2014 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results Are In - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
Samsung is currently out of making OLEDs, but has supposedly found a way to reduce the number of steps required for manufacture and greatly increase their yields. So they are saying they may be back to making them in 2015. The only other large manufacture making a commitment is TCL with a new 1 billion dollar factory to make 70% 4K LCD and 30% OLED. I have no idea if they licensed LG's WOLED method are are using the new printing method. Looks like LG is going to have the OLED market to themselves for at least a few years before China takes over.
That's a big deal, TCL is going to move fast. Good for LG though, bringing the next generation of display technology to the home, finally in sizes and resolutions that compete with high-end LCD. Hopefully the price discrepancy evaporates once TCL gets in the game.

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post #452 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
As far as FPR goes anyway, the system still requires that one eye [circular] polarization fully eliminates the opposing eye information. Such things remain imperfect.

But so far the reports on the FPR 3D on these things has been fantastic. I have my fingers crossed that this remains true.

Everyone with passive DLP's have thought their 3D playback was perfect in the crosstalk department, no? or is it only for active setups?
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post #453 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quick question for all of you - I'm thinking of a TV for daytime and a projector for night time use. Given that the TV would only be used in the daytime, I'm curious as to what would you recommend?

Thanks,
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post #454 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Quick question for all of you - I'm thinking of a TV for daytime and a projector for night time use. Given that the TV would only be used in the daytime, I'm curious as to what would you recommend?

Thanks,
Dave
Probably something with a IPS panel. Definitely not a VA panel.
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post #455 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Probably something with a IPS panel. Definitely not a VA panel.
The TV section at Best Buy is a lot like a daylight-filled viewing environment. VA panels look fine under those conditions. Why IPS? Just curious.

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post #456 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 07:15 PM
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I,ve been led to believe that ISP panels are more matted allowing for better off axis performance and light diffusion while VA panels have better black levels leading to better overall contrast. I believe that Samsungs S-PVA panel is considered an excellent PQ panel for low light viewing. Of course 95% of my knowledge or lack of knowledge has been accumulated over the years here at AVS. That certainly doesn't negate the possibility that I may have misconstrued that information along the way.
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post #457 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Quick question for all of you - I'm thinking of a TV for daytime and a projector for night time use. Given that the TV would only be used in the daytime, I'm curious as to what would you recommend?

Thanks,
Dave
goto here the "help me choose an LCD" thread >after reading the tread sticky goto last page > and then post accordingly that's the spot for general "what TV should I buy" questions and will likely get more replies once your requirements are posted per the thread sticky
you can link that post here also so this group can hook you up as well .

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post #458 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I,ve been led to believe that ISP panels are more matted allowing for better off axis performance and light diffusion while VA panels have better black levels leading to better overall contrast. I believe that Samsungs S-PVA panel is considered an excellent PQ panel for low light viewing. Of course 95% of my knowledge or lack of knowledge has been accumulated over the years here at AVS. That certainly doesn't negate the possibility that I may have misconstrued that information along the way.
IPS panels are sometimes more transitive as a rule ,have poor black levels and contrast but can otherwise make accurate decent color and sharpness and present a better view angle. I have 5 VA panels and one LG set w/ IPS panel it does not play nice in the dark but is decent in reasonable daylight /room light but not as good as decent high contrast VA panel the trade off is VA panels have abysmal view angles and off angle color shift. Luckily I never watch the LG IPS panel I much prefer decent VA panel despite abysmal view angle

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #459 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
IPS panels are sometimes more transitive as a rule ,have poor black levels and contrast but can otherwise make accurate decent color and sharpness and present a better view angle. I have 5 VA panels and one LG set w/ IPS panel it does not play nice in the dark but is decent in reasonable daylight /room light but not as good as decent high contrast VA panel the trade off is VA panels have abysmal view angles and off angle color shift. Luckily I never watch the LG IPS panel I much prefer decent VA panel despite abysmal view angle
Yep, that,s what I thought. Glad I haven't been feeding people bad info.
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post #460 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 11:15 PM
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I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across
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post #461 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
goto here the "help me choose an LCD" thread >after reading the tread sticky goto last page > and then post accordingly that's the spot for general "what TV should I buy" questions and will likely get more replies once your requirements are posted per the thread sticky
you can link that post here also so this group can hook you up as well .

Thanks for the information! The only thing is - what if plasma or OLED is better than LCD for my situation. That's why I thought I would ask my question here.


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post #462 of 544 Old 08-22-2014, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across

It's interesting that the better rated TV's seem to have it. Is it that noticeable with regular program material?


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Dave

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post #463 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
It's interesting that the better rated TV's seem to have it. Is it that noticeable with regular program material?


Thanks,
Dave
On the ZT....depends on what I watch. Hockey is worst.

Samsung PDP in my room...everything has it. Its disgusting.

Samsung F8500...didnt own it long enough to see but when I ran slides I could easily see bands and thin stripes running vertically and across the display. Returned it without a second thought

Pioneer Kuro Signature Series...i could spot it often but didn't know what it was. Thought it was the stuff I was watching. Sometimes ignorance is bliss!
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post #464 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The TV section at Best Buy is a lot like a daylight-filled viewing environment. VA panels look fine under those conditions. Why IPS? Just curious.
I've been waiting for the calibration reports and haven't come across them yet.

Have you seen them anywhere? Link?

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post #465 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across
The more I read and view in the stores the more I believe my 2004 commercial Panasonic 50phd7uy should be the reference rather than the Kuro. CNET rated it 9/10 when it rerated the set in 2013 under more stringent criteria then 2004.
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post #466 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across
Because quality specs have gone down in order to meet lower costs as that is what the primary market wants. We on AVS may care but we are 1%.
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post #467 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Because quality specs have gone down in order to meet lower costs as that is what the primary market wants. We on AVS may care but we are 1%.
I think its more than just the 1% that care....but its the 1% willing to go through the hassle of returning everything

I also don't see how quality specs could be the issue with the ZT60....seeing how it was "assembled invidivually" by hand and the special auto clave process used for bonding the glass and plasma panel together. It has to be super clean for that to happen. I swear I assumed the ZT60 was going to be immune from DSE just b/c the autoclaving needed the screen to be extremely clean and DSE was some dirt/residue from the manufacturing process.....apparently not.

Also, my old kuro signature series had it which confuses me even more.....That panel had the best tolerances for all its parts. So how does the screen get go by unnoticed? I don't get it.....

I really wish we asked this question at the shootout. We could've gotten an answer from the front line guys from each company or maybe they'd take it back to R & D/Engineering
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post #468 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 07:24 AM
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Thanks for the information! The only thing is - what if plasma or OLED is better than LCD for my situation. That's why I thought I would ask my question here.


Dave
You can post info here Screen size,view distance, desired cost, room light,type of use here ,in Plasma or OLED threads .
Only 2 or 3 LG OLED around right now anyway . Ultimately for a lot of folks Plasma and OLED
are better picture, Others might want 2K or 4K LCD for various reasons.

OTOH in bright rooms and often at lower cost than OLED some might prefer LCD in general .

You can also post in choose LCD thread and note you are open to Plamsa,LCD and OLED also some folks like me own LCD and Plasma the chosen ones around here own all 3 !☺☺

Bang for the buck in light controlled room depending on use is Samsung Plasma . I have one of those and 5 LCD each are fine in appropriate rooms and use . Samsung plasma has the nod for picture here in reasonably (blinds are all ) but not extremely light controlled room ,can watch fine in day if not facing sun also .Decent LCD are good in bright Rooms OLED is ofc interesting as well .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #469 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 07:29 AM
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Mass production is to blame. Would be interesting if anyone has seen the Hand Made TV from Sweden?
Is it DSE that's being seen or the Filter Layers?
Like Buzzing Plasmas, some hear them others don't. Of all the TVs I currently have, or have had, reSE - I guess I just haven't seen it on any of my sets. But then I don't sit very close to my sets either, and always dead on, or within 15 degrees from the sweet spot.
Next question would be, do most gamers sit close to their sets, and this disparity is more noticeable?
Lastly, don't watch Sports, or game.
Current TVs - LG 55LHX - my main set I watch in my bedroom. Basement system - Samsung PN64F8500. Various other LGs and Samsungs through out the house. (Make wife happy - watches from various regions of the house depending on what she's doing.)
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post #470 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 07:44 AM
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Mass production is to blame. Would be interesting if anyone has seen the Hand Made TV from Sweden?
Is it DSE that's being seen or the Filter Layers?
Like Buzzing Plasmas, some hear them others don't. Of all the TVs I currently have, or have had, reSE - I guess I just haven't seen it on any of my sets. But then I don't sit very close to my sets either, and always dead on, or within 15 degrees from the sweet spot.
Next question would be, do most gamers sit close to their sets, and this disparity is more noticeable?
Lastly, don't watch Sports, or game.
Current TVs - LG 55LHX - my main set I watch in my bedroom. Basement system - Samsung PN64F8500. Various other LGs and Samsungs through out the house. (Make wife happy - watches from various regions of the house depending on what she's doing.)
Hand made TV from Sweden is probably Samsung, LG,and Sony parts inside with same panels everyone else uses
made in the same mass production panel fabs probably the same for the automated production wave soldered
circuit boards inside and the injection molded plastic cabinet and parts on the Swedish set don't believe the hype
global supply chain is same for everyone including Sweden ! Hand made Zenith's went out of production in the 1960's
Cant hand make semiconductors or most boards not to mention signal path would be to long with to much resistance even if you could somehow make with sub atomic size fingers ☺☺.

No such thing as perfect TV you just have to decide which issues you can live with e.g. OLED,Plasma,LCD all have thier own issues .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #471 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 07:52 AM
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Watching Home theater Geeks V.E. shootout episode # 220 on Twit TV Roku channel right now (might be on You Tube as well ) with Scott and Mark H. (aka imagic ) and the Value TV proprietor good very interesting discussion highly recommend folks here to watch same . Shout out to all that made V.E. shootout and HTG episode happen ☺☺☺

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #472 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I,ve been led to believe that ISP panels are more matted allowing for better off axis performance and light diffusion while VA panels have better black levels leading to better overall contrast. I believe that Samsungs S-PVA panel is considered an excellent PQ panel for low light viewing. Of course 95% of my knowledge or lack of knowledge has been accumulated over the years here at AVS. That certainly doesn't negate the possibility that I may have misconstrued that information along the way.
If you look at the IPS panel used in the 79" XBR900B, you can clearly see the superior viewing angles relative to virtually any other current Sony. Black levels? Not so much.
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post #473 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I think we forgot to ask the most important question about flat panel tvs at the shootout


How do DSE-affected panels pass quality control?

My ZT60 has it ( very minimal but there )

My Samsung PDP has it

My returned Samsung F8500 had it

My old old Pioneer Kuro ( Signature Series! ) had it

How the hell is this acceptable and within spec? Its such a pain in the a$$ to come across
That's brings up an excellent point. DSE would not be a bad category to have in the voting. Few artifacts can ruin the viewing experience more than that caused by DSE as you watch a camera pan.

Like you, my Pioneer Kuro had it as did the Sony XBR929 I returned because of it. Fortunately I don't see it on my F8500.

Last edited by Ken Ross; 08-23-2014 at 12:32 PM.
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post #474 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 10:10 AM
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If you look at the IPS panel used in the 79" XBR900B, you can clearly see the superior viewing angles relative to virtually any other current Sony. Black levels? Not so much.
I don't think That I'm in the minority in thinking this way but if I'm in the price market for a 79" to 84" display I probably fall in the videophile category and off axis viewing is of minor concern compared to black levels and contrast. Screen reflection is something I can probably afford to control so I want a VA screen. I most certainly fall into that category.
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post #475 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
I don't think That I'm in the minority in thinking this way but if I'm in the price market for a 79" to 84" display I probably fall in the videophile category and off axis viewing is of minor concern compared to black levels and contrast. Screen reflection is something I can probably afford to control so I want a VA screen. I most certainly fall into that category.
It's probably room dependent to a point. Some people will have a screen that big and flat out need viewing angles.

Others will have it on the short-ish wall of a long-ish room and not need off axis at all.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #476 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 11:16 AM
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It's probably room dependent to a point. Some people will have a screen that big and flat out need viewing angles.

Others will have it on the short-ish wall of a long-ish room and not need off axis at all.
Very valid point. Just speaking for myself, if I have to be concerned with viewing angels with a 84" display I would maybe be looking at a top end projector and screen for less money than the 84". Of course the advantage of a stand alone TV is important to many people.
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post #477 of 544 Old 08-23-2014, 10:43 PM
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All this tells me that plasma is still king. At least when you factor in value.
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post #478 of 544 Old 08-24-2014, 01:49 AM
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Is it DSE that's being seen or the Filter Layers?
DSE is caused by the anti glare/filter layers. Theres people out there that remove the filters to get rid of the effect but its very risky and can lead to other negatives.
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post #479 of 544 Old 08-24-2014, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post
All this tells me that plasma is still king. At least when you factor in value.
In lots of country's it is really hard to get a decent plasma since production has stopped, will stop this year. Samsung and Panasonic Plasma's hard to find. Only LG Plasma's can be bought in stores lately. So the question is AFAIK, is LG Plasma king when you factor in value?
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post #480 of 544 Old 08-24-2014, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
In lots of country's it is really hard to get a decent plasma since production has stopped, will stop this year. Samsung and Panasonic Plasma's hard to find. Only LG Plasma's can be bought in stores lately. So the question is AFAIK, is LG Plasma king when you factor in value?
Its really sad that plasma is going away. I am glad I got my Panasonic 60" ST60 when I did. I hope it lasts because I will not buy a LCD and OLED will be expensive for the foreseeable future.

As far as LG plasmas, they are just not very good. And I'm sure they will be exiting the plasma game soon as well.

If you are in need of a TV right now go find a leftover Samsung 8500 (if any are left).

If my Panny craps out I will literally go find another used ST60 to buy rather than get a new LCD or OLED.

Last edited by wattheF; 08-24-2014 at 06:05 AM.
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