Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 04:57 PM
 
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I take it you mean Patrik over at AVF? I've been following his saga with a keen interest as well, and he actually prefers the look of the OLED now (after weeks of tweaking) since becoming accustomed to the KRP-500M for 6 months. From what I have personally seen and read, I don't believe there is any undefeatable edge enhancement or sharpness being employed on the OLEDs. You won't get the thin veneer of dithering either, however.
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post #212 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 05:44 PM
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1) Forgive me for missing which OLED LG was bringing. I'm almost equally bored than it's still a 2K model, but at least it is current.

2) Ken is right that volume isn't critical, but the shootout has never had such an inaccessible, low-volume list of participating displays. The winner and/or runner-up has been a ~$3000 plasma every year, when that TV is purchased in a 65" size. (The year the Sharp Elite was one of those two, it was a $6000 display.)

This year, between the giant sizes and the expensive displays, it's hard to imagine most videophiles even considering most of the displays available. And 2K OLEDs (esp. in 55-inch size) are not even an aspirational product for many of us. I could buy one tomorrow and simply don't have any interest.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #213 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 06:40 PM
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I wish the non-subjective aspects of 3D performance (ghosting, brightness, etc.) of the sets that support it (I'm NOT looking at you Vizio...) would also be compared. I fail to comprehend how so many fail to grasp that the same tech that enables high quality 3D enables higher quality in other aspects of the image as well (e.g. motion handling).
And before anyone reaches for their "3D is dead"/"No one cares about 3D anymore"/"I wish 3D would just die already" keyboard-shortcuts, just... don't. Please and thank you.
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post #214 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 07:31 PM
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As I posted before, I think people have the wrong idea as to the purpose of this shootout.

It is not to find the best TV that the majority here can afford. The purpose is to find the best performing TV, regardless of price or size. Price is not even on the score sheet.

I always look forward to this shootout because it lets me see how the state-of-the-art has advanced from year to year. You're not going to see that if you limit the shootout to certain sizes or price points.

If the manufacturers put their best technology and quality into the largest panels, then I see no problem with Robert choosing them for the event. It's the only way most of us will ever see how such products perform.

I actually love the fact that manufacturers are again willing to produce high-end sets where price is not a factor. The race to the bottom that's been occurring the past few years was depressing.
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post #215 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagenstein View Post
I wish the non-subjective aspects of 3D performance (ghosting, brightness, etc.) of the sets that support it (I'm NOT looking at you Vizio...) would also be compared. I fail to comprehend how so many fail to grasp that the same tech that enables high quality 3D enables higher quality in other aspects of the image as well (e.g. motion handling).
And before anyone reaches for their "3D is dead"/"No one cares about 3D anymore"/"I wish 3D would just die already" keyboard-shortcuts, just... don't. Please and thank you.
I agree about the 3d. If the flagship sets have it and plenty of us buyers like enough to care about it, then it should be compared with the same attention as the other points of interest. I know a lot of professional reviewers and calibraters gloss over 3d like it's an after thought. How about comparing passive vs active and degrees of ghosting and overall PQ?
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post #216 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I agree about the 3d. If the flagship sets have it and plenty of us buyers like enough to care about it, then it should be compared with the same attention as the other points of interest. I know a lot of professional reviewers and calibraters gloss over 3d like it's an after thought. How about comparing passive vs active and degrees of ghosting and overall PQ?
+100

3D is not a gimmick if used properly. Off topic, but did anyone see Guardians of the Galaxy in 3D? Great 3D, and filmed with 3D in mind. Feels like Star Wars for a new generation.
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post #217 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post
A 6 year old display that still stands up to every other out there. Really though, i just think they should be there so we can see how they compare to these "new amazing TV's." Both the Panasonic and Pioneer are reference displays so why not give us a chance to see how far these new TV's get in performance.
I agree, the 500M is very hard to beat! I'm in no hurry to replace mine... Those OLED's might be a little.. bit.. better but it's not going to be a big difference!....

We will have to wait for the 4K OLED's to come out to see more of a difference between the two ...
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post #218 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 08:34 PM
 
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That only applies to the 500M or 101FD mind you (and tweaked at that). You're going to get deeper blacks on the OLED with any other model comparison and yes, a little more in the way of motion blur (you give some, you take some) at least when it comes to LG's 2013 models.
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post #219 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Thanks for the explanation.

HOWEVER, you knew there would be a however from me , does the industry use the term blooming to describe the artifact of not one led per pixel or crystal? It would seem to me to use the term bled or bleeding rather than bloom or blooming for this artifact. Light bleeds.
I've heard a few terms to describe it. Halos was another one. as if there were stars, or the moon in a night sky, it'd look like they were surrounded by halos.


under the 'wrong' conditions, FALD can almost be worse than the old CCFL lcd's.



I tend to prefer a uniform backlight, or rather, I require a reasonably uniform backlight to enjoy viewing. I suspect the above is not actually FALD, but edglit with dimming. and clearly not an example of a well engineered design either, haha

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post #220 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x
Pfft... You should see the pics I took of my Olevia back in 2006!
Olevia web page isn't working right (today) do they make anything or just re label or buy OEM/ODM boxes like many others including usuall name brands sometimes?

I was driving all Sony's back then am now wheeling 2013 60f5300 V.G. Samsung plasma (my real tv) #2 = 2013 Sony 40" R4 LED very good LED pix Best LED in da house ( gets most use am watching now)
#3 2012 Toshiba CCFL w/VG picture almost as good as Sony torch bright if U want 450+ cd/m2
#4.5 is 2013 42" LG LED plenty Decent .. #5 and 6 = 2 Insignia 40" (1)re purposed as additional 1080p PC screen in studio other in garage (these) 40" Insignia are much better 1080p PC screen than TV and actually not bad at all for that both (of those) have decent Samsung SPVA panels .


Quote:
Originally Posted by wandering_star
The ZT60 is a multi-award winning panel as well with more than a few professional reviews rating it as the best plasma of 2013. Since the Pioneer KRP-500M was given an exception and allowed to appear last year, I'd be very interested in a 3-way featuring all 3 of the best-performing panels of 2013. That wouldn't likely help VE sell anything for 2014 so is a little more than an academic exercise, but the ZT is a high-caliber
panel whose performance speaks for itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas oled
I as many prefer the F8500, this does not make anyone right or wrong, just a personal preference. I believe the f8500 is the closet image to an OLED. I find the ZT too dark and not nearly as sharp as the f8500, just my preference.
I have to concur with oledvegas here ☺☺
I looked at ZT 60 and f8500 at BB Magnolia they had ZT60 in darkest part of room (dark)
very good pix in darkness don't know about light (er) I preferred the f8500 brightness and sharper 2 me pix
also rest of pict was exel. I could not find any obvious faults with at all.( my preference of those 2 is f8500) I do not watch in dark all the time or even ½ of time so ZT 60 is no go here as good as it is which is very very good. LG OLED was outta my budget by choice then as was ZT . 55 LG OLED less so now and looking good then a now. Sony 8x 8.5x , 9x ,9.5x also looked very good on more recent visit did not look much at Sammy LED looked decent at a glance.
no f8500 2 B found that day .

3 of the sets here are 2013 so I'm good 4 now ( unless my serial upgrading tendencies re emerge ☺☺)but I will get with our default new set beta tester vegasoled b4 I buy again ☺☺☺☺

Kind of disappointed in the Value electronics shoot out line up nothing main stream and flies in the face of thier company name ,not to mention Samsung OLED is stillborn no point nothing to add there probably wont watch maybe a few on line parts after it's done .
I can't make it anyway my Gulf Stream V will be at MRO facility for req. annual A/P insp /maint /rep.☺☺☺

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post #221 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
C'mon, you make these 'consumers' sound like a bunch of Joe Six Packs. Those at the shootout were far from typical consumers. These were people who knew video.
I agree that sometimes it's nice to hear what ppl like instead of just hearing about how well if follows the rules...


the fact that our current TV's still seem to be trying to mimic CRT instead of real-life leaves a grey area surrounding 'reference' quality to me. I think it was pretty clear that the zt did a better job of meeting video standards, but maybe those standards aren't perfect.


that being said, I certainly wouldn't mind the f8500 having deeper blacks, or better motion. while I'm happy with the tv compared to the options that were on the market, because of those two things there's still a glimmer of crt-lust in the back of my mind. it sounds like oled won't do anything for motion, but I'm pretty hopeful it'll FINALLY fulfill my need to blacks that are actually black.

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post #222 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by anis_ber View Post
For those who want to include OLED, I really don't get it.
It's unfair to compare OLED to LED or Plasma, OLED is far superior
OLED needs to be compared to OLED and since only almost 1 player is on the game, it's pointless
you might care more about what's happening in the back of the tv, but I only care about what's coming out the front. I want to know what the best display is, period. telling me the 'sony' is the best LED, and the 'samsung' is the best plasma, and the 'lg' is the best oled doesn't tell me what I want to know.


the way I see it, if you want to break them into groups after you can, but if they weren't compared head to head in the first place, you can't make any assumptions. I can't assume the oled will be better than the plasma is EVERY aspect unless they are compared in every aspect. it's not like they are doing different things, they are all TV's. it makes more sense to me to group them by price, size, or function(3D, smart features, etc) than by tech.
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post #223 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Uniformity. ...And Motion sickness (focus). ...Stability. ...Lots of room for improvement.
true, but the kuro, zt60, f8500 is a FAR cry from what plasma was its first year. imo, when plasma came out, it was WORSE than crt in nearly every way, and remained that way for years. the fact oled is already better in many of the key aspects of picture quality has me very optimistic. and hopefully we won't have to wait 10+yrs like we did with plasma
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post #224 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post
Limited VERTICAL viewing angle has no bearing on actual tv watching. Plasma still has best viewing angle.
not to mention that's a limitation of the screen filter, and not the panel itself. still, if I had a choice between the f8500 with or without that louvered filter, now that I've seen it, I'd keep it for sure.

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post #225 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anis_ber
For those who want to include OLED, I really don't get it.
It's unfair to compare OLED to LED or Plasma, OLED is far superior
OLED needs to be compared to OLED and since only almost 1 player is on the game, it's pointless

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt
you might care more about what's happening in the back of the tv, but I only care about what's coming out the front. I want to know what the best display is, period. telling me the 'sony' is the best LED, and the 'samsung' is the best plasma, and the 'lg' is the best oled doesn't tell me what I want to know.
I agree with fierce_gt 100% nothing wrong with displaying different panel tech side by side fair and balanced warts and all let the folks decide ...........



Nothing beats an xtra large open window or sliding door or a closed ones with clean glass when they an make large sliding patio door size TV like that then they will have something only prob with that is people might try 2 walk through thinking it's open sliding door ☺☺

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post #226 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
true, but the kuro, zt60, f8500 is a FAR cry from what plasma was its first year. imo, when plasma came out, it was WORSE than crt in nearly every way, and remained that way for years. the fact oled is already better in many of the key aspects of picture quality has me very optimistic. and hopefully we won't have to wait 10+yrs like we did with plasma
I'm all for OLED: 70 to 90" size, no issues, no reliability problems, perfect pitch all around. Give that to me and we'll talk some more. Meanwhile I give them OLED technician engineers some more time to work out everything, perfectly. ...All in due time, and @ prices that don't require hiring a pro hitman in order to get a quicker inheritance.
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post #227 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I have to concur with oledvegas here ☺☺
I looked at ZT 60 and f8500 at BB Magnolia they had ZT60 in darkest part of room (dark)
very good pix in darkness don't know about light (er) I preferred the f8500 brightness and sharper 2 me pix
also rest of pict was exel. I could not find any obvious faults with at all.( my preference of those 2 is f8500) I do not watch in dark all the time or even ½ of time so ZT 60 is no go here as good as it is which is very very good. LG OLED was outta my budget by choice then as was ZT . 55 LG OLED less so now and looking good then a now. Sony 8x 8.5x , 9x ,9.5x also looked very good on more recent visit did not look much at Sammy LED looked decent at a glance.
no f8500 2 B found that day.
That's fine. I've got a ZT set up in a living room scenario...only in the brightest of conditions does it have me wondering what an F8500 might be able to achieve. In low level ambient lighting or darkness (absolutely preferred viewing environments), that thought is soon forgotten. The ZT needs no further defense.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I'm all for OLED: 70 to 90" size, no issues, no reliability problems, perfect pitch all around. Give that to me and we'll talk some more. Meanwhile I give them OLED technician engineers some more time to work out everything, perfectly. ...All in due time, and @ prices that don't require hiring a pro hitman in order to get a quicker inheritance.
Perfection is an illusion.
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post #229 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post
Panasonic is probably not participating because they may have decided to stop making TVs completely.

I would not be surprised to see an announcement from them by the end of year, or sooner, that they have made such a decision.
You might be right about Panny . TV are mostly if not all ? outsourced production now (TVP I believe )
definitely on a thin lifeline IMO (and word is) Pannys long term bus. plan strategy is divestiture + diversification into existing growing business and new business opportunities as they arise e.g,Solar and L. I. battery in Panny's case
except for Solar and L.I. battery it's not far from Sony grand L.T. bus. plan strategy btw

Sony TV is now owned subsidiary eventual next step *could be* sale word is other consumer electronics * may* be shopped around currently or soon . Sony ODD has been or is being sold ,Mexico and SA assets are shuttered or sold .
Word is their new tricks are hospital data base +patient database management + medical equipment + devices ,Music stays as does Entertainment and Film . VIAO or whatever PC xx is history already
Sony Game et,al +PS + xx game device could be sold to raise cash and the big money sugar daddy Finance ,insurance and re insurance business ofc stays . Word is the Sony board wants out of C.E.,Game (for some cash) and TV .

This information is speculative and should not be considered as advise and should not be used for trading.

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post #230 of 538 Old 08-02-2014, 11:59 PM
 
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An example of said diversification is Panasonic's partnership with Tesla to open the biggest battery factory evar! One can envision a decreased reliance on loss-leading consumer electronics with moves like these.
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post #231 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 12:33 AM
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Not to everyone. ;-)

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post #232 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 12:39 AM
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An example of said diversification is Panasonic's partnership with Tesla to open the biggest battery factory evar! One can envision a decreased reliance on loss-leading consumer electronics with moves like these.
Panny CE is worse than loss leading its straight up loss at Panny (for years) unfortunately.

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post #233 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 12:48 AM
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That's fine. I've got a ZT set up in a living room scenario...only in the brightest of conditions does it have me wondering what an F8500 might be able to achieve. In low level ambient lighting or darkness (absolutely preferred viewing environments), that thought is soon forgotten. The ZT needs no further defense.
ZT is top drawer it can make stunning pictures no lie made a strong impression on me nothing to dis or throw rocks at !
ZT has never needed defense it is reference quality and widely considered an all time best !☺

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post #234 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 12:56 AM
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An example of said diversification is Panasonic's partnership with Tesla to open the biggest battery factory evar! One can envision a decreased reliance on loss-leading consumer electronics with moves like these.
Panasonic powers solar /electric lithium ion spaceship to the moon and beyond ................you heard it first here ☺☺☺

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post #235 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 01:06 AM
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I take it you mean Patrik over at AVF? I've been following his saga with a keen interest as well, and he actually prefers the look of the OLED now (after weeks of tweaking) since becoming accustomed to the KRP-500M for 6 months. From what I have personally seen and read, I don't believe there is any undefeatable edge enhancement or sharpness being employed on the OLEDs. You won't get the thin veneer of dithering either, however.
AVF ................ AVS is that why you picked wandering star I've seen AVF looks legit how U like ?

I remember when Kuro was in the stores the most awesome sets at the time and still stand up very well 2 day.
brother in law had one nice set ! he might have a ZT 60/65 or something like that by now

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post #236 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 05:17 AM
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Panasonic is probably not participating because they may have decided to stop making TVs completely.

I would not be surprised to see an announcement from them by the end of year, or sooner, that they have made such a decision.

I would suggest that Panasonic is not participating because 1. they lost last year's shootout and are having a hissy fit 2/ They know their flagship set can't compete in this lineup 3. Robert is no longer a Panny dealer and won't permit their inclusion as they have an exclusive with BB 4. see #1 . 5. They may exit the TV business in a year.
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post #237 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 05:31 AM
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I would suggest that Panasonic is not participating because 1. they lost last year's shootout and are having a hissy fit 2/ They know their flagship set can't compete in this lineup 3. Robert is no longer a Panny dealer and won't permit their inclusion as they have an exclusive with BB 4. see #1 . 5. They may exit the TV business in a year.

Robert already said he would have allowed them. Since they signed an exclusive agreement with a BB however it makes things difficult for Robert. I wouldn't have even added 3 personally.
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post #238 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I would suggest that Panasonic is not participating because 1. they lost last year's shootout and are having a hissy fit 2/ They know their flagship set can't compete in this lineup 3. Robert is no longer a Panny dealer and won't permit their inclusion as they have an exclusive with BB 4. see #1 . 5. They may exit the TV business in a year.
I think another issue is that (at the moment) there's no 78" or larger UHDTV from Panasonic, and that's a parameter for this year's event.

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post #239 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 06:59 AM
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I would suggest that Panasonic is not participating because 1. they lost last year's shootout and are having a hissy fit 2/ They know their flagship set can't compete in this lineup 3. Robert is no longer a Panny dealer and won't permit their inclusion as they have an exclusive with BB 4. see #1 . 5. They may exit the TV business in a year.
We talked about that a few posts up and one or two below probably has nothing at all to do with value TV or whatever they call it or Robert If you want the scoop see above post 229 and a couple down

imajic may have a point he might not know why Panny doesn't have a big panel but I have some ideas although he seems to be in the know about this stuff and might know plenty I don't know . I just look at the overall business end
and at this point speculate but there is plenty out there to see which way the wind is blowing if you know where to look .


I believe Panasonic has much bigger fish to fry (around the world ) than a local TV re seller these days
that might be one reason they don't and may never have large LCD (panels can be had ) who knows if they will keep TV long enough for OLED. I think its safe to say the local TV shoot out is probably the last thing on Pannys mind right about now keep in mind the are a global multinational and TV is a small (and shrinking ) part of the picture for them .

Trust me I've seen multinationals roll out new product and close down or sell a business unit within 3-6 mo.(first hand BTW from both sides ) they have to keep things attractive for brand equity when they go to sell .


Somebody (probably TPV if they can or want to leverage a buy will get TV and maybe CE brands . ( I haven't looked at (TPV) finance yet and they just bought Phillips TV also they have a substantial equity stake in Vizio so it may or may not fit .

As a strictly business case there are plenty of cash phatt equity firms in the PRC with lots cash just siting in banks that they need to get out of the republic for investment purposes though so that may happen also.


TPV or another will want to pay bottom dollar though it's a waiting game today anyway + Panny needs the cash for other business opportunities and capital expenditures the currency exchange rates are not at all in their favor so TV can not ever sell their way out of it no matter how many TV they sell that they don't even make anymore for the most part.

IMO Panasonic TV is a dead man walking Long term (and it might not be long ) Panasonic TV will likely survive as an owned brand only .

This information is speculative and should not be considered as advise and should not be used for trading.

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post #240 of 538 Old 08-03-2014, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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we talked about that a few posts up probably has nothing at all to do with value TV or whatever they call it or Robert
whatever . see post 229 and one or two below if you want the scoop


Panasonic has much bigger fish to fry (around the world ) than a local TV re seller these days
I spoke directly with both Panasonic and Robert about this.

1. Robert does not stock Panasonic, nor will he be able to this year due to the BB exclusivity, so he'd have to buy one in order to include it in the shootout.

2. Panasonic has yet to release the AX900, which is the TV he's really interested in evaluating, performance-wise.

3. The only UHDTV Panasonic has right now (AX800U) maxes out at 65 inches. All of the UHD/4K TVs in the shootout are larger.

That about covers it.

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