Emissive HDTVs Beat Transmissive UHDTVs in Value Electronics 2014 Shootout - Page 21 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 578Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #601 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 05:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wuther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
I know most owners dismiss this issue because they claim not to abuse their sets in the same way as stores. But is that really a valid argument? These store TVs are relatively new so seeing signs of IR or BI so early seems like a bad sign.
Like I wrote before going by your logic LCDs should not be bought either, there have definitely been burn-ins and other age related problems with LCDs and a person does not know with a new make/model LCD until years later and that includes even the high-end LCDs.

Last edited by wuther; 09-01-2014 at 05:53 PM.
wuther is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #602 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 06:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
The last thing I would ever expect with a new LED/LCD is an age related degradation of the picture. Any problem should make itself evident within the first 100 hours or so. Comparing burn-in or ir from a LCD TV to a plasma would be like comparing a drag race between a Corvette and Yugo.
andy sullivan is offline  
post #603 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 06:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wuther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
The last thing I would ever expect with a new LED/LCD is an age related degradation of the picture. Any problem should make itself evident within the first 100 hours or so.
Well you're wrong, even as little as 3 years ago age related image degradation has appeared in a high end LED LCD that the first 100 hours would not indicate. I have worked with LCDs in industrial scale settings and age related degradation happens sure enough.

Try telling that to technical support in large companies if you dont mind being laughed at.

Last edited by wuther; 09-01-2014 at 06:52 PM.
wuther is offline  
post #604 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 06:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
6athome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post
Well you're wrong, even as little as 3 years ago age related degradation has appeared in a high end LED LCD that the first 100 hours would not indicate. I have worked with LCDs in industry scale settings and age related degradation happens sure enough.
Maybe I'm the old dog in this kennel,I have a old Samsung 81 F FALD from 2007 it has not had any degradation,maybe it's because it has a 10 bit panel?
6athome is offline  
post #605 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 06:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post
Well you're wrong, even as little as 3 years ago age related degradation has appeared in a high end LED LCD that the first 100 hours would not indicate. I have worked with LCDs in industry scale settings and age related degradation happens sure enough.
The point's not that it can never happen. I stand by my beleif that age related PQ is the last problem I would expect to see in new 2014 major brand LED/LCD TV. Maybe a stuck pixel or clouding or banding or edge lit light bleed or even the one in a five hundred chance of seeing noticeable ir. But all but the miniscule chance of ir would show up within 20 or 30 hours. All but the banding would show up immediately. True burn-in on a plasma is devastating and ruinous to a plasma TV, which is why the owners manual flat out states that burn-in is not covered under warranty.
fafrd likes this.
andy sullivan is offline  
post #606 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
wuther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
The point's not that it can never happen. I stand by my beleif that age related PQ is the last problem I would expect to see in new 2014 major brand LED/LCD TV. Maybe a stuck pixel or clouding or banding or edge lit light bleed or even the one in a five hundred chance of seeing noticeable ir. But all but the miniscule chance of ir would show up within 20 or 30 hours.
Again 20 or 30 or 100 hours is not much of an indication of LCD age related image degradation in my and the technical support I work with experience but keep coming up with hour numbers and absurdly low rates if you like. Nor am I referring to minor issues like stuck pixel or clouding or banding or edge lit light bleed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
True burn-in on a plasma is devastating and ruinous to a plasma TV, which is why the owners manual flat out states that burn-in is not covered under warranty.
Since you and a few others keep going on about how bad plasmas are despite plenty of plasmas owners here quite happy with their displays owned for many years (I am one of them) I can only assume it is an attempt to find anything that can be thought of to cling too so as to promote LCD as the best regardless of their shortcomings.

Nor am I claiming OLED will be a success but if it fails it will be for manufacturing reasons not pq.

Last edited by wuther; 09-01-2014 at 08:00 PM.
wuther is offline  
post #607 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 08:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post
Again 20 or 30 or 100 hours is not much of an indication of LCD age related image degradation in my and the technical support I work with experience but keep coming up with hour numbers if you like. Nor am I referring to minor issues like stuck pixel or clouding or banding or edge lit light bleed.

Since you and a few others keep going on about how bad plasmas are despite plenty of plasmas owners here quite happy with their displays owned for many years (I am one of them) I can only assume it is an attempt to find anything that can be thought of to promote LCD as the best regardless of their shortcomings.

Nor am I claiming OLED will be a success but if it fails it will be for manufacturing reasons not pq.
Seriously, spend some time on the burn-in threads on the plasma section of this forum. You can easily spend hours reading through all of those horror story posts regarding burn-in. You'll see plenty of posts there from me questioning why some had serious problems yet others had none.

Nobody ever insinuated that OLED will fail because of PQ issues. Even the best plasmas will take second fiddle to OLED when it comes to PQ. I don't think your mentioning that you are "one of them" was necessary. It's pretty obvious. By the way, I think plasma is a much superior technology than LCD. It just could not compete from a manufacturing cost to LCD. The first plasma I owned was a Sony.
andy sullivan is offline  
post #608 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 08:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Faceless Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Wizz, the way I look at this is (and I'm very serious about this), almost all of the plasmas I've seen at BB have/had very obvious IR/burn-in. It was unmistakable and present on almost every single one. I'm friendly with a Magnolia manager and when they got the ZT60 in, he told me he was particularly careful to mix content on the display model so that IR/burn-in was avoided. Well that worked great until he went on vacation and came back to find that other Magnolia employees had not been so careful. There was ESPN IR (or burn-in) clearly etched in the ZT60. He had tried for about a week to remove it, but traces of it were still visible and I could see it. So if I had used these observations as a gauge, I would never have owned a plasma.

Yet I've never had permanent burn-in on any plasma I've owned. Yes, I've had IR in varying degrees on all of them, but no burn-in. This is why I've said OLEDs should be treated exactly like plasma from the standpoint of precautions taken to avoid burn-in or prolonged IR. It's not all that difficult to mix content that your viewing.
This makes OLEDs useless for gamers then, because gamers will frequently play a game with a persistent HUD element not unlike a constantly present ESPN logo for the duration of the time the game is played.

This is the problem I had with my VT60, I burned in so much game UI crap in mine during the time I owned it. Great TV but impossible for me to keep owning as a gamer. I replaced it with my X900A.
Faceless Rebel is offline  
post #609 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 09:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Yet we have OLED gamers who claim their HUD elements are not causing issues. I'm just as surprised as you.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #610 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 09:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I'm the farthest thing from a plasma expert, but my understanding is that the need for ABL on plasma was primarily driven by the need to remain below maximum power consumption regulations (and that the high power consumption of plasma was one factor, among several, that ultimately led to plasma's demise).

The power consumption of OLED is so much more efficient than plasma that it is highly unlikely there is need for ABL due to the same motivations (max power consumption).

The IGZO backplane LG is using for their OLEDs pass far more current through each drive row trace than IGZO backplanes used for LCD (by Sharp, for example). I don't know what kind of backplane was used for plasma, but it was certainly able to drive even more current that that required by OLED (despite being limited by ABL).

Optimizing performance (ie: no ABL) versus reliability (ie: no IR) versus cost (ie: selling price equivalent to LED/LCD) takes time and product iterations to settle out. And if the current generation of LG OLEDs have not come in pretty close to a sweet-spot, they've only got another couple generations to get there or there is no way LG will be selling the 1 million plus OLEDs per year by 2016 that they need to in order to keep going...

When plasma came on the scene, it was really the first flat-panel display technology to go mainstream. The industry has advanced by leaps and bounds since then, and especially since the LG WOLED approach leverages mainstream LCD manufacturing, I don't think analogies to what happened with plasma are really all that relevant...
I think I'd disagree here with 2 out of your 3 optimizations. To get to the sales numbers you're looking for, the average Joe needs to buy in. For the average Joe, reliability and ABL will probably be two issues that will totally elude him. He will, more than likely, know nothing of either and I'm not convinced LG sees them as issues in need of tweaking either. Heck, even owners are not pointing to ABL as an issue that bothers them. They just don't see it with content.

Reliability has yet to be shown as an issue. All we have is conjecture and supposition. I'm far from convinced this is any more an issue than with plasma or LCD. So who knows if there's really an issue that needs to be optimized? That surely doesn't mean OLEDs are perfect, but I don't see any current PQ issue has being even remotely 'threatening' to its survival.

That leaves cost and that is apparently what LG is zeroed in on with manufacturing efficiencies.
Once the average Joe sees cost as no object, OLED will, without a doubt, both survive and flourish.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #611 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 09:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Faceless Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yet we have OLED gamers who claim their HUD elements are not causing issues. I'm just as surprised as you.
Maybe so, maybe no. Time will tell. I do know that after my plasma experience I'm going to be more cautious with OLED. Once bitten, twice shy as they say. I'm hoping that after a few years, the early OLEDs will be iterated upon, and also Samsung will re-enter the market once they get their house in order. I'm still pretty suspicious that LG feels they need to put an aggressive ABL on OLEDs to slow down phosphor aging and burn-in, it feels like there's something about these TVs they aren't telling us. I'm not poor but I'm also not that interested in paying $7,000 to beta test their new technology for them.
fafrd likes this.
Faceless Rebel is offline  
post #612 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 09:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I think I'd disagree here with 2 out of your 3 optimizations. To get to the sales numbers you're looking for, the average Joe needs to buy in. For the average Joe, reliability and ABL will probably be two issues that will totally elude him. He will, more than likely, know nothing of either and I'm not convinced LG sees them as issues in need of tweaking either. Heck, even owners are not pointing to ABL as an issue that bothers them. They just don't see it with content.

Reliability has yet to be shown as an issue. All we have is conjecture and supposition. I'm far from convinced this is any more an issue than with plasma or LCD. So who knows if there's really an issue that needs to be optimized? That surely doesn't mean OLEDs are perfect, but I don't see any current PQ issue has being even remotely 'threatening' to its survival.

That leaves cost and that is apparently what LG is zeroed in on with manufacturing efficiencies.
Once the average Joe sees cost as no object, OLED will, without a doubt, both survive and flourish.

I agree that when/once OLED reached price parity with LED/LCD, it's survival should more less be guaranteed. Until reaching that point, however, issues like noticeable IR/visibly defective sub-pixels, and even visible ABL-related effects can have an impact on the success of OLED. If customers are paying a premium, they expect a better picture, always. If OLED gains a reputation for having a limited lifetime (as Samsung is apparently trying to suggest) or for being 'delicate' and subject to plasma-related issues like IR, LGs success can be impacted.


But cost is the most significant gap to close right now (and lower cost will go a long way towards earning a certain amount of forgiveness of other sins :-)
fafrd is offline  
post #613 of 687 Old 09-01-2014, 11:37 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,408
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked: 634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post


Yes, but the same could be said of plasmas. A case can be made that ABL was used in plasmas to a) reduce the possibility of damage (burn-in/IR) b) extend the life of some components c) comply with energy standards...etc. So I don't see OLED has having a 'lock' on 'issues with the technology'. To me this is more of an issue with emissive displays whether they be plasma, CRT or OLED.
Did I say it has a "lock on issues" with something? If I did, that was a mis-speak. I'm not going to read back and look for it; I'm surprised I would have said anything like that.
Quote:
Well yes, I prefaced my question by acknowledging that I doubted it was the power supply limitations. But with that said, I'm not sure that ABL in even the latest gen of plasmas was 'only' the result of lower energy requirements. Sure I'm sure it was one of them, but I sincerely doubt it was the only reason.
My 65-inch uses about half the power of the previous 50-inch I had. I'm quite sure if you put the power supply into the new one, even you would have a tough time seeing any ABL. And in a plasma, it's not clear to me how running pixels "hot" most of the time, except when other pixels near it would also be "hot" would have any effect on burn in. If anything, the effect would be so marginal as to be irrelevant.

So, yes, Energy Star was the major culprit. And it was going to contribute to making 4K plasmas impossible, too. And I like the planet, so I'm really OK that the successor tech uses a fraction the power.
Quote:
Will OLEDs improve in these characteristics as time goes on? I'm sure they will, as they have much more upside potential than plasma ever did. But with that said, and I've said it many times before, IMO the current state of OLED, even though relatively 'immature', is still better than anything out there past or present.
No reasonable people are arguing this about the current state of OLED. What reasonable people are arguing is that you don't have to buy a bleeding-edge set for plenty of other reasons, including that next year's model will probably be better, cheaper and perhaps even more reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I think this is spot-on. This is the why they call it the bleeding-edge. Alternatives to trade off performance/picture quality against extended lifetime and reduced risk of damage will take another generation of three to be completely ironed out.
Maybe. And I'm willing to wait at least until, you know, they actually ship more than a few thousand. And I'm telling people the same thing. Others will choose to buy now, which is good for the rest of us.
Quote:
There is another mystery about LG WOLED that might tie in to this question of ABL: the large inter-line gap. The thin traces on the IGZO backplane of an OLED drive a massively greater amount of current than the in the case of an IGZO backplane of an LCD (transient current only).
Correct.
Quote:
The large inter-row gap on the LG WOLED is probably caused by the need for inter-row traces to pass significant amounts of current without damage (electro-migration) or significant resistance-based voltage drop. There are a slew of potential problems associated with too much current going through a trace, including heat from resistance and secondary effects from that heat such as threshold shift, as well as more serious and permanent problems such as increased resistance due to electro-migration.

One of the attractive aspects of the LG WOLED architecture is the face that it is largely based on LCD manufacturing with the most significant change being the replacement of the LCD layer with the white OLED stack. That is all true, but the resulting backplane structure is passing currents far greater than in the case of any LCD and that may be the cause of many of these issues. ABL is one technique to limit peak current into any line - kind of brute-force and crude, but it will result in lower peak current ever going in to any line.
Yeah, so this sounds pretty reasonable to me from a technical standpoint. I don't know that you're correct, but I wouldn't be slightly surprised.
Quote:
We should get a bit more insight into these subjects soon (with the release of the 65EC9700 later this month :-)
I look forward to standing over one with a magnifier.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #614 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Chronoptimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuther View Post
Like I wrote before going by your logic LCDs should not be bought either, there have definitely been burn-ins and other age related problems with LCDs and a person does not know with a new make/model LCD until years later and that includes even the high-end LCDs.
This problem is extremely rare on LCD, typically indicates a faulty design (excessive overdriving) and image retention is usually non-permanent, since every time you switch off the display, it "resets" the pixel wear.
For people who use an LCD even 8-12 hours a day, as long as it is switched off for the rest of the time, it should be very rare that you see image retention, and permanent damage is almost impossible.

With Plasma and OLED, wear accumulates over time and it is very possible for wear to occur through "normal" usage e.g. watching television channels with logos, 4:3 or 21:9 content, playing video games, using a computer connected to the display etc.

While CRTs used to be susceptible to burn-in, it was almost impossible through normal home use in the later models, and would really only be seen on displays which were used for things like arcade monitors or airport displays, displaying static content for every moment that they were in use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yet we have OLED gamers who claim their HUD elements are not causing issues. I'm just as surprised as you.
It probably depends on how much of a gamer you are, and how much you vary the content that you watch.

If you play games for an hour and then spend the next four hours watching broadcast TV with 16:9 content that doesn't have any channel logos, you are unlikely to ever have a problem.

If you're the kind of person that gets home from work and plays the same game for several hours each day while watching very little other content, or someone that spends most of their time watching films on Blu-ray, it's going to be a real problem.


Personally, I only watch films (mostly letterboxed) play games, and use a computer hooked up to my TV, so almost everything I use the display for has static content.
I don't watch any broadcast content, so the majority of 16:9 content I use has a lot of static elements. (Games/PC)

When I get invested in a game, I tend to play it to the exclusion of all other content. Films or TV shows (I do buy a few shows on Blu-ray) take a backseat to the game.
It's not like I have a schedule to keep where X show is on at 9pm and I "have" to watch it, which "forces" a break from the game.
I don't mean to suggest that I have a problem, but if I have three hours spare in the evening, I'd rather spend it all on whatever the latest game I'm hooked on is, than spend it watching three hours of TV. (45 minutes of which is advertising)
Chronoptimist is offline  
post #615 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 06:35 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I agree that when/once OLED reached price parity with LED/LCD, it's survival should more less be guaranteed. Until reaching that point, however, issues like noticeable IR/visibly defective sub-pixels, and even visible ABL-related effects can have an impact on the success of OLED. If customers are paying a premium, they expect a better picture, always. If OLED gains a reputation for having a limited lifetime (as Samsung is apparently trying to suggest) or for being 'delicate' and subject to plasma-related issues like IR, LGs success can be impacted.


But cost is the most significant gap to close right now (and lower cost will go a long way towards earning a certain amount of forgiveness of other sins :-)
Unfortunately much of the reputation that OLED may carry with it (at least within our AVS world) is based on what I feel are unfounded assumptions, speculations and a generous helping of good ol' FUD.

It seems we have a number of people who are convinced that a) OLEDs will do everything but implode within a few weeks of purchase b) LG is pulling a fast one and hiding the truth from us c) OLED color is hideously inaccurate d) burn-in is all but inevitable e) grab a seat and watch your pixels die right in front of you or f) ABL is out of control and the picture is unwatchable with anything that approximates a bright scene. Exaggerations? Not so much IMO. Gee, I wonder why OLED's reputation is in danger?

I could add more to the list, but it's exactly this kind of unfounded supposition that poisons such an incredibly promising tech within the AV world. I'm fully expecting that the old 'you need to refill the plasma gases every year or so' crap will resurface in some form with OLED.

I've said this before and I'm absolutely convinced it's part of the explanation for some of this FUD. Some people, who love their current displays, don't want to be told there are superior ones out there. I see this same psychology with all kinds of AV equipment, not just displays. It's human nature. Many of these same people will go on to say 'the new equipment will be perfected in 3-4 years'...coincidently the same time frame for when they'll be ready for whatever new equipment is being discussed.

The bottom line, IMO, is thus far I see nothing but the same issues we've seen from every emissive display tech we've had. A tendency toward IR? Check. A concern over burn-in if reasonable care isn't taken? Check. Manifestations of ABL under certain conditions? Check. Nothing new. I've had many plasmas. Been there, done that.

As far as how any of this impacts sales among the average buyer? At this point I doubt if it has much, if any impact. The average Joe is oblivious of the OCD that exists on AVS and will not see any of what is discussed here. He's only concerned, at the moment, with cost.

However, I'll say this, if we continue to spread the FUD, if we continue to spread some of these suppositions as facts, and this begins to permeate the general public, then yes, OLED is doomed.

I'm certainly not saying issues should be hidden, but I am saying they should be approached from a more factual direction based on actual owner's reports than some of the posts I've seen here (certainly not yours fafrd ).

As for longevity, LG has already said 'think plasma'. Some choose not to believe that. If LG had said nothing, then they would have been accused of hiding the truth. You can't win.

And so it goes.
markrubin, RandyWalters and fluxo like this.

Last edited by Ken Ross; 09-02-2014 at 08:23 AM.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #616 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 06:43 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,099
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 480
^^^

Great post Ken

I completely forgot about all the questions about how you refill plasma displays with gas:

I guess I assumed they fixed the leak problems
Ken Ross likes this.
markrubin is offline  
post #617 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 06:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
No reasonable people are arguing this about the current state of OLED. What reasonable people are arguing is that you don't have to buy a bleeding-edge set for plenty of other reasons, including that next year's model will probably be better, cheaper and perhaps even more reliable.
And reasonable people could reasonably say this about any display tech in any given year. Nothing unique about OLED.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #618 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 11:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 741
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 90
I contacted Robert at Value Electronics and he sent me the .PDF's for the shootout.

I haven't had time to review them myself, so I don't have any comments.

File attachment on this forum is limited to 33kbyte per PDF; which is ridiculous. So I'll host them for awhile...

55EC9300
KN55S9C
PN65F8500
UN105S9W
UN78HU9000
UN85HU8550
XBR79X900B
XBR85950B

-SiGGy
SiGGy is offline  
post #619 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
An interesting comment from Tom669 in the heading section of this forum title " OLED technology and Flat Panels". OLED is the perfect technology. Manufactures are somewhat afraid to introduce it because it's essentially perfection. Where do we go from here?
All of the concerns being talked about today will easily be remedied. The technology offers a perfect picture, it's light, flexible, inexpensive to manufacture, is capable of 4k and 8k. Where do we go from here?
andy sullivan is offline  
post #620 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sage11x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 2,544
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel View Post
This makes OLEDs useless for gamers then, because gamers will frequently play a game with a persistent HUD element not unlike a constantly present ESPN logo for the duration of the time the game is played.

This is the problem I had with my VT60, I burned in so much game UI crap in mine during the time I owned it. Great TV but impossible for me to keep owning as a gamer. I replaced it with my X900A.
What's interesting to me is my VT60 has been flawless in this regard.

In either case I'd rather deal with issues I can avoid (plasma IR, reflective screen) than issues I can't (LCD backlight uniformity flaws, mediocre black levels, et al.)

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."

--Carl Sagan
sage11x is offline  
post #621 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Chronoptimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
I wonder who calibrated this set - my current Sony LCD shows similar errors with white and the upper gamma values when the contrast control is set too high.

Looking over all the results, I would say that it's somewhat disappointing color performance from all of them when you compare that to the last generation of Panasonic plasmas.
Chronoptimist is offline  
post #622 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
Hisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 364 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
An interesting comment from Tom669 in the heading section of this forum title " OLED technology and Flat Panels". OLED is the perfect technology. Manufactures are somewhat afraid to introduce it because it's essentially perfection. Where do we go from here?
All of the concerns being talked about today will easily be remedied. The technology offers a perfect picture, it's light, flexible, inexpensive to manufacture, is capable of 4k and 8k. Where do we go from here?
This sounds preposterous. It's perfection compared to what we have now, sure. But who is to say OLED is the end game and nothing can improve upon it? You have to think bigger than that.

Besides, OLED still has some of the negative characteristics of other emissive displays, in that it is susceptible to IR/burn-in, right? That doesn't exactly make it perfect.

I love the potential that it opens up though. Imagine when OLED has become commoditized the same way LCD has, and you can have an amazing looking budget display for less than 1k? So what would you get with a high-end display? Well, as much as AVS bitches about TVs with smart features, I can see future high-end displays merging with HTPCs (samsung UHD displays already have quad-core processors) and offering high-end gaming and media-center functionality in a single unit. An apple or google branded smart TV with full access to their respective eco-systems (for gaming & media consumption) would be a great way to differentiate budget TVs from high-end TVs... ie. the difference between a cheap tablet vs a ipad air or samsung tab pro. That is of course once PQ is no longer a limiting factor.

Think outside the box a bit more . There is always a better way to do something. And I hope that any manufacturer that sleeps on OLED gets left in the dust.
Ken Ross likes this.
Hisma is online now  
post #623 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Unfortunately much of the reputation that OLED may carry with it (at least within our AVS world) is based on what I feel are unfounded assumptions, speculations and a generous helping of good ol' FUD.

It seems we have a number of people who are convinced that a) OLEDs will do everything but implode within a few weeks of purchase b) LG is pulling a fast one and hiding the truth from us c) OLED color is hideously inaccurate d) burn-in is all but inevitable e) grab a seat and watch your pixels die right in front of you or f) ABL is out of control and the picture is unwatchable with anything that approximates a bright scene. Exaggerations? Not so much IMO. Gee, I wonder why OLED's reputation is in danger?

I could add more to the list, but it's exactly this kind of unfounded supposition that poisons such an incredibly promising tech within the AV world. I'm fully expecting that the old 'you need to refill the plasma gases every year or so' crap will resurface in some form with OLED.

I've said this before and I'm absolutely convinced it's part of the explanation for some of this FUD. Some people, who love their current displays, don't want to be told there are superior ones out there. I see this same psychology with all kinds of AV equipment, not just displays. It's human nature. Many of these same people will go on to say 'the new equipment will be perfected in 3-4 years'...coincidently the same time frame for when they'll be ready for whatever new equipment is being discussed.

The bottom line, IMO, is thus far I see nothing but the same issues we've seen from every emissive display tech we've had. A tendency toward IR? Check. A concern over burn-in if reasonable care isn't taken? Check. Manifestations of ABL under certain conditions? Check. Nothing new. I've had many plasmas. Been there, done that.

As far as how any of this impacts sales among the average buyer? At this point I doubt if it has much, if any impact. The average Joe is oblivious of the OCD that exists on AVS and will not see any of what is discussed here. He's only concerned, at the moment, with cost.

However, I'll say this, if we continue to spread the FUD, if we continue to spread some of these suppositions as facts, and this begins to permeate the general public, then yes, OLED is doomed.

I'm certainly not saying issues should be hidden, but I am saying they should be approached from a more factual direction based on actual owner's reports than some of the posts I've seen here (certainly not yours fafrd ).

As for longevity, LG has already said 'think plasma'. Some choose not to believe that. If LG had said nothing, then they would have been accused of hiding the truth. You can't win.

And so it goes.
Well-articulated post, the majority of which I agree with, Ken.

In terms of what I highlighted in bold, I believe we here on AVS probably have an inflated sense of the impact our technical fencing matches here on the Forum have on the wider population of consumers and LGs ability to succeed or fail with this OLED initiative. I doubt anything we say or write about is going to have any meaningful impact on whether LG OLED is doomed or not.

In terms of what I believe will be much more critical to LG WOLEDs future, it comes down to:

A/ it's got to look better on the showroom floor (or at least look as good)

B/ it's got to be competitively priced (either a small premium justified by the perceived superiority or priced equivalently if it appears 'just as good')

C/ once at home, it's got to make the consumer happy, so any perceived defects need to be more than compensated by perceived picture quality superiority versus whatever older TV it is replacing (especially if it cost more).


The debate here on the forum is focused on this third point, and I don't believe it's a matter of spreading FUD and 'suppositions as facts' as much as it is about trying to gauge the risks as to whether LG recently-launched Gen-2 products are likely to make the grade or not.

The products have got to be priced at even less of a premium to LED/LCD (as even LG themselves have acknowledged), they have to be marketed much better than the 55EC9300 is being marketed/displayed by Best Buy right now, and pretty much every LG OLED purchased by joe-average-consumer has to be a keeper.

All of these issues we are talking about, if they are invisible to the average consumer, will not impact LGs chances at success (assuming they address the price premium and marketing gaps). But issues like visible yellow-push, IR, or significant and repeated problems with motion that make the average consumer feel like there is something 'wrong' with the set, can lead to an early demise.

The debate is about assessing whether LG OLED is ready for prime-time or not and the alarmists and naysayers are inconsequential in comparison (in my view :-)

From your exposure to the 55EC9300 at the VE Shootout, you seem to be convinced that LGs WOLED is ready for prime-time - I'm sincerely hoping you are right but aware that it is still early days, so each new user experience is worth digesting carefully.

Those defensive types hoping for OLEDs failure so they can feel even more secure knowing that they have the best TV and that position will not be threatened anytime soon should frankly be put on 'ignore'.
fafrd is offline  
post #624 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisma View Post
This sounds preposterous. It's perfection compared to what we have now, sure. But who is to say OLED is the end game and nothing can improve upon it? You have to think bigger than that.

Besides, OLED still has some of the negative characteristics of other emissive displays, in that it is susceptible to IR/burn-in, right? That doesn't exactly make it perfect.

I love the potential that it opens up though. Imagine when OLED has become commoditized the same way LCD has, and you can have an amazing looking budget display for less than 1k? So what would you get with a high-end display? Well, as much as AVS bitches about TVs with smart features, I can see future high-end displays merging with HTPCs (samsung UHD displays already have quad-core processors) and offering high-end gaming and media-center functionality in a single unit. An apple or google branded smart TV with full access to their respective eco-systems (for gaming & media consumption) would be a great way to differentiate budget TVs from high-end TVs... ie. the difference between a cheap tablet vs a ipad air or samsung tab pro. That is of course once PQ is no longer a limiting factor.

Think outside the box a bit more . There is always a better way to do something. And I hope that any manufacturer that sleeps on OLED gets left in the dust.
It does sound perposterous to us, but keep in mind he didn't say that OLED is perfect. He said that manufactures are afraid that OLED is perfect. As you brought out in your last paragraph, what can compete with the PQ of OLED in the future, especially at your mentioned price point? Sure you can incorporate bells and whistles into the high end models but as long as the standard of PQ is simply maintained and not marginally improved upon then the high end models will not sustain the growth that manufactures are dependent on. Using your price points I can see where manufactures should be afraid that OLED is perfection, at least as far as the consumer is concerned. Short of holographic displays it's hard to imagine something else grabbing the attention of the masses.
andy sullivan is offline  
post #625 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 12:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
SiGGy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lenexa, Kansas
Posts: 741
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
I wonder who calibrated this set - my current Sony LCD shows similar errors with white and the upper gamma values when the contrast control is set too high.

Looking over all the results, I would say that it's somewhat disappointing color performance from all of them when you compare that to the last generation of Panasonic plasmas.
Yes, you could probably find scenes which exacerbate the color issues on all of the sets.

But does it really matter... no. I don't really care if something is slightly off in color; as honestly ignorance is bliss.

-SiGGy
SiGGy is offline  
post #626 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 01:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Hisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 364 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
It does sound perposterous to us, but keep in mind he didn't say that OLED is perfect. He said that manufactures are afraid that OLED is perfect. As you brought out in your last paragraph, what can compete with the PQ of OLED in the future, especially at your mentioned price point? Sure you can incorporate bells and whistles into the high end models but as long as the standard of PQ is simply maintained and not marginally improved upon then the high end models will not sustain the growth that manufactures are dependent on. Using your price points I can see where manufactures should be afraid that OLED is perfection, at least as far as the consumer is concerned. Short of holographic displays it's hard to imagine something else grabbing the attention of the masses.
I see your point. Though I think the same thing is already happening with smartphones, for instance. And it's already been that way with PCs for years, in that not much separates the performance & usability between high & low end in those products, except for niche power users & gamers. Eventually you reach a point of commoditization and have to become innovative to set yourself apart.

I see commoditization of OLED as inevitable, and frankly the only way it will survive. You should soon be able to walk into walmart/costco and be able to grab a sub $1000 OLED off-the-shelf. Let the big OEMs figure out a way to differentiate themselves, they'll find a way.
Hisma is online now  
post #627 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
andy sullivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: sun city west AZ
Posts: 3,452
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 312 Post(s)
Liked: 221
I do wonder who those Big OEMS will be five years down the road. Probably LG, maybe Samsung, maybe Vizio. Perhaps Sony if they private label using LG panels and Vizio doing the same thing. Other then that I think a couple of Chinese manufactures using a slightly different process like printing for their OLED panels.
andy sullivan is offline  
post #628 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 03:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,408
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked: 634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And reasonable people could reasonably say this about any display tech in any given year. Nothing unique about OLED.
Actually, there is something unique about OLED. It's the only immature technology (out of two) still being made.

LCD is very mature, very well understood, and very much not bleeding edge.

OLED has essentially no track record in TV. The entire worldwide shipments to date are well under 1 day's worth of LCD shipments.

You can just go ahead and assume it's no different than plasma or anything else. And you can file every single cautionary post under FUD if it helps you reach a purchase decision.

But actual, real-world experience says different. The longevity of Samsung's OLED displays on the Galaxy phones hasn't been special. The earliest of the LGs have exhibited levels of burn-in and/or retention that are nowhere akin to my experience with plasma. Etc.

Does any of that mean LG doesn't have a TV with 5-10 years of trouble-free life in it? Who knows? But I don't. And I dare say you don't either. Not to mention I'm weary of the accusation that the mere raising of this issue is FUD.

There was never a plasma display that leaked gas and needed a refill (to borrow Mark's humorous comment). There has been a report here about an OLED with essentially "spontaneous" dying pixels. I don't see any parallel between those (again, understanding there was a joke there.)

And as for burn-in/retention, clearly my bar is at the level of the 95% or so of us who have had no issues with it. I'm not going to "take precautions" or "be aware of it." In what now amounts to 8 1/2 years of Panasonic plasma use, I've done nothing but use my TV. I have never hard either phenomenon occur. I expect the same from OLED. I'd like to hear reports from AVSers indicating the current state of the LG allow that. Not, "but I make sure to vary content".... Not, "I run the pixel wiper"... Not anything. Just, "I watched 10 letterbox movies this week and there is evidence of any retention".... "I gamed for 5 hours and can't see the HUD at all".

That's a completely reasonable standard, because it's hardly state of the art. A defunct technology offered it for basically the past decade.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #629 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 03:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Well-articulated post, the majority of which I agree with, Ken.

In terms of what I highlighted in bold, I believe we here on AVS probably have an inflated sense of the impact our technical fencing matches here on the Forum have on the wider population of consumers and LGs ability to succeed or fail with this OLED initiative. I doubt anything we say or write about is going to have any meaningful impact on whether LG OLED is doomed or not.

In terms of what I believe will be much more critical to LG WOLEDs future, it comes down to:

A/ it's got to look better on the showroom floor (or at least look as good)

B/ it's got to be competitively priced (either a small premium justified by the perceived superiority or priced equivalently if it appears 'just as good')

C/ once at home, it's got to make the consumer happy, so any perceived defects need to be more than compensated by perceived picture quality superiority versus whatever older TV it is replacing (especially if it cost more).


The debate here on the forum is focused on this third point, and I don't believe it's a matter of spreading FUD and 'suppositions as facts' as much as it is about trying to gauge the risks as to whether LG recently-launched Gen-2 products are likely to make the grade or not.

The products have got to be priced at even less of a premium to LED/LCD (as even LG themselves have acknowledged), they have to be marketed much better than the 55EC9300 is being marketed/displayed by Best Buy right now, and pretty much every LG OLED purchased by joe-average-consumer has to be a keeper.

All of these issues we are talking about, if they are invisible to the average consumer, will not impact LGs chances at success (assuming they address the price premium and marketing gaps). But issues like visible yellow-push, IR, or significant and repeated problems with motion that make the average consumer feel like there is something 'wrong' with the set, can lead to an early demise.

The debate is about assessing whether LG OLED is ready for prime-time or not and the alarmists and naysayers are inconsequential in comparison (in my view :-)

From your exposure to the 55EC9300 at the VE Shootout, you seem to be convinced that LGs WOLED is ready for prime-time - I'm sincerely hoping you are right but aware that it is still early days, so each new user experience is worth digesting carefully.

Those defensive types hoping for OLEDs failure so they can feel even more secure knowing that they have the best TV and that position will not be threatened anytime soon should frankly be put on 'ignore'.
I generally agree fafrd and 100% agree with the bolded out statement. As I said in another post, I've read each and every owner's report and asked some probing questions early on. That gave me a level of 'comfort' since the issues I was hearing were no different than what I've experienced with plasma & CRT. But as always, the wider the sampling of owners, the more reliable the data gets.

And yes, my experience at the shootout most certainly put me over the top when assessing if OLED was right for 'me'. I can't see going with any other tech at this point and that includes the mythical UHD plasma.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #630 of 687 Old 09-02-2014, 03:47 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 24,651
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1425 Post(s)
Liked: 1540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Actually, there is something unique about OLED. It's the only immature technology (out of two) still being made.

LCD is very mature, very well understood, and very much not bleeding edge.

OLED has essentially no track record in TV. The entire worldwide shipments to date are well under 1 day's worth of LCD shipments.

You can just go ahead and assume it's no different than plasma or anything else. And you can file every single cautionary post under FUD if it helps you reach a purchase decision.

But actual, real-world experience says different. The longevity of Samsung's OLED displays on the Galaxy phones hasn't been special. The earliest of the LGs have exhibited levels of burn-in and/or retention that are nowhere akin to my experience with plasma. Etc.

Does any of that mean LG doesn't have a TV with 5-10 years of trouble-free life in it? Who knows? But I don't. And I dare say you don't either. Not to mention I'm weary of the accusation that the mere raising of this issue is FUD.

There was never a plasma display that leaked gas and needed a refill (to borrow Mark's humorous comment). There has been a report here about an OLED with essentially "spontaneous" dying pixels. I don't see any parallel between those (again, understanding there was a joke there.)

And as for burn-in/retention, clearly my bar is at the level of the 95% or so of us who have had no issues with it. I'm not going to "take precautions" or "be aware of it." In what now amounts to 8 1/2 years of Panasonic plasma use, I've done nothing but use my TV. I have never hard either phenomenon occur. I expect the same from OLED. I'd like to hear reports from AVSers indicating the current state of the LG allow that. Not, "but I make sure to vary content".... Not, "I run the pixel wiper"... Not anything. Just, "I watched 10 letterbox movies this week and there is evidence of any retention".... "I gamed for 5 hours and can't see the HUD at all".

That's a completely reasonable standard, because it's hardly state of the art. A defunct technology offered it for basically the past decade.
Mark, I know 'you' don't get IR, burn-in or are bothered by ABL, but you are 100% dead wrong if you think others don't. Absolutely, unequivocally wrong. So you can take the approach 'well it doesn't happen to me, so it's not an issue' if you like, but you'd be wrong. A reading of AVS for any number of plasma panels will show how wrong you actually are. Hell, a visit to any BB that had/has a number of plasmas on display will show how wrong you are. Many many many have seen the same thing.

As for 'spontaneous' dying pixels, being an 'OLED exclusive', again I disagree. I've read these things for years on AVS and they were true for both plasma and LCD. People would post pictures of suddenly dead rows of pixels. Was it a rare occurrence? Most definitely, but it DID happen. Is it rare with OLED? With only 1 report that was even questioned by some, since they felt the owner wanted to return the display anyway (as I said, I've read ALL the owner's reports), I'd say yes, it looks rare too.

As for questionable longevity of Samsung OLEDs, that's Samsung, but here we're talking about a different version of the tech with LG. And since you are referencing your own experience with plasma which, as I claim, runs contrary to some others regarding plasma, I have had a number of Samsung OLED phones and never had one issue with the OLED displays. No burn-in or IR that I've seen. Does that mean that the Samsung phones that are on display at BB and run the same screen from opening to closing won't show IR or burn-in? Of course not! I've seen it myself. But that's not how most use their phones.

I'm sorry, but until it's proven otherwise, the issues look exactly the same as they do with other emissive displays...whether you have experienced them personally or not. We will most definitely agree to disagree on these points. After all, you and I have never agreed on the issues of IR & ABL anyway.

And for the 100th time, I have no problems discussing OLED issues or any other display tech issues, I just like to keep the discussion objective. At times, IMO, I am not seeing that. I myself have questioned MANY owners about their OLED displays. Hell, I was accused of being a troll because of it!! So anyone accusing me of not being objective is utterly clueless. I can easily see both sides of the coin and hopefully everyone else can too.
SiGGy and Weaselboy like this.
Ken Ross is offline  
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Tags
frontpage

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off