Emissive HDTVs Beat Transmissive UHDTVs in Value Electronics 2014 Shootout - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
Still wouldn't change my ZT65 for any of these. I shall wait a bit more....
You own it for less than a year. Would be odd if you already sold it..
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post #242 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore
Like I said I'm not against 2160p I just don't see the point on buying a 2160p TV right now.Picture Quality is my priority and last those extra pixels, I hope that in the next years LCD make improvements in PQ other than just pixels.


For now seem that 2160p OLED is going to be the way to go.
Looks like the above now and soon 2160P OLED might be the thing To many things other than pixel count affect picture quality Only reason mfrs. are pushing 4K is profit margins and unit sales same old business case .
nothing wrong with an f8500 Sammy plasma either unless you have very bright room .


This time admittedly no less out of desperation from (PRC competition @ 1080p ) they (Japan and ROK TV mfrs. ) put the cart before the horse this time nothing much to watch in 4K UHD and besides CATV/SAT and IPTV HD lite still hasn't got 1080p right anyway .

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post #243 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 05:18 PM
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Unfortunately Mr. And Mrs. J6P do not consider the technical capabilities of a TV when they buy one. They are purchasing based on need, a price that fits their really constrained budget, and if it will fit in the old TV cabinet they owned for decades. The reason LCD is the defacto display winner is they are produced in sizes, 30 to 40 inch range, and priced from $500 and below. The two losing display technologies, DLP and Plasma, lost to LCD because they never produced TVs in J6Ps size and price range.
Two major factors has really impacted J6Ps life in the past decade. First ever increasing fuel prices. A decade ago most J6Ps drove large vehicles, pickups, SUVs, mini vans, but were forced to downsize when fuel prices kept rising and is never going back down.
Second is the bursting of the credit bubble in 2008. This put an end to the American slogan Go Big or Go Home that started in the early 80's. J6P has been forced to downsize practically every thing in their life, including TVs, because the biggest asset in their life, a house, is no longer worth the space that it takes up. Also they can no longer get access to credit as the banks really tightened their lending standards.
The new American slogan is If You Go Big Then You Will Go Home. DLP makers thought if they go big they would win market share but they ended up going home. The same with Plasma they thought they needed to go bigger so they are now going home. If OLED thinks it will succeed by going big then that display technology will go home also.
Face it if OLED will have any chance then they will have to produce them in sizes that will fit in J6Ps compact car and sell at a price at Walmart below $500 dollars. J6P does not care about 4k, curved screens, or even 3D as we can see that idea dying away as 3Net folded their tents on the 12th of August. The economy of the past 30 years is not coming back as most American are now locked out of the new economy.


Yes I am into the technical capabilities of displays but realistically I can not fit a TV any larger than 50 to 55 inches in my home. I do not want Smart TVs, 4k TVs, 3D TVs, or curved screen TVs as these things do not make the TV perform to the rec 709 standard. I am also not paying more than $1000 to $2000 for a TV anymore. I am just going to sit on the sidelines with my 8G Kuros and watch all these fad ideas disappear because the average American does not care about them. I am thinking I may purchase a 51 inch F8500 for a back up because I think this will be the end to high quality displays for a long time to come.

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post #244 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:08 PM
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No denying geopolitics have caused a lot of market swings mostly downward for many lately up for a minority so a lot of business (not only C.E. and TV )are targeting the higher margin newly upward mobile premium buyers not a new business case . Majority of J.Q.P. are fine with their sub $1000.00 Visio at WM ,Target and Costco and the B.B. specials .
and their subsidized contract smart phones .

OTOH $500.00 will get you a pretty decent 40" LED arguably in some cases with P.Q. approaching high end larger LED just without a lot of $%% that is best left off anyway

Entry level ~1K Plasma can approach P.Q. of LCD at multiples of their price so in that sense $500 -$1000 HDTV has become more democratic if you will again due to geopolitics favorable to some maybe not so favorable to others along with technology advances . Will be interesting to see if OLED is eventually so democratic if you will.
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post #245 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Looks like the above now and soon 2160P OLED might be the thing To many things other than pixel count affect picture quality Only reason mfrs. are pushing 4K is profit margins and unit sales same old business case .
nothing wrong with an f8500 Sammy plasma either unless you have very bright room .


This time admittedly no less out of desperation from (PRC competition @ 1080p ) they (Japan and ROK TV mfrs. ) put the cart before the horse this time nothing much to watch in 4K UHD and besides CATV/SAT and IPTV HD lite still hasn't got 1080p right anyway .
People keep saying there is nothing wrong with the F8500. Yes there is. It's just too damm small. Going from a even a 70" down to a 65" is like going from a V8 to a V6.
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post #246 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:13 PM
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Here is the dilemma I am sure many others are in.

Are you really ready to make a significant investment in OLED? The tech is still in its infancy for consumer TVs, and there is only one OEM in town for it. Because of this, you're having to pay that "R&D" cost, to be an earlier adopter in a tech that hasn't fully matured yet.

Yes, you're getting the best contrast, and excellent all-around PQ. What appeals to me most about OLED is it excels in ALL viewing environments, unlike plasma. But it's at a significant cost.

How many people realistically have a budget for a $10,000 TV? I'm talking about the 65" EC9700 coming up. As someone who owns a 65" TV, I am NOT willing to sacrifice screen real estate for PQ improvements. I'm too used to being immersed in my larger set to go backwards.

So if we're talking about buying a new TV TODAY, it leaves essentially 4 options (imo):

1. Buy a F8500. You can snag one for a decent price still, but pretty soon they will be hard to come by as samsung ceases to produce them. If you're big into viewing in the dark, this is a good option. But it's 1080p only, and if you have a well lit living room and appreciate bright color, sorry, it's not ideal.
2. Buy a high-end LCD. You get a fantastic picture for day-time and well lit viewing, a proven technology that in most cases will last many years without fault. You also get 4K, which makes you future-proof. You sacrifice viewing angle and black level in really dark settings.
3. Buy a cheap LCD or plasma as a holdover. This is a good option if you absolutely must have OLED. But how long will it take until prices come down to reasonable levels, and are you willing to "suffer" with poor PQ to save the money? Affordable large OLED displays could still be years away.
4. Buy an OLED. Take the plunge. If you've got deep pockets this is an easy choice. But how will it feel when the next generation is significantly improved, and that $10,000 TV already looks dated next to the new and improved OLED?

In my opinion, it's an awkward time to buy a new TV, since we're in the midst of such a transition. Hate LCD all you want, but it's mature, looks great in MOST viewing environments (at the right angle), and will most likely last many years without a problem. I wouldn't feel comfortable buying OLED today, a) because of cost, and b) because of the fact that it still has a few generations of improvements to go before it's reached near it's peak potential. I chose option 2), since I still feel like it will be another year or two before large OLED displays are considered affordable.

By affordable, I should be able to snag a 65" FLAGSHIP OLED display for $5000 or less. To me, that's the sweet spot, and something I'd happily open my wallet for if it came down to it.

There is no obvious choice though, as to me they all come with caveats. So many people here make it sound as though you should either own a plasma or an OLED, but for the reasons I listed, it's not that simple of a decision.

And knowing everything I know about how my TV performed post shoot-out, I'm still very happy with the decision I made .

This is a thoughtful and accurate post - thanks for taking the time.

This is exactly as I see things, with a couple corrections:

A) the 65" 4K 65EC9700 already has pre-release street pricing of $6250. There is a good chance it will be available for prices approaching $5000 by year-end, so the sweet-spot you have referred to is likely to be here much sooner than you think. The 77" is likely to be priced at the $10K level you are discussing, but it appears that LG is being appropriately aggressive with the 65" model (at least here in the US).

B) I also believed I would never sacrifice 10" of screen real-estate for the PQ of OLED, but now that I have seen the 55EC9300 first-hand, that is not a decision to be made so lightly - that was the best TV I have ever seen and it only costs $3500 (and probably $3000 by year-end).

So the current 'state of play' for my situation is the following:

1. LG 6EC9700 OLED for $6250 - need to hold off to see if it delivers as hoped

2. Vizio 65" Reference Series - a wild card (which may never materialize) but will likely be priced around $3500 and may be the best LED/LCD TV ever made.

3. LG 55EC9300 for $3500 - once this is priced equivalently to the Samsung plasma, that will be a tough call

4. Samsung UN64F8500 plasma for $3100 - a pretty decent baseline

5. Vizio 65" (or 70") P Series - available soon for $2200 (or $2600) - likely not a bad choice for your option 3 above: 'buy a cheap LCD holdover'

6. Vizio 65" (or 70") M Series - $1500 (or $1900) - an even more economical choice for your option 3.

You started off saying a TV for TODAY, and that means only the 55EC9300 or the UN64F8500 or the Vizio M and after what I saw today, I would probably be inclined to go for the 55EC9300 as soon as enough new user reviews are in to know the coast is clear.

But I'll be holding off for a new TV THIS YEAR, which means I'll be waiting for the 65EC9700, the Vizio P Series, and with any luck the Vizio R Series as well and if they all materialize will likely be deciding between the 65EC9700 or the Vizio 65" R Series for probably half the price (but more interested to see what the WOLED is capable of at the moment :-).
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post #247 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
People keep saying there is nothing wrong with the F8500. Yes there is. It's just too damm small. Going from a even a 70" down to a 65" is like going from a V8 to a V6.
They have V6's making well over 400 hp now

Arguably the Sammy 64f8500 has much better picture quality under a lot of not unreasonable conditions than any of the 70" LCD the majority of which use not so hot LGD IPS or not so hot Sharp ASV panels and sometimes a lot of costly added H.A. junk to make them look half way decent.

60 "- 65" LCD has much better and more numerous panel options you can get an excellent LCD at those sizes 70" maybe not so much due to only one or 2 maybe 3 panel options with 2 of them severely crippled out of the gate and the 3rd Samsung panel option probably OK . Given the choice I would take the 64f8500 PDP or a good 60-65" LCD in a heartbeat !

AFAIK there are 13 4K UHD 65"LCD panels in production right now from Samsung, AUO,Innolux and one each from LGD and Sharp .

I have a Plasma and 5 LCD I like both kind in the appropriate room . ofc affordable OLED is coming also .

Thing about plasma is...........,If you know you know if you don't you don't ☺☺!

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post #248 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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People keep saying there is nothing wrong with the F8500. Yes there is. It's just too damm small. Going from a even a 70" down to a 65" is like going from a V8 to a V6.
I thought it was the difference between sitting up and reclining in a chair.

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post #249 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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The 77" is likely to be priced at the $10K level you are discussing, but it appears that LG is being appropriately aggressive with the 65" model (at least here in the US).
Fafrd, tea leaves or did you see or hear something that makes you think this?
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post #250 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:56 PM
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I thought it was the difference between sitting up and reclining in a chair.
Snide. Cute but snide.
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post #251 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 06:58 PM
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I'm not going to keep feeding this topic about this extra pixels ,this is my last post about this here.
Feeding it? Actually you kind of resurrected it.

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And to clear that up here is Scott Wilkinson post:


Many people ask me if they should buy a UHD/4K TV now, and my answer is usually, "No, wait for the standards to be finalized and for TVs and content to implement those standards." That is still my advice if you buy a new TV infrequently—say, every 5-10 years. If you buy a UHD/4K TV now, it probably won't be able to display the higher dynamic range and wider color gamut in the content that's coming a couple of years from now—and in a side-by-side comparison between today's UHD/4K content and that future content on a compatible display, the differences will NOT be subtle, I can assure you.
Yeah, to clear up Scott's post, he also said this...which you seemed to have conveniently missed.

"On the other hand, if you buy a new TV every couple of years, getting a UHD/4K model now might make sense. They tend to be premium models with top-notch performance, so if you have the dough, you'll get the best picture quality available today, especially with a high-quality upscaler, either in the TV or external. Yes, these sets are more expensive than comparably sized HDTVs, but prices are dropping fast."

But either way, 'fair & balanced' or not, this is simply one opinion.
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post #252 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 07:39 PM
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Fafrd, tea leaves or did you see or hear something that makes you think this?

It was tea leaves, sorry.

I posted more detail in another thread but will repeat here.

LG has been very aggressive with introductory pricing on both the 55EC9300 ($3500) and the 65EC9700 ($6250 street) and the only reason I would see them breaking that trend is because there is some production problem with the 77EC9800 and they don't really want to ell any of them until they have the kinks worked out (kind of like the 105" Samsung for $120,000 :-)

'You get one chance to make a first impression' and so far, LG seems to understand that fact for the 'true' launch of OLED to consumers this year (last year was a trial-run).

Without getting hung up on yields, a full M2 production sheet makes 6 raw 55EC9300's-worth of panels, or $21,000s-worth of product; 3 raw 65EC9700's-worth of panels, or $18,750s-worth of product, and 2 raw 77EC9800's worth of panels which would have a product value of $19,000-20,000 if the 77EC9800 was priced at $9500-10,000.

Whatever money LG is making or losing with the 55EC9300 priced at $3500 or with the 65EC9700 priced at $6250, they can make or lose an equivalent amount of money selling the 77EC9800 for under $10,000 (barring any 77EC9800-specific production issues).

LGs seems to understand that they have to get mindshare this year and has priced accordingly so far, so I am hopeful that the trend will continue with the 77EC9800 and that pre-release pricing will catch all of us by surprise (as did pricing on the 55EC9300 and the 65EC9700 :-)

So no, I have not seen or heard anything, but I have thought about the tealeaves of 55EC9300 and 65EC9700 pricing and I like what they may say about pricing on the 77EC9800...

So I suppose my 'tea-leaf-based' prediction is for pre-release pricing on the 77EC9800 of $9999!
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post #253 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 07:40 PM
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Well what I can expect from someone that found a new exciting hobby ... like shooting homemade 4k videos.








The shootout talk by itself .
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post #254 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
You own it for less than a year. Would be odd if you already sold it..
Even if he had it for 5 years, it would be still odd to sell it. Why sell the best TV ever (even today until OLED is truly ready someday). Similarly to people holding on to their Kuros for how many years already... Why replace it until there is truly something better out there...
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post #255 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 11:10 PM
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I do not agree with that. Buying a five year old TV with Manufacturer being gone is way to risky. You might as well give that KURO money to me Aside from that according Pioneer it is normal that all blacks will turn red. So no OLED and no KURO. Instead buy yourself a VT60/ZT60 or F8500 if you want the best right now.. the UK and US Shootouts results confirm this..
Not normal.

Incorrect voltages/settings applied at factory.
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post #256 of 683 Old 08-22-2014, 11:48 PM
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1) I cannot imagine giving up any inches from my existing TV for any reason. I suspect most everyone is in the same boat. Don't do it.

2) I am struggling to understand why fafrd believes the 77-inch LG OLED will be $10,000 by year end. It seems like it will be introduced at a list price of much, much more than that. That's awfully aggressive discounting.

3) I will say that we've come a long, long way that a "holy grail" like the 77-inch OLED is happening. When it does, indeed, cross below $10K it will be comparable in price to what many of us paid for our first plasmas around the start of the millennium (when adjusting for inflation).

Anecdotally, I was once contemplating an earlier Panasonic 65-inch for $9000 before eventually buying it for ~$3000. It's nice to think of OLED following the same kind of pricing curves over the next several years.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #257 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post
Even if he had it for 5 years, it would be still odd to sell it. Why sell the best TV ever (even today until OLED is truly ready someday). Similarly to people holding on to their Kuros for how many years already... Why replace it until there is truly something better out there...
OLED will be ready five years from now.

In five years from now it would be odd not to sell

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post #258 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 05:04 AM
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Not normal.

Incorrect voltages/settings applied at factory.
Actually the red tint can not be undone..
Official Pioneer Kuro Reddish Tint Problem Thread
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post #259 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 05:58 AM
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They have V6's making well over 400 hp now
Totally OT, but what stock V6 makes well over 400hp?

I know of the F150 and the.CTS, both turbo but not well over 400hp. Anyway PM me the cars you know. Or are coming... Lots of modified inline 6's and flat 6's that produce over 400hp though

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post #260 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 06:42 AM
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I just watched the flat OLED at.Harrods in London and the motion was terrible. I don't think I could live with that watching sports. The price they want for t over here is insane too.
Hey I was at Harrods yesterday ! You have to admit they have a great display of sets. Did you check out the European TV section ? If you think OLED is expensive check out the B & O's and Loewe's !
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post #261 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 07:36 AM
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Back to the Future

It would be interesting what tv sets could be in market today if Pioneer had not exit the plasma business back in 2010...
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post #262 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 07:51 AM
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There's no true high quality 4K content. Either way the results would of been the same. 8 million pixels is not going to mask LCD's many bad characteristics with PQ.
That's not quite accurate. Robert Zohn said that he was able to secure UHD servers from both Sony and Samsung, modified to add extra HDMI outputs, and to allow them to output 2160p/60 content to all of the UHD sets present.

These are, curiously enough, the same servers that are made available to the public.
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post #263 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Totally OT, but what stock V6 makes well over 400hp?

I know of the F150 and the.CTS, both turbo but not well over 400hp. Anyway PM me the cars you know. Or are coming... Lots of modified inline 6's and flat 6's that produce over 400hp though
GM has 2 twin turbo @ ~ 420 + Hp for the Caddies also Ford Taurus option and Police special Taurus and Exploder have 420HP + V6 . Dont forget the 2014 Nissan GT-R, 545 HP Horsepower V6 . So you don't think Nissan GTR 545 hpV6 is well
over 400hp ? ,there are a few others lesser known , you need to get out more , no can do on PM nothing to stop you from looking it up yourself however .
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post #264 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:21 AM
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Well what I can expect from someone that found a new exciting hobby ... like shooting homemade 4k videos.
Well if shooting 4K videos qualifies me as someone who believes in telling the entire story and not pieces of it, then I plead 'guilty as charged'.
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post #265 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post
Even if he had it for 5 years, it would be still odd to sell it. Why sell the best TV ever (even today until OLED is truly ready someday). Similarly to people holding on to their Kuros for how many years already... Why replace it until there is truly something better out there...
And that becomes an entirely subjective opinion. 'Something better' may have already been out there for the last couple of years for some and for others, it's still not there.
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post #266 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
GM has 2 twin turbo @ ~ 420 + Hp for the Caddies also Ford Taurus option and Police special Taurus and Exploder have 420HP + V6 . Dont forget the 2014 Nissan GT-R, 545 HP Horsepower V6 . So you don't think Nissan GTR 545 hpV6 is well
over 400hp ? ,there are a few others , you need to get out more , no can do on PM nothing to stop you from looking it up yourself however .
Huh, cool. I love cars why I asked.... Yes familiar with GTR, I had thought it was an inline 6 still though. Thanks for info and showing how much of an ass you can be. I only asked for PM as this isn't a car forum.

So ya, cool. One v6 well over 400hp. I was thinking there would be more I missed. Have a good one.

P.s. CTS = Cadillac in my first post.

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 08-23-2014 at 08:40 AM.
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post #267 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:43 AM
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People keep saying there is nothing wrong with the F8500. Yes there is. It's just too damm small. Going from a even a 70" down to a 65" is like going from a V8 to a V6.
Agree with this 100%. Despite all of the parameters evaluated in the shootout, the variable that seems to be one of the most important to many people but seemed to be minimized by the panel is size. Ask your friends if they would rather watch the game or a movie on a 55" TV that is absolutely black in an unlit room, or on a 85" TV with very good PQ.
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post #268 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:43 AM
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1) I cannot imagine giving up any inches from my existing TV for any reason. I suspect most everyone is in the same boat. Don't do it.

2) I am struggling to understand why fafrd believes the 77-inch LG OLED will be $10,000 by year end. It seems like it will be introduced at a list price of much, much more than that. That's awfully aggressive discounting.

3) I will say that we've come a long, long way that a "holy grail" like the 77-inch OLED is happening. When it does, indeed, cross below $10K it will be comparable in price to what many of us paid for our first plasmas around the start of the millennium (when adjusting for inflation).

Anecdotally, I was once contemplating an earlier Panasonic 65-inch for $9000 before eventually buying it for ~$3000. It's nice to think of OLED following the same kind of pricing curves over the next several years.
Unfortunately I tend to agree with your assessment...but I like fafrd's optimism a whole lot better.
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post #269 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Huh, cool. I love cars why I asked.... Yes familiar with GTR, I had thought it was an inline 6 still though. Thanks for info and showing how much of an ass you can be. I only asked for PM as this isn't a car forum.

So ya, cool. One v6 well over 400hp. I was thinking there would be more I missed. Have a good one.

P.s. CTS = Cadillac in my first post.
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Originally Posted by SiGGy
P.s. CTS = Cadillac in my first post.
No........... you know what

later

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -
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post #270 of 683 Old 08-23-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
OLED will be ready five years from now.

In five years from now it would be odd not to sell
Ha ha, sure, in five years we can have this conversation again and will likely all be heading to pick up our OLED set I sure hope so... Although even then, it may be worth keeping a VT/ZT simply for "historical" purposes, as having the last great plasma ever made
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