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post #1 of 35 Old 04-07-2015, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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OLED Safe buy ?

I'm highly interested in the lg flat oleds but I just have one question which is swaying me to the Samsung js9500. The lifespan the burn in how long will this oled last I've read a lot of conflicting stories on this site and don't know what to believe I've seen people say 7000 hours I've seen people say 50000 hours is the lifespan. I've seen oled in person and they look great best I've seen but let's just say the TV burns in or crashes within in year would you pretty much be screwed or what any advice on if oled is worth the 8000 if prob is gunna cost or should I side with the safer Samsung js9500. I mainly watch tv in the dark which is what drew me to oled but the lifespan issues have scared me a little bit. Any ideas will be great
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post #2 of 35 Old 04-07-2015, 10:16 PM
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I'm highly interested in the lg flat oleds but I just have one question which is swaying me to the Samsung js9500. The lifespan the burn in how long will this oled last I've read a lot of conflicting stories on this site and don't know what to believe I've seen people say 7000 hours I've seen people say 50000 hours is the lifespan. I've seen oled in person and they look great best I've seen but let's just say the TV burns in or crashes within in year would you pretty much be screwed or what any advice on if oled is worth the 8000 if prob is gunna cost or should I side with the safer Samsung js9500. I mainly watch tv in the dark which is what drew me to oled but the lifespan issues have scared me a little bit. Any ideas will be great
I think most owners have been pretty satisfied with their OLEDs as far as lifespan / burn-in, but the best would be to post your question on the 55EC9300 and 55EA9800 Owner's threads...

Owners of the 65EC9700 here on AVS generally seem to think their purchase was 'worth it'; others are waiting for the technology to mature and/or prices to come down closer to earth.

If I was going to spend the cash Samsung is currently asking for the 65JS9500 right now, I would probably spend that cash on the 65" flat OLED instead (coming this summer). LG has been very good about making early adopters right for any problems they have.

But is OLED a 'safe buy' - don't think I'd be willing to go that far - it's still the bleeding edge.
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post #3 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 05:10 AM
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I'm of the school, even with OLED, that something else is far more likely to break on a TV before you start to have panel life issues.
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post #4 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 10:27 AM
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I'm of the school, even with OLED, that something else is far more likely to break on a TV before you start to have panel life issues.
I've got one plasma where the red subpixels on part of the screen aren't working correctly anymore. Everything else on it works, so it's clearly an issue with panel life. However, it's 8 years old, which is longer than you should expect any modern electronics to last
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post #5 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 11:29 AM
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However, it's 8 years old, which is longer than you should expect any modern electronics to last
8 years is a really generic statement - it kind of makes a difference how long its used per day, and even then some electronics have no problems going for 10+ years (many computer electronics are of such).
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post #6 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 01:51 PM
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8 years is a really generic statement - it kind of makes a difference how long its used per day, and even then some electronics have no problems going for 10+ years (many computer electronics are of such).
It was intentionally generic. The point being, as time goes on, consumer electronics are designed to last shorter and shorter. You can't rake in the big bucks selling the same product year after year unless you engineer it to fail or become obsolete in 5 years or less.

However, that plasma's been tortured to hell. It has over 30,000 hours, which is > 3.5 years of runtime. I don't expect my OLED TV to be putting a pretty picture on screen after 30,000 hours either.
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post #7 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 02:21 PM
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You can't rake in the big bucks selling the same product year after year unless you engineer it to fail or become obsolete in 5 years or less.
Well technically this only works where there's either pretty much minimal competition or cartels, because if you give consumers something that is behind the competition or fails regularly enough times, they'll go elsewhere.

EDIT: Case of the latter - Bestec was actually a pretty good OEM PSU supplier, but one bad design, the 250-12E, ruined their reputation forever.

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post #8 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 02:25 PM
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Well technically this only works where there's either pretty much minimal competition or cartels, because if you give consumers something that is behind the competition or fails regularly enough times, they'll go elsewhere.
I have to disagree, Apple designs their phones to be obsolete within 2-3 years and there's very stiff competition in that market segment. You can't upgrade iOS versions, so they force you into buying a new phone in order to support new apps.
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post #9 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 02:27 PM
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I have to disagree, Apple designs their phones to be obsolete within 2-3 years and there's very stiff competition in that market segment. You can't upgrade iOS versions, so they force you into buying a new phone in order to support new apps.
Whoa whoa whoa, there's a big difference between being feature / support obsolete and actually breaking / being non-functional - I'm talking purely about the latter.

Example - Nintendo no longer supports online play for Wii games, but my console and the games actually still work online via homebrew 3rd party servers (LINK).

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post #10 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 02:47 PM
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Well, okay then. But my point was that you can intentionally make something obsolete by making you buy new hardware when only a software update would be necessary, or by targeting a certain length of use before failure; the net result is the same. New consumer electronics aren't designed to last because that wouldn't be profitable.
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post #11 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 03:05 PM
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New consumer electronics aren't designed to last because that wouldn't be profitable.
Oh come on, you make it sound like all electronics are dependent on their software being actively supported. Surely you can think of at least someone that's still running Windows XP.
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post #12 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 04:23 PM
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Oh come on, you make it sound like all electronics are dependent on their software being actively supported. Surely you can think of at least someone that's still running Windows XP.
And you don't? Surely you must have noticed that to play any modern Blu-Ray, you have to install an update to your Blu-Ray player? The modern world revolves around software updates, a lot of these emerging standards are as much about software as they are any specialized hardware. But the way that consumer electronics are designed to work, major features typically are not rolled out into firmware, they only go into next year's model.
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post #13 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 04:43 PM
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This kinda proves my point....the op was more about hardware failures. Do OLED panels have a limited life? Yep....will you probably want a new TV for one reason or another before you actually start to notice that limited life? Most likely....

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post #14 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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The real plus for me is that I watch tv in the dark so oled obv makes the most sense but I read burn in or image problems are not covered in warranty what would that ,ran how would I get the TV fixed. One more question is I watch a ton of sports are the motion on oleeds good i heard its kinda shacky but the picture on this tvs especially in a fully dark room is so good it's hard to not want one plus there flat which is also a huge plus.
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post #15 of 35 Old 04-08-2015, 08:17 PM
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Basically as long as you're not abusive to the set you won't have to worry about burn-in. If you get into the range of what you may think is abusive you may have some IR, but that's temporary and goes away after a few hours of being off.

Regarding motion, if you're OK with interpolation or native high framerate content you'll be fine.


DISCLAIMER: I do not atually own an OLED TV, this is just the impression I have gotten from the last year or so from OLED TV owners.
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post #16 of 35 Old 04-09-2015, 12:53 PM
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crap I feel asleep with google on my screen..burn in

A panel may suffer from temporary image retention and/or permanent burn-in on top of gradual dimming/degradation with age.

The claims on the linked thread might indicate that OLED actually does suffer from permanent burn-in but that 'wear leveling' technology is in place to mitigate/conceal the visible effects of burn-in without actually reversing it. Such technology may be hiding the issue while encouraging owners to inadvertently shorten the lifespan of the panel with careless use.

The link is to my post where I speculate on the potential issues from the perspective of an admittedly uninformed non-insider engineer.

I would be just as careful about burn-in with OLED as with plasma until some physical evidence, some body of reliability data, or some informed technical argument by an authoritative source proves that burn-in cannot affect the panel in any way.

Other than that, if you have the cash burning a hole in your pocket and you want to enjoy life to the maximum, I say go for it! Try it out, and come back and let us know how it worked out for you.
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post #17 of 35 Old 04-09-2015, 01:12 PM
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It should be noted that a member of Overclock.net did the same thing as the user in the forum thread linked above, and yet he did not experience any IR:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator87 @ Overclock.net
I've been using an OLED display for almost a year and have not had any issues with image burn in. There have even been many occasions when I passed out with the screen still on, displaying my desktop. Considering that's with a first gen OLED display, I'd imagine the new ones fair even better.
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post #18 of 35 Old 04-12-2015, 01:24 PM
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Well technically this only works where there's either pretty much minimal competition or cartels, because if you give consumers something that is behind the competition or fails regularly enough times, they'll go elsewhere.
Correct, but I'll go so far as to say it never ever works. "Planned obsolescence" may have happened once in a great while throughout history, but as a sensible omnipresent business strategy it's a myth and always has been. What I believe people confuse it for is the decision making that accompanies the cost of creating the product of various qualities. In other words, no one has their product designed to fail just so you can go out and buy more. That's a myth from the 70's, and a sure fire way of having your lunch eaten by a competitor. The truth is that companies will sometimes dial back on quality in their product to produce one at a cheaper price....a completely different phenomenon.
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post #19 of 35 Old 04-12-2015, 02:46 PM
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There's a potential problem with HDR. If you don't care about HDR (and many don't), naturally this won't worry you, but there is a possibility that the extra brightness needed for HDR will burn out OLED pixels extra fast, leading to bothersome IR. This is a reservation hinted at by the only observer so far able to report on LG's progress implementing HDR OLED, Rasmus Larsen: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1421919922.

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post #20 of 35 Old 04-12-2015, 05:01 PM
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Correct, but I'll go so far as to say it never ever works. "Planned obsolescence" may have happened once in a great while throughout history, but as a sensible omnipresent business strategy it's a myth and always has been. What I believe people confuse it for is the decision making that accompanies the cost of creating the product of various qualities. In other words, no one has their product designed to fail just so you can go out and buy more. That's a myth from the 70's, and a sure fire way of having your lunch eaten by a competitor. The truth is that companies will sometimes dial back on quality in their product to produce one at a cheaper price....a completely different phenomenon.
I'm not so sure, to be honest. As a software engineer, I see a lot of abuses of this in the consumer electronics industry. Apple is the principle offender, most of the functionality they make you buy new hardware for is purely software and does not actually require the incrementally upgraded hardware that you're required to pay out the butt for. They revived the very business model you're claiming was a myth originating in the 70's and propelled themselves out of the niche content development market and into a trendy consumer electronics giant using it.

Hardware wise, I think you're right. But software wise, planned obsolescence is absolutely done on purpose by any company that finds itself in a position to do so without losing customers in the process. Why offer an iOS upgrade, when you can sell someone an entire new phone / multi-year contract?

LG's not in a position to do this, for sure. I have never in my life heard anyone talk about Goldstar / LG brand loyalty. It's traditionally been the cheap alternative to something else. But by the same token, they're not going to design their products with legendary reliability. Corners will be cut to reduce cost, and those corners mean that products don't last eons and are not user serviceable like they were 50 years ago; you do make a profit when someone has to buy an entire replacement product rather than swapping out vacuum tubes.

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post #21 of 35 Old 04-12-2015, 06:23 PM
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I'm not so sure, to be honest. As a software engineer, I see a lot of abuses of this in the consumer electronics industry. Apple is the principle offender, most of the functionality they make you buy new hardware for is purely software and does not actually require the incrementally upgraded hardware that you're required to pay out the butt for. They revived the very business model you're claiming was a myth originating in the 70's and propelled themselves out of the niche content development market and into a trendy consumer electronics giant using it.

Hardware wise, I think you're right. But software wise, planned obsolescence is absolutely done on purpose by any company that finds itself in a position to do so without losing customers in the process. Why offer an iOS upgrade, when you can sell someone an entire new phone / multi-year contract?
You can have subscription software, and you can also have all manner of licensing without it actually being an intentional attempt to have a product fail after a certain amount of time.

I'm a software engineer as well (for over 30 years now), and I think if you were to look at the real motivating factors here, you'll see that what you're calling a planned obsolescence is in fact just simple product aging, or a licensing structure, or a withdrawl of support, or, or, or, or, or.....

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post #22 of 35 Unread 04-13-2015, 10:19 AM
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You can have subscription software, and you can also have all manner of licensing without it actually being an intentional attempt to have a product fail after a certain amount of time.

I'm a software engineer as well (for over 30 years now), and I think if you were to look at the real motivating factors here, you'll see that what you're calling a planned obsolescence is in fact just simple product aging, or a licensing structure, or a withdrawl of support, or, or, or, or, or.....
Right, but all of those support paths are non-existent in the consumer electronics market segment. These devices are designed to be throw-away, and legacy / long-term software support is eschewed because it's easier just to make the consumer buy new hardware/software as a package. One sort of subsidizes the other in the best-case. But in the worst-case, I honestly think it's a business practice designed to wring as much money out of the consumer as possible.
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post #23 of 35 Unread 04-13-2015, 10:43 AM
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Right, but all of those support paths are non-existent in the consumer electronics market segment. These devices are designed to be throw-away, and legacy / long-term software support is eschewed because it's easier just to make the consumer buy new hardware/software as a package. One sort of subsidizes the other in the best-case. But in the worst-case, I honestly think it's a business practice designed to wring as much money out of the consumer as possible.
I still think this is the cart-before-the-horse. Because if repeat purchases is what you want, then the very last thing in the world you're going to do is piss off your customer base. Anyway, we're going in circles now, and the vast majority of such conversations in these parts has to do with hardware anyway, not software.
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post #24 of 35 Unread 04-13-2015, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
I'm not so sure, to be honest. As a software engineer, I see a lot of abuses of this in the consumer electronics industry. Apple is the principle offender, most of the functionality they make you buy new hardware for is purely software and does not actually require the incrementally upgraded hardware that you're required to pay out the butt for. They revived the very business model you're claiming was a myth originating in the 70's and propelled themselves out of the niche content development market and into a trendy consumer electronics giant using it.
This is only true if you're trying to be trendy.

If you want the new features that the latest release of whatever requires, you're going to need updated hardware or it will perform glacially. For example, the performance of iOS 8 on a retina iPad 3 is pretty horrible in many areas, often requiring a second or two for keystrokes on-screen to catch up to what you typed.

However as a usable piece of electronics, I have a 1994 Mac that hasn't been supported for about a decade but still does what it did then very admirably.

It's only "obsolescence" if it dies completely or if you become unhappy with the performance you originally bought it for; a 720P HDTV isn't obsolete if it still works and you're happy with its PQ.

(For that matter, one of the best looking HDTVs I see with regularity is a Sony 60XBR1 RPTV with a good optical block, but it won't even do 1080p.)
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post #25 of 35 Unread 04-13-2015, 06:44 PM
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You can have subscription software, and you can also have all manner of licensing without it actually being an intentional attempt to have a product fail after a certain amount of time.

I'm a software engineer as well (for over 30 years now), and I think if you were to look at the real motivating factors here, you'll see that what you're calling a planned obsolescence is in fact just simple product aging, or a licensing structure, or a withdrawl of support, or, or, or, or, or.....
I think it's more a case of forced obsolescence. People want stuff for cheap. They get stuff for cheap.

I have an electric hair trimmer bought in 1979. Still works. I still get my hair cut with it every two months. I don't know how much it was. Probably more than 30 1979 dollars. I can get one for $30 today, but it probably won't last 35+ years.

Anyway, the job market is bad enough. If they start making stuff that LAST, nobody will have job!
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As far as "burn in" on these LG OLEDs:

I own the ec9300 and two ea8800s. If I leave something paused on accident for more than 6 hours or so I'll get some image retention. Simply unplugging the power cable from the wall for a minute or two and plugging back in completely removes it. That's been my experience anyway. If 55" can work for you, I'd be buying the ec9300 at the amazing $2k current price tag all day long. I paid 3k for mine and have no regrets doing so.

As far as lifespan, for me its a non issue of sorts as I don't typically keep TVs for longer then 2 years. The exception may be the EA8800 model. The icing on the cake for me with the EA8800's is when I'm done using them for TV purposes next year, I'll be able to repurpose them as a digital picture/art frames somewhere else in the house.

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post #27 of 35 Unread Yesterday, 06:42 AM
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As far as "burn in" on these LG OLEDs:

I own the ec9300 and two ea8800s. If I leave something paused on accident for more than 6 hours or so I'll get some image retention. Simply unplugging the power cable from the wall for a minute or two and plugging back in completely removes it. That's been my experience anyway. If 55" can work for you, I'd be buying the ec9300 at the amazing $2k current price tag all day long. I paid 3k for mine and have no regrets doing so.
I don't know that this is the best way to approach the problem. They do OLED panel compensation (an automated process that compensates for different voltage response between pixels) when switched off after 4 hours of operation, but I have sit there and measured the power consumption while this is happening. My EG9600 draws about 95-97W of power whenever this process is triggered and it takes ~45 seconds to complete. On normal power down (less than 4 hours of operation) it drops down to 10W almost immediately.

It's surreal to see it using that much power to do something and no pixels are visibly lit, but if it requires ~4500 joules of energy to do this, then uplugging the TV's definitely not going to help Just hit the power switch and let it do the full process.
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I think it's more a case of forced obsolescence. People want stuff for cheap. They get stuff for cheap.

I have an electric hair trimmer bought in 1979. Still works. I still get my hair cut with it every two months. I don't know how much it was. Probably more than 30 1979 dollars. I can get one for $30 today, but it probably won't last 35+ years.

Anyway, the job market is bad enough. If they start making stuff that LAST, nobody will have job!
If a company can make something that lasts a year for $1, or that same something that lasts two years for $1, they'll make it last for two years. If they don't, then their competitor will, leaving their own name tarnished. Don't have the cart pull the horse here.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid. And specifically for Bitcoin fanatics: Stop drinking the bong water.
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post #29 of 35 Unread Yesterday, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaldaien View Post
I don't know that this is the best way to approach the problem. They do OLED panel compensation (an automated process that compensates for different voltage response between pixels) when switched off after 4 hours of operation, but I have sit there and measured the power consumption while this is happening. My EG9600 draws about 95-97W of power whenever this process is triggered and it takes ~45 seconds to complete. On normal power down (less than 4 hours of operation) it drops down to 10W almost immediately.

It's surreal to see it using that much power to do something and no pixels are visibly lit, but if it requires ~4500 joules of energy to do this, then uplugging the TV's definitely not going to help Just hit the power switch and let it do the full process.
Only stating what has worked for me on my ec9300. If you want to dork out measuring power consumption for 4 hours more power to ya

Power cycling didn't fix it. Unplugging for a minute or two did. Maybe it was unrelated, but it's fixed mine on two occasions now.

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post #30 of 35 Unread Yesterday, 09:33 AM
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Only stating what has worked for me on my ec9300. If you want to dork out measuring power consumption for 4 hours more power to ya

Power cycling didn't fix it. Unplugging for a minute or two did. Maybe it was unrelated, but it's fixed mine on two occasions now.
4 hours? This process occurs when you turn the TV off and takes less than a minute to complete. But it doesn't happen if you unplug it instead of turning it off, it'll wind up being deferred until the next time you properly turn it off in that case :-\

The only reason I mentioned power consumption and time was to give you an idea that there's not enough residual energy in the power supply to do this if you unplug it. It's a relatively lengthy process that only happens when the TV shuts down correctly. I've interrupted the process in the middle to see what happens and it restarts the whole thing the next time you turn it off.

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