED's but I still think it will be a great shootout this year.

Judges votes = OLED

Audience votes = 4K FALD, between Samsung's S9 and Sony's 950 because they hate the curve of OLED.
wxman's Avatar wxman 09:41 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I still want to see these motion tests it doesn't pass. The Cinema Smooth feature works (save the occasional hiccup) when you feed the TV 1080p24 (24/1.0010).
Spears and Munsil 2nd edition, has motion tests. The judder is pretty obvious with the 24p and 30p clips.
wxman's Avatar wxman 09:48 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
How did the F8500 win last year if "you don't win when you fail?"

The primary hurdle for OLED at the shootout is this: "Given the incredibly fast response times of OLED, we had expected motion to have a more plasma-like appearance but in actual fact it was very LCD-like, delivering about 300 lines of resolution" - AVForums.com

Since OLED performs spectacularly in just about every other category, it'll be interesting to see how much of an issue the motion resolution is.
Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not have 2 surveys? One which the pros voted, and the other for the audience? The audience voted the F8500 the best, while I believe the pros voted the VT the best.
imagic's Avatar imagic 09:54 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not have 2 surveys? One which the pros voted, and the other for the audience? The audience voted the F8500 the best, while I believe the pros voted the VT the best.
Indeed, but the pros don't choose the winner... the audience does.
tjcinnamon's Avatar tjcinnamon 10:51 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

UHD/4K Models

LG 79UB9800 or 84UB9800 LED-edgelit LCD

Samsung UN78HU9000 LED-edgelit LCD

Samsung UN85S9 16:9 or UN105S9W 21:9 LED-FALD LCD

Sony XBR-85X950B LED-FALD LCD

1080p Models:

LG 55EC9300 OLED

Samsung PN64F8500 plasma

Samsung KN55S9C OLED

Possible:

Vizio M652i-B2 1080p LED-FALD LCD
This just embodies the situation of the 2014 TV. No TV standard (plasma, LED, OLED), no color gamut standard, no HDMI 2.0 standard, not even a 4k standard.

A sub-standard year for TV's if you ask me. I've been salivating for a new TV but do not trust the industry yet.

Signed,
Impatiently Waiting for 2015
Rf13's Avatar Rf13 11:11 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
This just embodies the situation of the 2014 TV. No TV standard (plasma, LED, OLED), no color gamut standard, no HDMI 2.0 standard, not even a 4k standard.

A sub-standard year for TV's if you ask me. I've been salivating for a new TV but do not trust the industry yet.

Signed,
Impatiently Waiting for 2015
I thought the ultra hd standard was finalized by cea
Macroblocker's Avatar Macroblocker 11:18 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5x10 View Post
no 65' 4k oled yet they include a discontinued samsung oled???
Samsung isn't stopping production on the F8500 till November and its a testimony to its impressive performance
Speakerphile's Avatar Speakerphile 11:24 AM 08-01-2014
Curious as to why the AX800 is being left out. Panasonic not "choosing" to participate doesn't really seem like much of an excuse. Since when has a manufacturers preference been enough to exclude a model from what is supposed to be at least a somewhat subjective comparison. I have to wonder if it has anything to do with Robert not selling them...
Ph8te's Avatar Ph8te 11:24 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macroblocker View Post
Samsung isn't stopping production on the F8500 till November and its a testimony to its impressive performance

A slight correction. They said "by November" it could very well end before then as we have started to see stock dwindle with retailers reporting no new stock available.
Speakerphile's Avatar Speakerphile 11:26 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
A slight correction. They said "by November" it could very well end before then as we have started to see stock dwindle with retailers reporting no new stock available.
If retailers are reporting this it is because they are choosing not to order any more.
imagic's Avatar imagic 11:35 AM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post
Curious as to why the AX800 is being left out. Panasonic not "choosing" to participate doesn't really seem like much of an excuse. Since when has a manufacturers preference been enough to exclude a model from what is supposed to be at least a somewhat subjective comparison. I have to wonder if it has anything to do with Robert not selling them...
Robert said he'd have to purchase one with his own money since he would not have them in his warehouse thanks to Panasonic's exclusive with Best Buy. However, there is another potential reason the AX800U is not there—the UHDTVs in the competition are all 78 inches and larger. The AX800U does not yet have an offering in that size.
mirak's Avatar mirak 12:05 PM 08-01-2014
I'll be really interested to see how the OLEDs stack up. If I could have purchased a 65" OLED in the $2500 range this year, I would have, but I "settled" for the f8500. Now that plasma is phasing out, I wonder what the best affordable PQ will be when I upgrade in another 5 years?
hidefpaul's Avatar hidefpaul 12:08 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
This just embodies the situation of the 2014 TV. No TV standard (plasma, LED, OLED), no color gamut standard, no HDMI 2.0 standard, not even a 4k standard.

A sub-standard year for TV's if you ask me. I've been salivating for a new TV but do not trust the industry yet.

Signed,
Impatiently Waiting for 2015
Completely agree with you......I too am anxious to buy a new set and will NOT DO SO until the dust settles on all the features and specs.

Paul
Macroblocker's Avatar Macroblocker 12:11 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post
If retailers are reporting this it is because they are choosing not to order any more.
this actually true as thats what my local store told me
Rf13's Avatar Rf13 12:24 PM 08-01-2014
i don't know if any one has seen this but this is a list of standards CEA posted in order for a set to be consider ultra hd.

http://www.ce.org/News/News-Releases...h-Definit.aspx
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 01:09 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
I as many prefer the F8500, this does not make anyone right or wrong, just a personal preference. I believe the f8500 is the closet image to an OLED. I find the ZT too dark and not nearly as sharp as the f8500, just my preference.
Tom Norton, my favorite video reviewer, gave a glowing review to the Sammy 55" 8550 (5 of 5 stars). He compared it very favorably to the ZT60.
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 01:14 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
As much as I like the F8500, which I own, it will not win, nor should it. It fails every 24p and 30p motion test. You don't win when you fail. Of course, every plasma fails that test. If you can't be the best at blacks, you cant be the best at contrast, which means you cant be the best overall.
Didn't stop the 'failure' of the F8500 to win 'best' in the shootout last year.
wandering_star 01:14 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Indeed, but the pros don't choose the winner... the audience does.
If anything, it should have been a draw.
wandering_star 01:17 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macroblocker View Post
Samsung isn't stopping production on the F8500 till November and its a testimony to its impressive performance
5 x 10's post had no relation to the F8500. He was strictly referring to the Samsung KN55S9C, the 55" curved OLED panel introduced last year but which has been available in rare quantities for all of 2014.
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 01:19 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcoupe2003 View Post
LOL IT WOULD NOT WIN!!!! Last year it lost to a panel of consumers in popular vote to the F8500 and this year the competition is much steeper and normally it seems like the panel with the best contrast and reference colors wins and if that is the case this should be an easy victory for OLED.
C'mon, you make these 'consumers' sound like a bunch of Joe Six Packs. Those at the shootout were far from typical consumers. These were people who knew video.
wandering_star 01:23 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post
I have yet to see a OLED in person, but i'm hearing it doesn't have the organic look of a plasma. It has more of that LCD look. Anybody else find this to be true? I don't like the too sharp and artitfical picture that LCD's have. If OLED is even remotely close to an LCD image I don't think I would want to buy one.
I'm not seeing it at least in 24 fps content in the 2013 model. The undefined contrast ratio has a much more significant impact than the negative effect of reduced motion resolution. 2014 should be even better.
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 01:25 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post
The pros picked the ZT60. It was the audience that chose the 8500 because of brightness. Which I find absolutely hilarious.
A bit of an oversimplification. It won because its black levels were so close to the ZT60, it's brightness was much greater AND it's ABL was far less aggressive than the ZT60 making bright material more believable. Nothing to fall over in the aisles laughing about.

But we argued these points over a few hundred pages about a year ago.
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar Scott Wilkinson 01:33 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Thanks for the explanation.

HOWEVER, you knew there would be a however from me , does the industry use the term blooming to describe the artifact of not one led per pixel or crystal? It would seem to me to use the term bled or bleeding rather than bloom or blooming for this artifact. Light bleeds.
I've heard this effect mostly called "haloing," which is the term I use for it as well.
prepress's Avatar prepress 02:39 PM 08-01-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post
So which currently available 4K OLED would you like Robert to include in the shootout? Please provide brand and model number and MSRP

This particular shootout is not pointless at all - many of us who own Plasma TVs are very interested in what our options will be if we want to upgrade to a larger screen size, or heaven forbid our beloved and no-longer-available Plasma TV suddenly dies and our only replacement options are limited to LCD TVs with inferior picture quality but at double or triple the price of our Plasma, or little curved OLED TVs that cost double or triple what we paid for our Plasma.

Maybe i'm being overly dramatic but i hope my $1200 55ST60 lasts a long time as i don't think there is a single TV on the market that i'd consider a suitable replacement, even at much a higher price.


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I've had the same thoughts regarding my PRO-111FD. OLED would be next up, I suppose, but if I take care of my Pioneer, maybe replacing it will be a while yet. Maybe the curved sets will go away in the meantime.
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