Any chance the LG 55EF9500 will be under $2K - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Any chance the LG 55EF9500 will be under $2K

I've been in the market for a 4k HDTV and was waiting till CES to see if something new met my criteria and the 55EF9500 does

OLED
4K
Passive 3D
55 inch HDTV

So given the trends and the prices from last year is their any chance this HDTV will be under 2K? Most of the LCD 4K HDTV's in this size range will be under 2K but I really want OLED.
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post #2 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
I've been in the market for a 4k HDTV and was waiting till CES to see if something new met my criteria and the 55EF9500 does

OLED
4K
Passive 3D
55 inch HDTV

So given the trends and the prices from last year is their any chance this HDTV will be under 2K? Most of the LCD 4K HDTV's in this size range will be under 2K but I really want OLED.
If it's 2 grand I'll buy one for sure.


EDIT: Assuming is has similar input lag to last years model and supports Chroma 4:4:4

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post #3 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Seeing as it's flat and not near the biggest model in the lineup I got my fingers crossed for it somehow being under $2K.

Even if it's alot more I'm glad to see an OLED come out that meets all my needs, I'll probably have to wait a bit for the price to drop.
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post #4 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 12:12 PM
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At best I think we will get pricing close to Samsung's flagship. The 55" HU9000 is $3200 - street pricing is lower though so of course we could see it drop in time, but I don't think the initial pricing will be below that.
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post #5 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 12:16 PM
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The 77" is $25k and the 55" curved *1080P* OLED is $3500, so a 55" Flat 4K OLED for less then $2K is far fetched. Would be lovely if it was. I'm expecting closer to $5K. My jaw (along with Samsungs jaw) would hit the floor if they price it under 3.5K.

Rumor I read has them coming out in March, so we'll know soon . Assuming that March is correct.
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post #6 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 03:14 PM
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Considering how fast display prices dropped initially I expect something like $2500 to $2700 street initially. They'll dip into low 2's by November.

LG needs this to be successful. They want this to be consumer level tech. At some point, I'd say, high volume at low margin will be more important than low volume at high margin. $12K sets are all nice and fine but they are not remotely approachable for a consumer brand. These aren't Runco OLEDs . For 2015 just breaking even on each set is a win.

But what do I know?

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post #7 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep if the price falls to 2k this year I'll jump on it. Any concerns about hdcp 2.2 or rec 2020? Seems tv that fully support this are more than a year out.
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post #8 of 63 Old 01-08-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
Yep if the price falls to 2k this year I'll jump on it. Any concerns about hdcp 2.2 or rec 2020? Seems tv that fully support this are more than a year out.
If its $2k to $3k for the 55", I would pop on it for sure. I will pass at any price if its not 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2. That's going to be needed for native 4K content from BluRay HD and DirecTV / DISH. Color gamuts, meh, not too worried about that.
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post #9 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post
If its $2k to $3k for the 55", I would pop on it for sure. I will pass at any price if its not 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2. That's going to be needed for native 4K content from BluRay HD and DirecTV / DISH. Color gamuts, meh, not too worried about that.
In reading some other threads it seems like their is a good chance these OLED's will not do the 18GBPS HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, something about the HDMI boards coming in to late for these HDTV's.

If that is the case should we just wait for next years model?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
In reading some other threads it seems like their is a good chance these OLED's will not do the 18GBPS HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, something about the HDMI boards coming in to late for these HDTV's.

If that is the case should we just wait for next years model?
If that's the case then I will wait for 2016.
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post #11 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
In reading some other threads it seems like their is a good chance these OLED's will not do the 18GBPS HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, something about the HDMI boards coming in to late for these HDTV's.

If that is the case should we just wait for next years model?
I wouldn't spend $3K - $5K+ on anything that's going to be obsolete in 6 months. I wouldn't even spend $1K .
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post #12 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Hope we get it cleared up soon, would be a shame if these sets were obsolete before they even came out.
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post #13 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 08:43 AM
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Hope we get it cleared up soon, would be a shame if these sets were obsolete before they even came out.
On the 77" model, they have the tech specs up and say that 1 (of 4) HDMI input supports HDCP 2.2, but they don't say if its 18Gbps, which probably means that it isn't.


On the 55" model, the only thing they say is that it'll do 4K 60Fps. But they don't really have the specs out yet.
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post #14 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 10:47 AM
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I would expect the 55" to be <$5k (and maybe even as low as the current 1080p set) and the flat (I don't care about curved) 65" to be >$5k (but hopefully not more than $7k). The 77" is nice but more of pipe-dream at this point.

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post #15 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 11:15 AM
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If you're waiting to pull the trigger on an OLED because it's not 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 compliant, then you really are an early adopter and should wait until they meet those specs.

I'd settle for a 65" 1080P OLED but that's not the direction LG is going. Everything is about the buzz - - 4K and HDR. Nevermind that there is very, very little content available and won't be for a long time.

Direct 4K offerings will be limited to "Pay Per View" movies. And it will be interesting to hear the feedback of 4K owners with Directv on 4K PQ and soundtrack. Will it be watered down 4K?

How many 4K movies does DIRECTV have?


(From Directv's web site) The number of 4K movies varies from week to week, but there are always at least two 4K movies available to watch instantly. To enjoy them, you must first turn on the Genie Recommends feature on your TV.

Honestly, there will be no broadcast TV or even Cable/Satellite TV with 4K/HDR capability for years to come. How many years? Three (minimum) to five (probable). And the conversion will not be as simple and straight forward (and as strong a business case) as with SD to HD.

And if you upgrade your TV in a five year cycle, you'll have much better offerings with appreciable content the later you buy within this time frame.

The real dilemma is for folks who need to replace their big screen TV's now. Do I future proof my set? (If possible?) How much bang can I get for my buck?

If I were in the market today for a 65" (more like 70" or 75") - I'd by the best 1080P set I could find. And I'd minimize the cost.

Lack of 4K/UHD/HDR content and lack of evolving standards need to be factored in to your current buying criteria.

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For those of us who despise LCD, the choices are even more difficult (and expensive).
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post #17 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swanlee View Post
I've been in the market for a 4k HDTV and was waiting till CES to see if something new met my criteria and the 55EF9500 does

OLED
4K
Passive 3D
55 inch HDTV

So given the trends and the prices from last year is their any chance this HDTV will be under 2K? Most of the LCD 4K HDTV's in this size range will be under 2K but I really want OLED.
Swanlee,

I'm always interested in learning how people plan to use their 4K/UHD TVs/Monitors. What about you? What are you planning on doing with it once you get it home?

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post #18 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm just a normal user who wants to be ahead as much as possible of the tech curve. I'm preparing for when more 4K content will be around more and want to enjoy the benefits of superior OLED PQ. I do not want to get a 1080P OLED since a 4K model is within reach and while my current 1080P LG LCD is fine I've had it since 2011 and could move it to the basement and honestly I'm just itching for something new with better PQ.

I tend to be an early adopter in almost anything technical but only when it makes sense from a longevity and price stand point. Their usually is a sweet spot when the technology is finished and the price is at an acceptable point for me to jump in early.

Typical use would be Xbox one video games, Cable TV, Blu-Ray, Netflix etc.

I would also upgrade my BLU-Ray player when Oppo puts out a 4k blu-ray player that plays the new 4K discs.

So I can wait another year but if a 55 inch OLED 4K HDTV came out that supports HDMI 2.0+ HDCP 2.2 and 18GBPS and was around 2K I'd jump in as that would be the point where the TV would have some longevity.

I don't want to upgrade to LCD 4K or 1080P OLED as that would be a small stop gap and not serve me well in the long run.

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post #19 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 12:01 PM
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If you're waiting to pull the trigger on an OLED because it's not 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 compliant, then you really are an early adopter and should wait until they meet those specs.
I'll assume you meant, you *aren't* an early adopter. Me, personally, I'd consider myself a person who likes to buy stuff pretty early on, I'm not the type to buy a gen or two back to save a few $$$. That being said, I'm not going to early adopt something that is *GUARANTEED* to be obsolete within a year and is not going to meet my needs long term. A large TV is a PITA to get rid of, so I usually keep them longer then 5 yrs.

Something small like a BluRay player or an iPhone, thats easy to get rid of and sell on eBay, yeah, I'll buy those kinds of things on Day 0.

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I'd settle for a 65" 1080P OLED but that's not the direction LG is going. Everything is about the buzz - - 4K and HDR. Nevermind that there is very, very little content available and won't be for a long time.

Honestly, there will be no broadcast TV or even Cable/Satellite TV with 4K/HDR capability for years to come. How many years? Three (minimum) to five (probable). And the conversion will not be as simple and straight forward (and as strong a business case) as with SD to HD.
Years?? LOL. You must not be paying attention .

Dish announced the 4K Joey @ CES and expects a summer release.

DirecTV rumors are saying Feb / March / April for 4K Genie news & they just launched a new sat (D14) and D15 is on the way with the intention of providing 4K content.

There were 1 or 2 prototype 4K BluRay players @ CES. Those are expected to be on the shelf by XMas.

4K OTA? Well, Ok, thats probably 5 to 10 yrs, if ever... They *are* working on the standard (ATSC 3.0), but its a long way off.

They do kind of need a technological / bandwidth breakthrough if they are going to go full blown 4K all around.
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I'll assume you meant, you *aren't* an early adopter. Me, personally, I'd consider myself a person who likes to buy stuff pretty early on, I'm not the type to buy a gen or two back to save a few $$$. That being said, I'm not going to early adopt something that is *GUARANTEED* to be obsolete within a year and is not going to meet my needs long term. A large TV is a PITA to get rid of, so I usually keep them longer then 5 yrs.

Something small like a BluRay player or an iPhone, thats easy to get rid of and sell on eBay, yeah, I'll buy those kinds of things on Day 0.



Years?? LOL. You must not be paying attention .

Dish announced the 4K Joey @ CES and expects a summer release.

DirecTV rumors are saying Feb / March / April for 4K Genie news & they just launched a new sat (D14) and D15 is on the way with the intention of providing 4K content.

There were 1 or 2 prototype 4K BluRay players @ CES. Those are expected to be on the shelf by XMas.

4K OTA? Well, Ok, thats probably 5 to 10 yrs, if ever... They *are* working on the standard (ATSC 3.0), but its a long way off.

They do kind of need a technological / bandwidth breakthrough if they are going to go full blown 4K all around.
Yeah, worrying about 4K "broadcasting" in the traditional sense is dumb. In 5-10 years cable will be in the past for enthusiasts and maybe even a large portion of the mainstream. TV over the internet is the future and that's where 4k has started and it's where it will grow the fastest. OTA will stick around because it's good to have that available and not be fully dependent on internet infrastructure.

2015 will mark a huge turning point in the shift away from cable. HBO Go, Sling TV and the fact that the TV market is moving MUCH faster than cable will be able to. The shift from SD to HD was slow as molasses as we all waited around for cable, but the shift from HD to 4k is happening super fast because of the internet.

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post #21 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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No I'm an early adopter, and I jump on usually pretty quick when it makes sense. I'd have a 4K HDTV by now but it didn't really make sense until something came along that supported the future HDMI/HDCP requirements and the lack of content really didn't make it worthwhile.

I usually gamble when buying early but when something is as obvious as needing HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 to make the TV have any form of longevity then even I'll wait it out.
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post #22 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 01:32 PM
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I do not believe that 4K content over the Internet is going to replace cable or satellite. Too many bandwidth and cost issues.

Millenials and the even younger generation do not want to pay ANYTHING for TV. 4K will not be a "ride along" with your $29.95 monthly Internet fee.

There are three things that will greatly slow down 4K/HDR - content, content, content.

Once the industry decided HD was the route to go - - it happened very fast. There are not the bandwidth and technology limitations that you have with 4K. After I purchased my first HD TV (CRT!) - it took two to three years before cable & satellite had a complete package available with appreciable programming.

Let's phrase it this way - - how long will it take to have what I have now - - Directv (Premier Package, NFL Ticket) - - with the majority of the channels in 4K?

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Yeah, worrying about 4K "broadcasting" in the traditional sense is dumb. In 5-10 years cable will be in the past for enthusiasts and maybe even a large portion of the mainstream. TV over the internet is the future and that's where 4k has started and it's where it will grow the fastest. OTA will stick around because it's good to have that available and not be fully dependent on internet infrastructure.

2015 will mark a huge turning point in the shift away from cable. HBO Go, Sling TV and the fact that the TV market is moving MUCH faster than cable will be able to. The shift from SD to HD was slow as molasses as we all waited around for cable, but the shift from HD to 4k is happening super fast because of the internet.
I don't know that TV over the internet will be as big as you think (at least not anytime soon).

a) lots of people don't have the internet bandwidth to do it, not to mention with 2 or 3 4K streams going at the same time
b) people don't want to wait 15+ mins for buffering
c) getting all your TV from the internet will be WAY more expensive (fast enough ISP + netflix + amazon + HBO + this + that)... it'll add up. A few of the internet streaming channels that I've heard about are like $10+ / month.
d) people don't want to watch TV on thier computers
e) lots of locality / local rights issues

And last but not least, I'm not in the TV industry, so I couldn't say for sure, but I am in the IT industry and I can tell you that to set up a web site that is capable of handling millions of simultaneous streams (of 4K none the less) would require a *huge* investment in hardware and a monthly ISP bill. I'd think it would cost less to upgrade your entire station to 4K then it would be to build out an internet site like that.

I mean, how much could a 4K camera and the supporting equipment cost? A few million tops? You'd spend way more then that on computer hardware and your ISP bill.

I remember reading an article last year where one of the big porn sites talked about thier IT infrastructure. I forget the exact number, but it was something crazy like several TB/sec @ peak and that is avg quality flash video.

Just as an example, while you can build a hella good PC for $1000 to $2000, an enterprise class beefy web server that is capable of handling lots of connections is like $50K to $100K. We just bought a SQL box and I'm told they are around $50K each and we're going to need quite a few more and we certainly aren't Google. We just need to handle about 500 to 1000 requests / min.
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post #24 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 01:56 PM
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Let's phrase it this way - - how long will it take to have what I have now - - Directv (Premier Package, NFL Ticket) - - with the majority of the channels in 4K?
Major nets (national feeds) & ESPN? Probably in 1 - 2 yrs. Full 4K package like we have with HD now? That'll take some technological breakthroughs I'm afraid. 4K with H.265 is still 2x the bandwidth of 1080i with MPEG4 in the best case.

One technological breakthrough I'm hoping gets out of the lab is OAMM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital...m_multiplexing). If that can scale reliably to sats, we'd have essentially "unlimited" bandwidth and all the worlds problems would be solved. Peace and love would run rampant through out the world.

In the lab right now, they are getting 100 Tb/sec with OAMM.
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I don't know that TV over the internet will be as big as you think (at least not anytime soon).

a) lots of people don't have the internet bandwidth to do it, not to mention with 2 or 3 4K streams going at the same time
b) people don't want to wait 15+ mins for buffering
c) getting all your TV from the internet will be WAY more expensive (fast enough ISP + netflix + amazon + HBO + this + that)... it'll add up. A few of the internet streaming channels that I've heard about are like $10+ / month.
d) people don't want to watch TV on thier computers
e) lots of locality / local rights issues

And last but not least, I'm not in the TV industry, so I couldn't say for sure, but I am in the IT industry and I can tell you that to set up a web site that is capable of handling millions of simultaneous streams (of 4K none the less) would require a *huge* investment in hardware and a monthly ISP bill. I'd think it would cost less to upgrade your entire station to 4K then it would be to build out an internet site like that.

I mean, how much could a 4K camera and the supporting equipment cost? A few million tops? You'd spend way more then that on computer hardware and your ISP bill.

I remember reading an article last year where one of the big porn sites talked about thier IT infrastructure. I forget the exact number, but it was something crazy like several TB/sec @ peak and that is avg quality flash video.

Just as an example, while you can build a hella good PC for $1000 to $2000, an enterprise class beefy web server that is capable of handling lots of connections is like $50K to $100K. We just bought a SQL box and I'm told they are around $50K each and we're going to need quite a few more and we certainly aren't Google. We just need to handle about 500 to 1000 requests / min.
I mean this with all due respect, but your post sounds like something that would have been written in 2005. I don't even know how to address it, almost everything you said is based on obsolete information. I'll do my best:

- Lots of people don't have bandwidth? Lots of people do. And the FCC is likely to categorize the internet as a utility next month.
- 15 minute buffering? Not since the 90s.
- More expensive than cable? Maybe if you buy every service in existence... But for most people it costs far less than cable.
- Watching TV on your computer? Roku, Android TV, Apple TV, Fire TV, Xbox, Playstation, HTPCs, Blu Ray players, Smart TV platforms (from ALL manufacturers)...
- Rights issues? These are being chipped away at, hence my original comments regarding this. This year brings ESPN, TBS, TNT and others to internet-only customers (via Sling TV by Dish), Hulu Plus, HBO Go is going independent this year... and Netflix, Youtube, and Amazon Instant are THE leaders of 4K content.

And you're talking about the cost of servers as if there aren't already businesses offering this type of service tens of millions of people in the US. Netflix, Amazon Instant, Youtube, Vudu, Hulu Plus, Crackle, Popcorn Flix and COUNTLESS others. Not to mention services like Steam that let you download games at full bandwidth any time you want or other services like Playstation TV offering game STREAMING in real-time to your TV/device (and other services like this are already live, I forget the names though).

The times have changed my man!
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post #26 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 02:17 PM
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If the FCC mandates net neutrality you will see most companies stop investing in their networks.

Why make it easier for your competitors to use your own network?

Instead, companies like AT&T, Comcast and telcos will invest elsewhere.

(Thinks about it - if you're Comcast, it makes more sense to go back to spending more on your cable TV side if Netflix can saturate your network's bandwidth for nothing.)
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In the event that happens, I guess it's one reason to hope that Google continues onward and upward with its fiber expansion.
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post #28 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktownhero View Post
I mean this with all due respect, but your post sounds like something that would have been written in 2005. I don't even know how to address it, almost everything you said is based on obsolete information. I'll do my best:

- Lots of people don't have bandwidth? Lots of people do. And the FCC is likely to categorize the internet as a utility next month.
- 15 minute buffering? Not since the 90s.
- More expensive than cable? Maybe if you buy every service in existence... But for most people it costs far less than cable.
- Watching TV on your computer? Roku, Android TV, Apple TV, Fire TV, Xbox, Playstation, HTPCs, Blu Ray players, Smart TV platforms (from ALL manufacturers)...
- Rights issues? These are being chipped away at, hence my original comments regarding this. This year brings ESPN, TBS, TNT and others to internet-only customers (via Sling TV by Dish), Hulu Plus, HBO Go is going independent this year... and Netflix, Youtube, and Amazon Instant are THE leaders of 4K content.

And you're talking about the cost of servers as if there aren't already businesses offering this type of service tens of millions of people in the US. Netflix, Amazon Instant, Youtube, Vudu, Hulu Plus, Crackle, Popcorn Flix and COUNTLESS others. Not to mention services like Steam that let you download games at full bandwidth any time you want or other services like Playstation TV offering game STREAMING in real-time to your TV/device (and other services like this are already live, I forget the names though).

The times have changed my man!
Not really...

The parts I don't like about the internet streaming are quality and speed. Quality are not always guaranteed. Usually in peak hours, (I have Verizon Fios 50/50) streaming shows buffer and play low quality. With cable, is always instant with no loss quality.

Services and costs can vary depend where you are located but for me, cable is still better option vs streaming.

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post #29 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktownhero View Post
I mean this with all due respect, but your post sounds like something that would have been written in 2005. I don't even know how to address it, almost everything you said is based on obsolete information. I'll do my best:

- Lots of people don't have bandwidth? Lots of people do. And the FCC is likely to categorize the internet as a utility next month.
- 15 minute buffering? Not since the 90s.
- More expensive than cable? Maybe if you buy every service in existence... But for most people it costs far less than cable.
- Watching TV on your computer? Roku, Android TV, Apple TV, Fire TV, Xbox, Playstation, HTPCs, Blu Ray players, Smart TV platforms (from ALL manufacturers)...
- Rights issues? These are being chipped away at, hence my original comments regarding this. This year brings ESPN, TBS, TNT and others to internet-only customers (via Sling TV by Dish), Hulu Plus, HBO Go is going independent this year... and Netflix, Youtube, and Amazon Instant are THE leaders of 4K content.

And you're talking about the cost of servers as if there aren't already businesses offering this type of service tens of millions of people in the US. Netflix, Amazon Instant, Youtube, Vudu, Hulu Plus, Crackle, Popcorn Flix and COUNTLESS others. Not to mention services like Steam that let you download games at full bandwidth any time you want or other services like Playstation TV offering game STREAMING in real-time to your TV/device (and other services like this are already live, I forget the names though).

The times have changed my man!
2005? LOL... no offense man, but you really need to come down out of your ivory tower. Avg US internet connection is not even 15Mbps. Here are some stats from Q1 2014 (http://www.broadviewnet.com/blog/201...-by-state-map/). Another site I found says its closer to 30Mbps now which makes sense since a lot of ISPs doubled speeds recently.

30Mbps is not enough to stream 4K *and* support multiple other people using the connection.

More so, Wireless-N tops out at about 30Mbps per client in the real world. You'd need a full Wireless-AC network to go above that.

Now, *I* have 65Mbps down and a full Wireless-AC network in my house and I can get 65Mbps down anywhere in my house, but I'm the only person I know including friends, techy co-workers, etc. that has a full AC network. Everybody else is N.

Like I said man, come down out of your ivory tower, lots of Americans don't even have a computer much less pay for internet access LOL. My brother in law is a techy and runs a business out of his house and only has 15Mbps down.

BTW, have you ever tried download a 2Hr 1080P VOD movie from DirecTV at peak time? How long does it take for your bar to go green? Probably about 15 mins... LMAO.
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post #30 of 63 Old 01-09-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ktownhero View Post
And you're talking about the cost of servers as if there aren't already businesses offering this type of service tens of millions of people in the US. Netflix, Amazon Instant, Youtube, Vudu, Hulu Plus, Crackle, Popcorn Flix and COUNTLESS others. Not to mention services like Steam that let you download games at full bandwidth any time you want or other services like Playstation TV offering game STREAMING in real-time to your TV/device (and other services like this are already live, I forget the names though).

The times have changed my man!
BTW, you should read some articles about the WWE Network. That's a streaming service that was recently built up.

a) the $$$ investment has killed their profits
b) they are incurring heavy losses because they are FAR away from breaking even
c) they say thier break even point is 1M subs, they are stuck at about 700K.

They pulled more then that on traditional PPV and on USA on a weekly basis.

And BTW, with all the money they spent on the infrastructure, they STILL go down during peak hours.

Not everybody has Google / Amazon / NFLX $$$ / infrastructure man .
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