2014 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results Are In - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Because there are no absolutes of what defines a given score, each person essentially has their own scale so you have to look at relative differences between scores and not raw numbers.
Folks at the Shootout are videophiles, should be roughly able to give a objective score. I see no problem with that. I could do that. And most participants should be able to do that. bad - good enough - excellent.
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Right, if there were more plasmas and maybe even a CRT or two those LEDs would be scored even worse than they are now.
An avarage score of 7.5 is not worse at all. That is a pretty good score. All LEDs scored well except for the HU8550. Were do you get the ''scored even worse than they are now" from?

You folks only want to see the best, and are convinced that everything that is not the best sucks. You seem to forget that there is also something like good enough. I need folks at the Shootout to tell me what is bad, good enough and what is the best. To me that is what the scores result is all about. When folks give bad motion a 7 when they should have giving it a 4 scores as well as event becomes meaningless.
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post #32 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 05:57 PM
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I thought this would be Sony's year.........better luck next year. Congrats LG on the win, and love how the old technology plasma still beating LCD with new tech lol.
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post #33 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Something doesn't add up...



The F8500 had the highest average score (or got the most points if you want to think about it that way).
Looks like the winner is the TV that scored highest in the most categories.

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post #34 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

An avarage score of 7.5 is not worse at all. That is a pretty good score. All LEDs scored well except for the HU8550. Were do you get the ''scored even worse than they are now" from?

You folks only want to see the best, and are convinced that everything that is not the best sucks. You seem to forget that there is also something like good enough. I need folks at the Shootout to tell me what is bad, good enough and what is the best. To me that is what the scores result is all about. When folks give bad motion a 7 when they should have giving it a 4 scores as well as event becomes meaningless.
Please re-read what I said, I said "if" other displays(more Plasmas and maybe even some CRTs) were included in the Shootout the LEDs would have scored even lower than what they did. They would have been pushed down by higher scoring displays, the scoring is relative, not absolute/objective/linear which is what you seem to be wanting.

The reason we want the best, and the raison d'ĂȘtre for having the shootout is to determine the best of the best, they were not looking for "good enough, we want to know which is the best, which is what you see in the results.
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post #35 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Looks like the winner is the TV that scored highest in the most categories.
So, in a sense, the scoring actually is weighted and not a "best of show" overall. At least that's how I'm interpreting it.
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post #36 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 06:53 PM
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This was posted one of the other threads:
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Interesting results, aren't they?

I can personally tell you that myself, Kevin and David do not agree with the posted audience results nor do we think they are valid based on our interactions during both presentations. The numbers don't add up and seem to be weighted. We the calibrators had ZERO input/interaction with how the numbers were calculated (nor should we) but something is definitely wrong.

Sorry for what is clearly erroneous data but again, we the calibrators had nothing to do with it.
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post #37 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
Interesting that the black levels on the PN64F8500 were measured at .0041 this year and .0017 last year. Did any of the calibrators comment on this?
That was the ANSI checkerboard measurements. I take it you also are not aware of the firmware updates that impacted both blacks and light output to resolve brightness pops/fluctuating black levels.


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post #38 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
That was the ANSI checkerboard measurements. I take it you also are not aware of the firmware updates that impacted both blacks and light output to resolve brightness pops/fluctuating black levels.
Thanks for the reply! I noticed the mll of .0025 after my post and wasn't aware of the firmware updates.

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post #39 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
Thanks for the reply! I noticed the mll of .0025 after my post and wasn't aware of the firmware updates.
No worries. Many people are unaware of what the firmware updates have done.


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post #40 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bigtom4prez View Post
I believe the list of numbers are checkboard ANSI pattern. The bottom number is the full black screen reading. F8500 is mll .0025 and ANSI .0041. World class numbers very recently.
I swear I remember seeing the F8500 measure 0.0017 mll full screen...how is it 0.0025 mll now?
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post #41 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I swear I remember seeing the F8500 measure 0.0017 mll full screen...how is it 0.0025 mll now?
Firmware updates, unit to unit variation?
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post #42 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I figure I'll share my votes here:



Congratulations to LG. The OLED won despite a number of flaws that kept it from being perfect, which is a really good sign. I suspect the forthcoming UHD OLEDs will be formidable TVs. As it stands, 1080p still beats UHD... and the F8500 beat all of the LCDs in every single category. I also want to congratulate the audience as well as the pros for voting wisely.
Isn't contrast ratio related to black level?
If so, how the sony with 714 had a higher black score than the hu85 with 3000?

Thanks for the clarification.
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post #43 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I swear I remember seeing the F8500 measure 0.0017 mll full screen...how is it 0.0025 mll now?
That was last May BEFORE subsequent firmware updates. They now vary between .002 and .003fL dependent on size and sample.


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One can't help but wonder how it might have affected the audience vote and subsequently the final winner in 2013.
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post #45 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Anyone know how many hours has the F8500?
Id also like to know which firmware version it had

I see the peak brightness it could reach on 4x4 checkerboard was 52 ftl....which btw is NOTHING compared to the once 84 ftL it was capable of one year ago!
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post #46 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
I swear I remember seeing the F8500 measure 0.0017 mll full screen...how is it 0.0025 mll now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Firmware updates, unit to unit variation?
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
That was last May BEFORE subsequent firmware updates. They now vary between .002 and .003fL dependent on size and sample.
Ouch...that must hurt for some F8500 owners.

Why would Samsung want to raise its mll? I can understand ( even though I still disapprove of it ) lowering the brightness to more reasonable levels possible bc of potential over-heating issues. But they developed the F8500 to combat the Kuro if anyone remembers....i just don't get some decisions these manufactures make
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post #47 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
So, in a sense, the scoring actually is weighted and not a "best of show" overall. At least that's how I'm interpreting it.
Its also brand loyalty whether the audience wants to admit it or not. How do I come to this? You have pro calibrators at the show in total disagreement with regular/enthusiasts even from AVS. I rate the calibrators opinion higher by a long shot. Its also based on people that having way different sight from 20/20, 20/10, to 20/40. Its ultimately up to the buyer to like what they see.


Personally, no way would I buy a 55" 1080p OLED over a Samsung UHD 78UH9000 that has been well calibrated. 23 inch difference there, that's HUGE! If you sat both TVs calibrated next to each other, and said they were free, which one you going to take?? Size matters too! You have a regular lot of people come over for movies or football, you telling me you are going to huddle everyone around the wittle 55incher or the 78 inch UHD TV?

No these shootouts have too many variables working against them with individual eyesight being one of them. Its a nice thought, it just doesn't work. Now if you guys want to have a 55 inch panel shootout, with 65 incher in the same thread cool. Compare size to size.
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post #48 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:35 PM
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Heard from a friend who went to the event, The competition was a fixed joke, he asked why was the tv, that would would have easily beat the immature tech of OLED IF they were put side by side on same eye level.

They were told to put it that high so as not to embarrass the other tvs from Samsung and the others from other makers.

Also they had room to put it lower IF they would have used both side of showroom.
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post #49 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I do not look at it that way. To me 6 and above represent good enough. It is not just me this is how rating in general works. There is bad, good enough and excellent represented by a 4, 6, and 8.

Imagic gave LG OLED motion resolution a 4. That is a clear statement. It means in his view LG motion resoltion is bad. It as simple as that.
I agree that a rating of 6 isn't that bad. but if the best of the best is getting a 6, what the heck is going on with the 10models below it? I mean if these were mid level displays that cost around 1000-1500 for a 65" then 6 would be totally respectable.


but, as a teacher, if my 'smartest' student only got 60%, I'd be trying to figure out what the heck I did wrong. 60% is below 'average' and while it may be 'good enough' in the large scheme of things, it's not like we'd nominate a kid with 60% average for a scholarship.


imo, any display getting a rating lower than 8 overall has no business being called 'high end'.
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post #50 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Looks like the winner is the TV that scored highest in the most categories.
were those categories not weighted? they mentioned an hierarchy of importance, with things like contrast and black level at the top(the things the oled excelled in) and motion resolution at the bottom(one of the categories the f8500 won).

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post #51 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Vegas oled View Post
As the Forum Member who has Fought harder in the name of LG OLED I have one comment.


Do You Believe in LG OLED Now?
What lol. You were just about to buy a samsung OLED and you've returned lg OLED tvs already.

By the way the pros picked samsung OLED. It doesn't matter what we believe after all your tv buying and returning do you BELIEVE!?
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
Ouch...that must hurt for some F8500 owners.

Why would Samsung want to raise its mll? I can understand ( even though I still disapprove of it ) lowering the brightness to more reasonable levels possible bc of potential over-heating issues. But they developed the F8500 to combat the Kuro if anyone remembers....i just don't get some decisions these manufactures make
They actually built and (tweaked) it to combat the Vieras...I'm not sure they were too concerned about 5-year-old technology.
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post #53 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:45 PM
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DRaven72 the vote was for the best picture quality not for TV size.






TV size have nothing to do with picture quality.

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post #54 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
This was posted one of the other threads:
is this about the lg winning over the f8500? or that the 'calibrators pick' was the Samsung oled over the lg oled? or something else completely?


I ask only because the results seemed 'obvious' to me. the oleds, which they praised as being nearly kuro killers were at the top, the plasma second, and the lcd's at the bottom.

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post #55 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
That was the ANSI checkerboard measurements. I take it you also are not aware of the firmware updates that impacted both blacks and light output to resolve brightness pops/fluctuating black levels.
can you confirm which fw update this was? or even around which update? I'm curious if I had the before/after or if I've always had the 'fixed' fw. thx

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post #56 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Something doesn't add up...



The F8500 had the highest average score (or got the most points if you want to think about it that way).

I had the same question. It would be good to understand how the winner is determined from the scores. I assumed it would be the panel with the most total points or highest average across all categories?
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post #57 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DRaven72 View Post
Its also brand loyalty whether the audience wants to admit it or not. How do I come to this? You have pro calibrators at the show in total disagreement with regular/enthusiasts even from AVS. I rate the calibrators opinion higher by a long shot. Its also based on people that having way different sight from 20/20, 20/10, to 20/40. Its ultimately up to the buyer to like what they see.


Personally, no way would I buy a 55" 1080p OLED over a Samsung UHD 78UH9000 that has been well calibrated. 23 inch difference there, that's HUGE! If you sat both TVs calibrated next to each other, and said they were free, which one you going to take?? Size matters too! You have a regular lot of people come over for movies or football, you telling me you are going to huddle everyone around the wittle 55incher or the 78 inch UHD TV?

No these shootouts have too many variables working against them with individual eyesight being one of them. Its a nice thought, it just doesn't work. Now if you guys want to have a 55 inch panel shootout, with 65 incher in the same thread cool. Compare size to size.
just to share a contrasting opinion, but I've never cared that much about size. it's nice to have a larger screen, but never at the sacrifice of quality. if all you wanted was large, you'd spend 400bux on a cheap projector and get a 200" image on your wall. I'm sure even you would agree that would lead to a quality that's too low to enjoy. so the point is, we each have our own level of quality that we consider necessary. if yours is at a point where these monster lcd's are 'good enough' then the extra size could absolutely be a bonus. for me, when I look at them, all I see is the small flaws blown up to huge flaws. I'd honestly probably enjoy a 40" lcd more than a 70" lcd because of this.


not saying you're wrong, in any way. but everybody is different, and bigger is only better if it's still high enough quality for YOU.

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post #58 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 08:08 PM
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ZT60 FTW it would seem (again).
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post #59 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post
What lol. You were just about to buy a samsung OLED and you've returned lg OLED tvs already.

By the way the pros picked samsung OLED. It doesn't matter what we believe after all your tv buying and returning do you BELIEVE!?
I am a BIG believer in OLED and was convinced the only issue I do like with LG OLED is screen Uniformity would be fixed. While some of them are acceptable the last one I had gave visible banding in low light grey scenes like in a outdoor fog scene. The second set I had color variations from the center too the edge as I have posted about causing major issues in black and white scenes. What we do not want is LG to continue with these issues on a 77 OLED. I assure you it would drive most of the 2% crazy.
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post #60 of 544 Old 08-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
Ouch...that must hurt for some F8500 owners.

Why would Samsung want to raise its mll? I can understand ( even though I still disapprove of it ) lowering the brightness to more reasonable levels possible bc of potential over-heating issues. But they developed the F8500 to combat the Kuro if anyone remembers....i just don't get some decisions these manufactures make
Raise mll and you've made the blacks more stable as they don't need to float as much since there's now less distance to travel. Then say 'mission accomplished' and type "picture quality improved" into your firmware notes.
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