QLED vs OLED - CES 2017 recap - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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QLED vs OLED - CES 2017 recap

I'm typing this on my phone and so will add more detail to the post when on my tablet, but here are my impressions of OLED and QLED from CES 2017.

First OLED. 2017 is a consolidation year for LG OLED. Showroom picture quality is what we have come to expect in 2016. No breakthroughs. Nothing really 'new' other than the new Wallpaper hanging design. That and consolidation of HDR with demos and support for all current HDR formats including Dolby Vision, Technicolor, HyperLogGamma, and HDR10 (static).

Some incremental increase in peak brightness for HDR and reduction of ABL but impossible to assess the impact of that on the showroom floor.

Unknown whether they have made any improvements to bear-black uniformity, near-black controls, or CMS controls (buggy in 2016).

LG did make strides in Audio, adding full support for Dolby Atmos to the 2017 OLEDs including full Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 decoding directly into the TVs for use with a Dolby Atmos Soundbar (a first) as well as Atmos-over-ARC like Vizio offered in 2016.

Stripped away 3D, stripped away curved screen offerings, focused on a silver bezel for the B7 (which may be exclusive to Costco) and an anodized black aluminum bezel for the C Series which matches the look of the W Series.

To recap, little in the way of true innovation other than the flashy flagship hanging-piece-of-black-glass W Series and realization of the full Dolby vision: Dolby Vision UHD Player and Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 Soundbar.


Samsung, by way of contrast, had a 2017 full of innovation in display technology..

Their 'QLED' technology appears to truly be a new breed of LCD, largely offering IPS-like viewing angles with VA-like contrast ratio and black levels.

However it is working, the new pixel is visibly different from both IPS and VA pixels, evincing a plasma-like shimmering / DSE when viewed from up close. In near-black, this shimmering becomes pronounced and is visible from 1-1.5 screen widths if viewing distance.

Brightness is great, colors are great, and Samsung is making a great deal of noise about color volume (100% DCI-P3 @ 1500 cd/m2).

So to recap, on the plus side, viewing angles have pretty much caught up with OLED (and possibly even inched into the lead when off-angle color shift of OLED is considered ); and bright HDR looks fantastic.

In the negative side, I have seen evidence of three PQ attributes that may prove to be less-than-promised:

-Blacks do not seem to be close to OLED level. There may be some nonlinearity resulting in reduced blacks at the expense of some black crush, but blacks are still 'glowing' in OLED parlance.

-there appears to be increased banding near-black in dark colors (brown). This could be due to the nonlinearity that may have been introduced.

-the near-black sparkling/shimmering is very visible from relatively close (1-1.5 screen widths) and may mean viewing distance needs to be maintained farther back than that.

For those who value perfect blacks and view in the dark, I believe OLED will retain it's crown for at least another year. For those who watch with some lights on or value brights over blacks, Samsung will retain it's crown as well and will have added to it's lead.

P.S. One more thing I should comment on is that Samsung was far more defensive at the show than LG. LG would allow me to get as close to any screen as Ivwanted and would let me stay for as long ascIvwanted. Samsung had lines on the carpet ad out a screen-widths away and would not let you inspect the screen closely (at least any screen showing any dark portion of content). If you approached a screen closer than they wanted they would shoo you away. They allowed close inspection of the off-angle demo but it was only showing bright content. This may end up being a problem for them on the show-room floor...
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post #2 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 09:14 AM
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I wonder how they will do to fix light bleed on a edge lit display
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post #3 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Quebecker View Post
I wonder how they will do to fix light bleed on a edge lit display
It certainly seems pretty uniform so I'm not sure 'bleed' is an issue. I didn't see any signs of bleed, but everything was bright content so impossible to assess.

So it's an unknown whether light bleed is an issue or not (but I suspect not).

What I believe is likely to be an issue is 'OLED-like' Blacks ('Real Black'). They've no doubt introduced something new to justify the branding, but from what I have seen, a true head-to-head against OLED in a dark room with high-contrast content (meaning partially black screen) will show that the QLED blacks are 'glowing' in comparison to the OLED...
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post #4 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
It certainly seems pretty uniform so I'm not sure 'bleed' is an issue. I didn't see any signs of bleed, but everything was bright content so impossible to assess.

So it's an unknown whether light bleed is an issue or not (but I suspect not).

What I believe is likely to be an issue is 'OLED-like' Blacks ('Real Black'). They've no doubt introduced something new to justify the branding, but from what I have seen, a true head-to-head against OLED in a dark room with high-contrast content (meaning partially black screen) will show that the QLED blacks are 'glowing' in comparison to the OLED...
I just can't fathom why any tv maker would even mess with edge lighting for a serious home theater display. Just an awful way to light a big panel. I knowthat Sony and the 930D series did an admirable job of making it sort of work but even owners in that thread claim it still happens. I was considering the 930D until I read that.

So, there is STILL that ever pesky black level performance problem which is obviously very important to us home theater guys. That to me kills QLED for serious dark room viewing. In other words....LCD still can't get the single most important PQ characteristic right. It also affects overall contrast negatively too. Meh.

OLED?...for the win!

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post #5 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 09:49 AM
 
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post #6 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
I just can't fathom why any tv maker would even mess with edge lighting for a serious home theater display. Just an awful way to light a big panel. I knowthat Sony and the 930D series did an admirable job of making it sort of work but even owners in that thread claim it still happens. I was considering the 930D until I read that.
I think I can help with that - it's cost.

Last year showed Samsung that if OLEDs cost less than FALD LED/LCD, consumers/videophiles prefer OLED. 2 out of every 3 65" TVs coating $3000+ were OLED. Game over for FALD at 65@ (and 55").

So the only way Samsung is going to hold onto market share with LED/LCD is to make it less expensive than OLED, and that means ditching the more expensive full/direct backlight for the less expensive edge lighting...

Quote:
So, there is STILL that ever pesky black level performance problem which is obviously very important to us home theater guys. That to me kills QLED for serious dark room viewing. In other words....LCD still can't get the single most important PQ characteristic right. It also affects overall contrast negatively too. Meh.

OLED?...for the win!
just to be clear, this was a preliminary/rough assessment in vendor-controlled and very hard-to-assess show floor conditions.

Some reviewers who claim to have seen special private showrooms claim dramatic improvements in black level, so we'll just need to await first owners and impartial review sites like ratings.com to get more definitive assessments.

But nothing I have seen leads me to expect more than incremental improvements in VA-type edge-lit black levels...
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post #7 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 10:02 AM
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Atmos and soundbar should never be used in the same sentence..
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post #8 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Atmos and soundbar should never be used in the same sentence..
You'd be shocked. Until you've heard one, keep an open mind.

If you've heard the Atmos demo n the Magnolia room or have played the VUDU Atmos demos at home, the effects were surprisingly impressive.

Noticeably better that 5.1.

I think Atmos and these newcAtmis soundbars are going to get a lot more consumers jumping from 2.0 to 5.1.2 in their homes...

Even suggested my brother check them out once they are available...
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post #9 of 419 Old 01-07-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
You'd be shocked. Until you've heard one, keep an open mind.

If you've heard the Atmos demo n the Magnolia room or have played the VUDU Atmos demos at home, the effects were surprisingly impressive.

Noticeably better that 5.1.

I think Atmos and these newcAtmis soundbars are going to get a lot more consumers jumping from 2.0 to 5.1.2 in their homes...

Even suggested my brother check them out once they are available...
I have heard them. Look, they are a big improvement over the built in flat screen TV speakers, but you still have small drivers in a small cabinet with a small subwoofer and, more often than not, your surround speakers placed in an array with your mains.

I am sure most people are happy with them for the same reason many people think Bose speakers sound great. But comparing an Atmos soundbar to a properly configured Atmos room with decent speakers and subwoofers is night and day.

I would advocate that instead of spending decent money on an Atmos soundbar instead buy a good 2.1 or 3.1 system with bookshelves and a good sub.
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post #10 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 08:41 AM
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Seems like an unfair expectation is being laid on OLED when compared to any LCD technology. I mean LCD has been around forever and it's still providing huge advances in PQ? If OLED improves its peak brightness it's an incremental improvement but if LCD improves its blacks and viewing angles it's a large advancement? Maybe it's a curse OLED has laid on itself by nailing perfect blacks and viewing angles from the get go that any other improvement is only considered incremental. We used to cheer every year plasma blacks would inch closer and closer to perfect blacks and celebrate if it has some semblance of brightness. I'm not saying LG OLEDs are perfect, and in fact may end up beings surpassed by Sony's OLED, but if PQ is your main concern then no LCD comes even close to OLED technology. All other technological improvements such as bezel size, panel thickness, sound bars, etc are just cosmetics. Now when QLED is an actual self-emissive display then that will be a technological advancement. Until LCD reaches perfect blacks and viewing angles I don't care if they make brightness as high as the sun itself, it's still lipstick on a pig
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post #11 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 08:45 AM
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Really disappointed with LG in 2017. A step back IMO getting rid of options.
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post #12 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
I just can't fathom why any tv maker would even mess with edge lighting for a serious home theater display.
Maybe samsung doesn't see them as "a serious home theater display " but maybe more as a family tv in a big bright living room? What's more mesmerizing to a 10 year old, bright and colorful vibrant colors or deep perfect blacks?

Keep an eye out though for a videophile addition. These lcd advancements would go to waste if the don't at least try to compete with the highest end tvs.
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post #13 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 09:19 AM
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Really disappointed with LG in 2017. A step back IMO getting rid of options.
How so? The only options I see is 3D and curved screens.

Media room- LG 4K OLED EG9600, Pioneer Elite VSX-90, Samsung 4K K8500, Klipsch Gallery G28's, Klipsch Sub 12, Klipsch RS-52 II, Optik HD cable

Living room- Sony 4K 79XBRX900B, Onkyo RC-360,HTPC, Klipsch Reference R-62II, Rc52II,PS4

Gaming room -Panasonic ST60, PS3, Wii
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post #14 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Want to repeat a comment I made n the QLED thread.

Samsung is running private head-to-head QLED versus OLED shootouts of HDR in a dark room and professional reviewers are saying QLED is better.

They are allowing themselves to be manipulated (either consciously or unconsciously ).

Samsung is controlling the content and the QLEDs are brighter, so of course in a head-to-head view-off, eyeballs will adjust to the higher brightness of QLED and OLED will look dim in comparison.

One thing I know with certainty is if you could wave a magic wand and have all OLEDs on Samsung's demo booth showing Samsung's demo loops and all QLEDs on LG's booth showing LG's demo loops, the OLEDs would look fantastic on virtually all of Samsung's demos while QLEDs would look poorly on many LG's demos.

A fair comparison of QLED to OLED would mean:

1/ head-to-head with Brightness calibrated for equality (or dimming glasses used for the QLED and using both bright as well as dark/shadow-detail content.

2/ Alternatively, a sequential test can be done - first OLED then QLED. Again, both bright and shadow-detail rich content.

3/ And another way to test would be HDR versus Reference SDR sequentially testing first OLED and then QLED.

My expectation is that, once compensation for dilation in the presence of increased brightness is provided, OLED will loo 95-99% as good as QLED on any HDR content, and once dark-content/shadow-detail is properly included in the assessment, OLED will faaaaar outshine QLED.

We'll see which one of the professional review outlets properly plans for head-to-head view offs of displays putting out different peak brightness .
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post #15 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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And one more thing (also stated in the QLED thread).

From what I have seen, I don't believe the QLED TVs can deliver an effective 10-bits of pixel-depth on dark tones.

I believe the QLED viewing angle breakthrough involves the use of time in a manner than makes time-division tricks to that make a panel with native 8-bit physical resolution appear to deliver 10-bits of effective resolution no longer possible.

So the QLED panel's appear to have a resolution of 8-bits (or even less ) for dark tones which is probably why they apparently do no qualify for Premium HDR certification.

Pretty funny to think that Samsung's flagship 2017 TV do not qualify for the premium certification they defined themselves only a year ago .

For me, that fact is further confirmation that the progress OLED made on price and market share last year caught Samsung completely by surprise...
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post #16 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Maybe samsung doesn't see them as "a serious home theater display " but maybe more as a family tv in a big bright living room? What's more mesmerizing to a 10 year old, bright and colorful vibrant colors or deep perfect blacks?

Keep an eye out though for a videophile addition. These lcd advancements would go to waste if the don't at least try to compete with the highest end tvs.
I somewhat agree. In smaller sizes and in your use case, no doubt any TV will do the trick. But Samsung isnt using FALD on any of their larger or obviously "serious" TVs other than the absolute top model. At least Sony, Vizio and others try to up the backlight game in some way. Sonys slim-drive on the 930D is solid, for example. Or just use FALD which is the right thing to do. Deep blacks does not mean you have to sacrfice "bright and vibrant" either. I get what youre saying though.

I believe LCD will always struggle in the high end arena because the vast majority of high-end users critical viewing is done in a dark room. Thats where LCDs just come up short. Not sure what else they can do. They've had a long time to get it right and its just not ever going to match an emmissive displays blacks and contrast.

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post #17 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
I somewhat agree. In smaller sizes and in your use case, no doubt any TV will do the trick. But Samsung isnt using FALD on any of their larger or obviously "serious" TVs other than the absolute top model. At least Sony, Vizio and others try to up the backlight game in some way. Sonys slim-drive on the 930D is solid, for example. Or just use FALD which is the right thing to do. Deep blacks does not mean you have to sacrfice "bright and vibrant" either. I get what youre saying though.

I believe LCD will always struggle in the high end arena because the vast majority of high-end users critical viewing is done in a dark room. Thats where LCDs just come up short. Not sure what else they can do. They've had a long time to get it right and its just not ever going to match an emmissive displays blacks and contrast.
Don't shoot the messenger, but FALD died in 2016.

Chinese vendors (including Vizio ) will probably continue to offer FALD LED/LCDs for a few more years, but as far as premium-brand FALD, 2016 was the year that OLED succeeded to undercut them on cost (OLED65B6P versus 65KL9800).

There is absolutely no reason to think that FALD is going to get less expensive going forward, while OLED will continue to make impressive strides in cost as volumes continue to ramp.

Marry that fact to the reality that the penultimate performance of an ultra-zone FALD LED/LCD would be to achieve OLED-like picture quality, and you can see the writing on the wall.

A flagship LED/LCD with FALD or two for bragging rights, the way we always see a 90-110" flat-panel or two for bragging rights, is likely to continue, but Premium TV offerings based on FALD LED/LCD are soon going to go the way of the dinosaur .
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post #18 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 04:07 PM
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Sony still flag ship Z9 in 65 and 75 plus the 75x940e are fald. And the Z9 was the best FALD set last year and is being carried over as there flagship this year. Hard to beat the 600 plus independent zones of the Z9. Of course OLED will be above in PQ. But I'm talking LCD.

Before anyone says fan boy lol. Yes I own a Z9 but also still have two Samsung's. And I'm looking at an OLED for our beach house this spring.


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Sony still flag ship Z9 in 65 and 75 plus the 75x940e are fald. And the Z9 was the best FALD set last year and is being carried over as there flagship this year. Hard to beat the 600 plus independent zones of the Z9. Of course OLED will be above in PQ. But I'm talking LCD.

Before anyone says fan boy lol. Yes I own a Z9 but also still have two Samsung's. And I'm looking at an OLED for our beach house this spring.


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The Z9 is a fantastic TV and no doubt Sony will keep selling it as long as their is demand.

It is likely to be the best FALD LED/LCD TV ever made.

The 65" OLEDs ate already significantly lower-cost than the 65" Z9s, and by 2019, the 77" OLEDs are likely to be lower-cost than the 75" Z9s.

Once sales of the Z9 dry up, Sony is unlikely to replace it with another FALD.

That is my point. R.I.P. FALD LED/LCD (joined by 3D TV in the graveyard .
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post #20 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Repeat of a post I made in the QLED thread:

I did not know how to interpret this image the first time it was posted.

Now that I have looked at the QLED screens from up close, I think I know how to interpret this picture.

Each collection RGB 'stripes' represents a square pixel.

Each of these individual vertical subpixel stripes is further subdivided into 8 sub-sub-pixels, 2 columns versus 4 rows.

The individual light 'dots' in the middle of the dark central line represent a single one of these sub-sub pixels.

An entire square pixel has 6 sub-sub pixels horizontally times 8 vertically. The vertical subdivision may actually by 6 rows instead of 8 rows, which would make 6x6 sub-sub-pixels to a single pixel (rather than 8x6).

I believe that each of these 8x6 or 8x8 sub-subpixels is being controlled by its own individual LCD lightvalve which also probably has something different either in terms of crystal orientation or polarizer or something to impact light direction/polarity.

By quickly activating/deactivating different sub-subpixels, Samsung is able to scatter the light coming from an individual subpixel off in different directions quickly enough that our eyes percieve it as improved viewing angles (think of a fast searchlight ).

It's a nifty idea, it appears to vastly improve VA LCD viewing angles, but infortubately I suspect that it come at the cost of only being able to rely on the native electrical resolution of the LCD lightvalve and being unable to use time-division for effective resolution gains, at least at low lumen levels.

I saw 8-bit-like color banding on dark brown output levek. This would only be possible if the pixel were limited to 8 bits and could not turn on-and-off quickly enough to effectively deliver 10-bits of effective resolution (meaning 1/4 period time-division multiplexing.

A 10-but brown gradient pattern (or probably any color) will quickly tell whether my suspicion is justified.

But believe me, despite how difficult Samsung made it at the booth, I witnessed color-banding artifacts that would make any videophile shudder. I checked and rechecked 3 times on two seperate swings through the Samsung booth.

And the fact that they are apparently not getting UHD Premium certification on these QLED TVs gives me a strong gut feeling that m suspicion is correct and that the reason UHD Premium Certification is out of reach is that these QLED TVs are unable to deliver an effective 10 bits...

100% color volume but at only 25% of the resolution dictated by UHD Premium, that's my hunch on how to sum up these 2017 QLEDs...
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post #21 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 04:48 PM
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I had sall your post about the flicker/shimmer that would kill it for me. I would found that a big problem and to me an inherent problem with there new panel tech.

Looking forward to what the reviews say about that.

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post #22 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 04:55 PM
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Don't shoot the messenger, but FALD died in 2016.
Source of the attached picture? Very interesting. I'm surprised by the difference between US and Europe on OLED adoption.

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post #23 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Source of the attached picture?
I copied it from the QLED thread in the LCD Forum. I believe it might have been posted by imagic but am uncertain. If you peruse the thread, you will find it.

Quote:
Very interesting. I'm surprised by the difference between US and Europe on OLED adoption.
understand now you were referring to the market share picture, not the pixel picture . (Helps to use 'quote' to provide reference for next time .

That Premium TV market share data was copied from the OLED Technology sticky thread. I believe the source has been attributed to IHS.

Holiday sale pricing was far more aggressive in the US than in Europe.

65" OLEDs were discounted to $2800 in major Brick & Morter retailers, was easily available for $2500 online, and could be had fr as little as $2000 for those willing to make any effort (including me ).

If 65" OLEDs were available for as little as $2000 in the EU last fall, I expect OLED would have won a higher share of the premium market there as well...
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post #24 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I had sall your post about the flicker/shimmer that would kill it for me. I would found that a big problem and to me an inherent problem with there new panel tech.

Looking forward to what the reviews say about that.

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I don't want to blow this pixel 'glimmer/shimmer' out of proportion. These QLED TVs are an impressive advance in VA LCD technology.

If the glimmer/shimmer of plasma did not scare you away, you should not dismiss these QLEDs without viewing for yourself.

I believe the bigger problem will prove to be limited panel resolution, especially for darker tones...
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post #25 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't want to blow this pixel 'glimmer/shimmer' out of proportion. These QLED TVs are an impressive advance in VA LCD technology.

If the glimmer/shimmer of plasma did not scare you away, you should not dismiss these QLEDs without viewing for yourself.

I believe the bigger problem will prove to be limited panel resolution, especially for darker tones...
First indication that QLED TVs will not have UHD Premium Certification (perhaps because the panels cannot deliver a full 10-bits of effective output precision throughout the luminance range, as I suspect):

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/samsung-q9-qled-tv

"But where Samsung’s screens didn’t cut the mustard was when we asked if they complied with the UHD Alliance’s standards for a UHD Premium badge. More than one representative at the unveiling event had told us that they weren’t sure the Q9 would receive the badge and therefore likely didn’t meet one of the standards set by the UHD Alliance.

Where exactly the Q9 would falter is unclear – it’s certainly a 10-bit panel and achieves the peak luminosity set by the UHD Alliance – but the fact that we didn’t get an emphatic yes is worrying."

Not clear if the 10-bit panel was confirmed by Samsung or not. Also, if the QLED panel delivers an effective 10 bits from 5%-100% but only falls short under 5%, unclear how Samsung would respond if asked about having a 10-bit panel...
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post #26 of 419 Old 01-08-2017, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Repeat of a post I made in the QLED thread:

I did not know how to interpret this image the first time it was posted.

Now that I have looked at the QLED screens from up close, I think I know how to interpret this picture.

Each collection RGB 'stripes' represents a square pixel.

Each of these individual vertical subpixel stripes is further subdivided into 8 sub-sub-pixels, 2 columns versus 4 rows.

The individual light 'dots' in the middle of the dark central line represent a single one of these sub-sub pixels.

An entire square pixel has 6 sub-sub pixels horizontally times 8 vertically. The vertical subdivision may actually by 6 rows instead of 8 rows, which would make 6x6 sub-sub-pixels to a single pixel (rather than 8x6).

I believe that each of these 8x6 or 8x8 sub-subpixels is being controlled by its own individual LCD lightvalve which also probably has something different either in terms of crystal orientation or polarizer or something to impact light direction/polarity.

By quickly activating/deactivating different sub-subpixels, Samsung is able to scatter the light coming from an individual subpixel off in different directions quickly enough that our eyes percieve it as improved viewing angles (think of a fast searchlight ).

It's a nifty idea, it appears to vastly improve VA LCD viewing angles, but infortubately I suspect that it come at the cost of only being able to rely on the native electrical resolution of the LCD lightvalve and being unable to use time-division for effective resolution gains, at least at low lumen levels.

I saw 8-bit-like color banding on dark brown output levek. This would only be possible if the pixel were limited to 8 bits and could not turn on-and-off quickly enough to effectively deliver 10-bits of effective resolution (meaning 1/4 period time-division multiplexing.

A 10-but brown gradient pattern (or probably any color) will quickly tell whether my suspicion is justified.

But believe me, despite how difficult Samsung made it at the booth, I witnessed color-banding artifacts that would make any videophile shudder. I checked and rechecked 3 times on two seperate swings through the Samsung booth.

And the fact that they are apparently not getting UHD Premium certification on these QLED TVs gives me a strong gut feeling that m suspicion is correct and that the reason UHD Premium Certification is out of reach is that these QLED TVs are unable to deliver an effective 10 bits...

100% color volume but at only 25% of the resolution dictated by UHD Premium, that's my hunch on how to sum up these 2017 QLEDs...
That pixel picture came from this HDTVTEST article: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/qled-...1701044404.htm

"For eagle-eyed enthusiasts (that is, our readers), the most interesting change will be one that the company did not explicitly draw attention to in its presentations: the new displays’ subpixel rendering techniques. When viewed up close, the majority of the images shown on the QLED LCD panels did not appear with the traditional RGB stripe layout, but instead were displayed with a cross-hatch pattern. It turns out that each pixel is split into two domains, which are then driven with different gamma properties. The end result is the improvements in off-axis viewing angle quality. Samsung refers to the technique as Dual Pixel Structure."

And here is a paper describing these 'dual gamma' (or triple gamma) approach to improving off-angle viewing performance of VA-type LCD pixels: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...edAccess=true&

Picture of the improvement is gamma possible from 60-degrees off-angle:
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If the glimmer/shimmer of plasma did not scare you away, you should not dismiss these QLEDs without viewing for yourself.
I actually believe that shimmering was part of the reason I so digged the "plasma look". Less... surgical? I don't know if I'm making sense.

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I'm typing this on my phone and so will add more detail to the post when on my tablet, but here are my impressions of OLED and QLED from CES 2017.

First OLED. 2017 is a consolidation year for LG OLED. Showroom picture quality is what we have come to expect in 2016. No breakthroughs. Nothing really 'new' other than the new Wallpaper hanging design. That and consolidation of HDR with demos and support for all current HDR formats including Dolby Vision, Technicolor, HyperLogGamma, and HDR10 (static).

Some incremental increase in peak brightness for HDR and reduction of ABL but impossible to assess the impact of that on the showroom floor.

Unknown whether they have made any improvements to bear-black uniformity, near-black controls, or CMS controls (buggy in 2016).

LG did make strides in Audio, adding full support for Dolby Atmos to the 2017 OLEDs including full Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 decoding directly into the TVs for use with a Dolby Atmos Soundbar (a first) as well as Atmos-over-ARC like Vizio offered in 2016.

Stripped away 3D, stripped away curved screen offerings, focused on a silver bezel for the B7 (which may be exclusive to Costco) and an anodized black aluminum bezel for the C Series which matches the look of the W Series.

To recap, little in the way of true innovation other than the flashy flagship hanging-piece-of-black-glass W Series and realization of the full Dolby vision: Dolby Vision UHD Player and Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 Soundbar.


Samsung, by way of contrast, had a 2017 full of innovation in display technology..

Their 'QLED' technology appears to truly be a new breed of LCD, largely offering IPS-like viewing angles with VA-like contrast ratio and black levels.

However it is working, the new pixel is visibly different from both IPS and VA pixels, evincing a plasma-like shimmering / DSE when viewed from up close. In near-black, this shimmering becomes pronounced and is visible from 1-1.5 screen widths if viewing distance.

Brightness is great, colors are great, and Samsung is making a great deal of noise about color volume (100% DCI-P3 @ 1500 cd/m2).

So to recap, on the plus side, viewing angles have pretty much caught up with OLED (and possibly even inched into the lead when off-angle color shift of OLED is considered ); and bright HDR looks fantastic.

In the negative side, I have seen evidence of three PQ attributes that may prove to be less-than-promised:

-Blacks do not seem to be close to OLED level. There may be some nonlinearity resulting in reduced blacks at the expense of some black crush, but blacks are still 'glowing' in OLED parlance.

-there appears to be increased banding near-black in dark colors (brown). This could be due to the nonlinearity that may have been introduced.

-the near-black sparkling/shimmering is very visible from relatively close (1-1.5 screen widths) and may mean viewing distance needs to be maintained farther back than that.

For those who value perfect blacks and view in the dark, I believe OLED will retain it's crown for at least another year. For those who watch with some lights on or value brights over blacks, Samsung will retain it's crown as well and will have added to it's lead.

P.S. One more thing I should comment on is that Samsung was far more defensive at the show than LG. LG would allow me to get as close to any screen as Ivwanted and would let me stay for as long ascIvwanted. Samsung had lines on the carpet ad out a screen-widths away and would not let you inspect the screen closely (at least any screen showing any dark portion of content). If you approached a screen closer than they wanted they would shoo you away. They allowed close inspection of the off-angle demo but it was only showing bright content. This may end up being a problem for them on the show-room floor...
For me, whether or not to go OLED is largely about the degree of ABL, and secondarily about image retention/burn-in and motion performance. What can you tell us about the degree of ABL with LG OLED technology, and how it compares to the degree of ABL on late plasma models? My clear preference for my new 4K TV would be OLED, but not if they suffer from the same problems that frustrate me with my Panny 60ST60 plasma.

Once I realized the ABL on my ST60, it just drove me crazy for watching cable TV. For example, CNN constantly throws up a bright white info banner across the bottom of the image. On my Panny whenever there is that much white or bright content on part of the screen, then the other portion of the screen dims dramatically. This results in the faces of any people on the screen becoming very dark and dingy looking. Also, when watching ESPN, for example, when viewing the ticker running across the bottom of the screen, and then a bright scene starts, then the white text at the bottom in the ticker dims to about half the brightness that it was when the overall image was darker. I tried every setting I could find, but to no avail. There was no way to get rid of the ABL.

If these OLEDs have ABL on the order of my ST60, I just can't go with them.

Also, what about burn-in/image retention. We watch a lot of cable TV news and sports, which means bright corporate logos are going to be displayed for long periods of time. My 60ST60 does seem to have permanent burn-in of logos in the lower left and right corners.

Finally, what about motion performance? In the LG demo, there is one scene wherein colored pencils are moving across the screen, and they seem to, instead of moving smoothly, they jump in small increments across the screen. Is there any reason to believe the new Sony OLEDs will offer motion performance on par with their LCD models?
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What's strange to me about Samsung's choice here re: FALD as it relates to cost is that it doesn't yet seem to have had any impact on price, at least not at the large end, where the 88Q9 is supposed to price at $20k (this per Robert Z of VE), same price as the 2016 FALD 88KS9800. Maybe that price is somehow a function of nonlinear costs at that screen size, and the 65" and small versions will be priced more like their OLED competition. We'll see soon.

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What's strange to me about Samsung's choice here re: FALD as it relates to cost is that it doesn't yet seem to have had any impact on price, at least not at the large end, where the 88Q9 is supposed to price at $20k (this per Robert Z of VE), same price as the 2016 FALD 88KS9800. Maybe that price is somehow a function of nonlinear costs at that screen size, and the 65" and small versions will be priced more like their OLED competition. We'll see soon.
88" would be too big for me but I would be very interested in the prices for sizes above 65" and below 88", whatever they might be.

Also, considering how the QLED screens work, am I the only one fearing image retention/burn problems?

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