2015 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout Results - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 09:54 AM
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How does a display that CLEARY had uniformity issues win a shootout? That means people ignored the shadow distortion on the LG. Just straight ignored it!
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post #62 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 09:55 AM
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It's interesting, but the aspect of picture quality that is most important to me, for premium sets, is not rated. Mostly I watch satellite TV, and my Samsung JS9000 upscales this to give much better apparent resolution than my old Panasonic plasma had. (I don't know how well the TVs in the shootout do this -- I've heard the Sony does it well.)

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post #63 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 09:57 AM
 
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Too bad D-Nice doesn't post here anymore. If there is a signal and noise in any forum, he was equivalent to a fundamental tone with a high peak. I suspect he left because the SNR dropped significantly. Thankfully there is still plenty of good stuff to learn here.

It's really disappointing the LG did so poorly in uniformity. I hope they can fix those issues prior to launch.

Q) Does the LG have a DisplayPort input?

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post #64 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
How does a display that CLEARY had uniformity issues win a shootout? That means people ignored the shadow distortion on the LG. Just straight ignored it!
Talking with Chad B, he said the shadow detail and black crush issues can be calibrated out with the OLED. He said he has seen it on some OLED units before calibration and after calibration it was gone.

Last edited by Cleveland Plasma; 06-26-2015 at 10:02 AM.
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post #65 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Y2JDMBFAN View Post
Also, did you guys measure input lag?
yes they did Samsung 20 ms sony 38ms lg 48 0r 58 can't remember panasonics , Sasmung scored the best by far for input lag

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post #66 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ktownhero View Post
Average scores without off-axis category:

1) Samsung - 8.54
2) Sony - 8.4
3) LG - 8.14
4) Panasonic - 7.134

As you can see, the off-axis viewing angle performance is what carries the OLED to the top. With that aside, it's rather handily bested by both the Samsung and Sony sets.
It's amazing, Samsung winning the OLED ?

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post #67 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Talking with Chad B, he said the shadow detail issues can be calibrated out with the OLED. He said he has seen it on some OLED units and after calibration it was gone. As far as uniformity issues, I bet every set there was not perfectly uniform from side to side or top to bottom.
Perhaps you should have ChadB contact the LG engineering team in S. Korea to explain to them how to calibrate out the issues with the darkened sides. They don't seem to know what is causing it. As for uniformity issues, all 4 sets had some minor issues. The LG was a nightmare. In gray slides and even color slides, the darkening was visible from 10 IRE to 50 IRE and just a smidge on 60. It lessened each step up. The other three had some minor color blotches spaced randomly around the panel. The LG had those too BTW. I think I gave the LG a 3 in this category. I think I was being generous as Tim Alessi seems like a very nice chap.

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post #68 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
How does a display that CLEARY had uniformity issues win a shootout? That means people ignored the shadow distortion on the LG. Just straight ignored it!
you and I agree here. From video feed I could see the issues . Oled has no off axis problems so u could judge PQ somewhat off feed. The blacks were severely crushed in grayscale also on some content dark edges that looked horrible and wrong colours in Hues . I am shocked that OLED won. From reports of those in attendance they were not impressed and said life of pi made tv freak out..

The one good thing from this is that OLED will most likely drop in prices as the 5000 dollar price difference is not justified for just better blks and contrast while colours,uniformity and motion are not great.

Js9500 78 inch should drop 1000 dollars to more closely match price of 940C which by all accounts is a great set 1000 bucks more for 3 inches is fair ..

Bottom line for LCD both JS9500 and 940C are good ..
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post #69 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by EdwinB View Post
Well, after reading some of the comments made yesterday about the LG you might have been surprised, I certainly am a bit after yesterday.

Based on the posts from yesterday by various people you would have expected the Sony and Samsung to come out on top of the LG with ease, based mostly on the very negative comments regarding the "black sides" issue of the LG with dark content.

I really wonder how this issue affects normal viewing, considering it still came out on top, and if it is limited to a number of sets or each and every 9600 out there. Let's hope LG pays close attention and comes up with a way to fix this.
I've seen all the TVs in person and the LG had a much better picture. I never saw the dark edges issue but then again I saw it in Best Buy for maybe 10 minutes and wasn't staring at the edges. If you're super critical, the LG shortcomings may drive you insane, but for normal people, it will blow them away.
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post #70 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
It is a shame that for the important things like color accuracy, screen uniformity and even motion clarity the LG was not good, so clearly Blacks and contrast saved it's butt. I would be curious as to any comment as to how any of these hold up to the last gen Samsung and Panny plasmas.
These are the black clipping bars on the Panasonic VT60, a set awarded "reference status":



(Note: pro mode, sharpness 0, all enhancements off, 16:9, overscan off, etc.)

Those bars are supposed to be the same uniform grey from edge to edge.

As for colour accuracy, this is the 55" VT60:



Every part of that cross is supposed to be the same luminance and colour (same input RGB values).

People here have been very critical of LG's early attempts at OLED. But you can see the near black issues on the 16th generation Panasonic plasma, something that you wouldn't know existed if you relied only on reviews.

And why is it that Panasonic's so-called "flagship" LCD is so uncompetitive? The company has been producing LCD TVs for at least 15 years.

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post #71 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by player002 View Post
yes they did Samsung 20 ms sony 38ms lg 48 0r 58 can't remember panasonics , Sasmung scored the best by far for input lag
Please stop posting incorrect information. If you don't know, don't respond.

Panasonic 39.8
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post #72 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Scott, any chance we can see the calibration reports?
Yes, as soon as I get them, I will post them in the reserved comment for them.

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post #73 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:14 AM
 
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do thay made 200 Hours running to OLED ? before scoring ?

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post #74 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:25 AM
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Yes, as soon as I get them, I will post them in the reserved comment for them.
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post #75 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:27 AM
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Since it wasn't a double blind test, the results aren't valid, as every audio 'expert' on this forum believes.


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post #76 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:32 AM
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Just a thought, but some of the guys voting as experts were trade professionals, not video guys. I would not doubt that some of the AVS members who attended knew more about video than they did. One guy told me that very thing. He voted the first day and knew almost nothing about video and came back again to learn more.

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post #77 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
Please stop posting incorrect information. If you don't know, don't respond.

Panasonic 39.8
Sony 36.2
Samsung 21.0
LG - 57.8
sorry was listening yesterday but did not write down. in reality I was not far off I said 38 for sony but it was 36.2 also said 20 for samsung but it was 21 and said lg 48-58 . I did say I was not sure on LG and sony that it was around that BTW. Anyhow thanks for correction I was only off by 2 and 1 sec ..

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post #78 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hawnr6 View Post
I know its all about PQ - but I think a "value" category would even out the results. Is the Samsung 3x better then the Panny? - because its 3x the cost..
Does everybody place the same value on money? IMO, value is a completely subjective opinion. Everyone has limits on how low in quality/high in cost they are willing to go and those limits vary from person to person. There are lots of places you can go to if you want a review that grades displays based on a value curve. This is one of the few places where you can get an honest evaluation of PQ without any regard for price. This allows you to assign your own weight based on your personal definition of value, instead of somebody else's.

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post #79 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by all clear View Post
that only tells that Blacklevel and Contrast is still King and what gets the highest scores.
nothing has changed there.
THIS.

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Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
What surprised me the most is the fact the five ballots from the experts ranked the "amazingly FABU" LG OLED an average of 8.31 (out of maximum of 10) while ranking those "promising/yet to be proven UHD LCD" sets from Samsung at 8.20 and the Sony at 8.03, and the 72 ballots ranking from non-experts followed closely.
Isn't that a rather small difference in overall performance to justify all this hoopla we've been hearing about OLED tech as well as its steep pricing differential versus UHD LCD sets ?
Not IMO. We're talking about what amounts to (practically) the very first OLEDs out of the gate besting the very best LCDs, a tech which has been on the market for years. I think it's a pretty big deal. And given the issues the LG had it's reasonable to believe that it'll get even better over the next few years. Can LCD keep up? My money would be on OLED widening the gap, while at the same time closing the pricing premium.

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I can only imagine that had they presented native HDR material on the Samsung set next to the LG OLED set displaying the same material but downconverted to "standard mode" (non-HDR), the majority of voters would have picked the Samsung as their favorite, or am I assuming too much ?
Tough to say. Apparently the Joe Kane HDR demo was extraordinary, so maybe.

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Originally Posted by Carlos_E View Post
How does a display that CLEARY had uniformity issues win a shootout? That means people ignored the shadow distortion on the LG. Just straight ignored it!
I hate to say it but I think we have to define two different ways to "win" this thing:

1) Highest average score

2) Simple ranking of "which set do you like best?"

They very well may not be the same thing since the first method weights all scores equally. In the real world we probably don't do that as viewers. IF the LG still wins on the second method then it's clear we rank black and contrast far far above everything else in importance, including pretty bad screen uniformity.

EDIT - edited for clean up and also to add this:

I really look forward to buying a set in a year or two when all the WCG, HDR, and UHD specs and standards have not only been agreed upon but are readily available in products throughout the food chain...BR players, TVs, receivers, etc. all with HDMI 2.0a, HDCP 2.2, etc. etc. etc.
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post #80 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Skimanfz1 View Post
Since it wasn't a double blind test, the results aren't valid, as every audio 'expert' on this forum believes.


You could construct a wall with rectangular cutouts through which the screens are visible. During any operations that show the GUIs, the screens could be hidden completely (curtain). It might be difficult to remove all tell-tale signs (curve can't be hidden), but an attempt at a double blind test is worth a try.

Or go one step further and opt for the triple blind test? The triple blind test is like the double blind test, except that the viewers are blindfolded. Not being able to see anything at all removes any possibility of visually induced bias
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post #81 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:39 AM
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Since it wasn't a double blind test, the results aren't valid, as every audio 'expert' on this forum believes.


How do you run a "blind" test on picture quality? 🙈

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post #82 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:45 AM
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How do you run a "blind" test on picture quality? 🙈
Close your eyes and imagine what it looks like... duh...
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post #83 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 121212 View Post
do thay made 200 Hours running to OLED ? before scoring ?

No they said it had 0 hours they said sony and Samsung had 200 hours and the panasonic had 50 hours. I might be mixing the Panasonic and Lg hours up though but at the most it had 50 hours..

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post #84 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:49 AM
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No they said it had 0 hours they said sony and Samsung had 200 hours and the panasonic had 50 hours. I might be mixing the Panasonic and Lg hours up though but at the most it had 50 hours..
As I recall the LG had ~50 hours on it...
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post #85 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post
And if it was the Screen Uniformity score for the LG that you took out, then it would would have won by a huge margin.

Take your thumb off the scales.
Screen uniformity issues are visible no matter where you sit. Viewing angle issues mostly pertain to watching TVs while sitting off to the side. IMO that makes screen uniformity a greater concern for videophiles who sit within the optimal viewing angle for VA LCDs.

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post #86 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:50 AM
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when the screens get isf calibrated, are they calibrated to look the same as each other? in theory at least?

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Originally Posted by RDHolmes View Post
How do you run a "blind" test on picture quality? 🙈
Double-deaf taste test.
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post #88 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ktownhero View Post
Average scores without off-axis category:

1) Samsung - 8.54
2) Sony - 8.4
3) LG - 8.14
4) Panasonic - 7.134

As you can see, the off-axis viewing angle performance is what carries the OLED to the top. With that aside, it's rather handily bested by both the Samsung and Sony sets.
So, if we go by the premise of taking out one category, I can take out screen uniformity which hurts the LG.

72 Non Experts
LG 8.60
Sony 7.99
Samsung 7.88
Panny 6.82

Experts
LG 8.7
Samsung 8.16
Sony 8.03
Panny 6.67

It has been said that the uniformity issues can be calibrated out or that the issue just isnt there on other panels. There is obviously a panel lottery, which stinks. But....if we do get a good panel, the clear winner is the LG. Surprisingly, LG also wins the motion clarity category among the 72 non experts. I think that is somewhat of an eye opener.
IMO the clear winner from a price to size to performance perspective is the Sony. Its def. got my attention. It may get my money come October.

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post #89 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:54 AM
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Well, this is a much more hopeful outcome for LG OLED than was being projected yesterday.

The only category that LG OLED needs to fix is the screen uniformity problem, and then it would be clearly the very best display. They should be able to fix that, and if they can not, then they should fire their software/hardware team,and hire some better ones to get the job done.
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post #90 of 1566 Old 06-26-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RDHolmes View Post
How do you run a "blind" test on picture quality?
The "blind" part of "blind test" refers to a lack of awareness of what each product is and judging it purely based on its presentation. That judgment can be made with any of your senses, including vision I don't know if you were being facetious or not, but figured I'd answer seriously.

It would actually be very interesting to see a blind test done on TVs, but it would require that all of the screens are the same size and are either all curved or all flat. Otherwise, people can infer too much information from those cues alone.
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