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post #2971 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Maybe I missed it during the early hours after results...but was it the lack of CMS that "doomed" the Z9 in terms of overall picture accuracy for the HDR category?

And please don't take my use of the word doomed as hyperbole. I mean it as, it has an obvious advantage in tone mapping and nits but because color was possibly ever so slightly off when next to the BVM that it just couldn't be awarded first in that category?

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From a measured numbers perspective, could be. The A1 has more DCI P3 gamut coverage than the z9, although neither have 100% coverage so there is some mapping going on there as well. I would hope that the BVM had perfect color reproduction

I'm limited by my only having a handful of hdr patterns and no generator so I can't personally measure hdr gamut tracking in depth.

I wasn't there unfortunately so hard for me to say, but just based on my own experience the z9 does suffer off axis in HDR so maybe some of the perceived lack of accuracy was viewers not being in front of the TV.
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post #2972 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:34 AM
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Forget about the winner ,each display Z9D ,A1E , E7 and Q9 have their advantages and disadvantages. Pick your poison.
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post #2973 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:44 AM
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Forget about the winner ,each display Z9D ,A1E , E7 and Q9 have their advantages and disadvantages. Pick your poison.
Boom. 'Nuf said.
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post #2974 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:05 AM
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2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Yup. Actually I'd give a range of 8'-10' for 'typical viewing distance' for that size screen. I've given distances many times, but of course he's conveniently 'forgotten' those.



No joking, the shootout judges were often examining the screen from 1-3'. No exaggeration. Differences seen from that distance only has zero impact on my purchasing decisions.


You may have said it Ken, and I may have missed it, and for that I apologize.

I need to point out, however, that your definition of normal does not describe many enthusiasts' viewing distance and is a somewhat arbitrary term. I certainly can agree with you that less than 3 feet would be an unsatisfactory viewing distance for screens 55 and up.

I don't like what this thread looks like either. I personally feel that it is primarily due to the many useless, noncontributory and mocking posts provided by people disparaging those who are appropriately exploring comparisons between different TVs, especially with regards to the shootout. It is odd to me that such people can make comments such as "LG is the best, it's always been the best, get over it, this happens every year, who needs a breakdown of the results and judging criteria" and then attribute any counterpoint to pro-Sony bias. How is this scientific? How is this tone positive or objective in any way?

Ken, you have an excellent reputation and I have no doubt that you strive to be very objective. Ultimately however, the one thing you trust is the observation of your own eyes. I just don't understand how then you discount other people's eyewitness perceptions and attribute it to bias.

EDIT: I see the mods have come through and tidied up the thread a bit

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post #2975 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:13 AM
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Now this, I think, we can all agree on as being positive and good for all. Right?!-snip
From what I've learned, we are going to find some DRAMA (collusion, fake news, death threats, Russians were involved, not the mama, and on and.......) in this also!
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post #2976 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:41 AM
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From my own reason of buying in 2017 were specifically for the W7 to handle 4K UHD discs (DV inclusive), and once I learned about Sony placing the Z9D chip in an OLED, for HDR10 disc and streaming.

I personally did not do 2017 TV for SDR... the G6 is more than enough to do that.

I look at the shootout and primarily it was mostly a SDR conclave, HDR10 feeling incidental.

I don't even see many posts here on AVS with a dedication to a 4K UHD collection, for which 2017 TV is designed to deliver.

Most people don't even know what the highest quality DV disc looks like on a LG TV or how the same compares to it in Sony dynamic HDR10 on the A1...

I expect the U.K. Shootout to explore with more focus on UHD content handling..

Joel did make a great point.. rec709 is a 1990 standard, if this is what most people are looking to 2017 for, meaning HD cable broadcasts, yes, all these TVs are the same with little differences..

I want to see someone else with the full 4K UHD disc collection opinion on these TVs.. only at that level of PQ can any performance difference be seen or even should be focused on in 2017 TV discussions.
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post #2977 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:52 AM
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Most use Uhd blurays ... no big deal

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post #2978 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post

I want to see someone else with the full 4K UHD disc collection opinion on these TVs.. only at that level of PQ can any performance difference be seen or even should be focused on in 2017 TV discussions.
While not in this thread or forum section, the 4k/HDR Master title thread has a lot of great input on how one movie looks on a posters TV and then another poster usually says how it looks on their TV, with constant comparisons going on including disc vs. streaming differences.

And it's devoid of brand bias, so very friendly.

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post #2979 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 10:59 AM
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Most use Uhd blurays ... no big deal
Owning PEII is not enough... I want to find the serious members to talk 2017 TV with who dedication to UHD have them owning titles like The 5th Wave..

PEII looks good on any 2017 TV.
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post #2980 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 11:05 AM
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2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017

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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Don't you think that any camera , be it digital or emulsion film, introduces it's own contrast, resolution and colour issues ?


Exactly, you need to be shooting raw not jpeg. You need to shoot a reference card in the same lighting and use that for white balance. Then you need to track the histogram and adjust exposure to not crush black or blow out White, which probably means two pic, one for accurate black and one for accurate white.

Then for this to make any difference you need to calibrate you PC with something like Calman.


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post #2981 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 11:09 AM
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Owning PEII is not enough... I want to find the serious members to talk 2017 TV with who dedication to UHD have them owning titles like The 5th Wave..

PEII looks good on any 2017 TV.
Like vincent theo i dont se Planet earth 2 as a referance set.
The 5th wave nobody sinks that low on the Uhd selection out there.

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post #2982 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 11:19 AM
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Exactly, you need to be shooting raw not jpeg. You need to shoot a reference card in the same lighting and use that for white balance. Then you need to track the histogram and adjust exposure to not crush black or blow out White, which probably means two pic, one for accurate black and one for accurate white.

Then for this to make any difference you need to calibrate you PC with something like CalMan.


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Yup, all that. Except the white balance is known if you calibrate, and don't need a card because TVs are self-illuminating.

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post #2983 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 11:26 AM
 
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The 5th wave nobody sinks that low on the Uhd selection out there.

I didn't even sink that low for my Blu-ray collection

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post #2984 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 11:51 AM
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Luckily I'm not a serious member, and do not own The 5th Wave.
I don't have such discerning tastes


On a side note, for such discerning viewers. It would be greatly appreciated over in the Blu-ray PQ tier threads I'm sure.
People willing to take one for the team and rate those kinds of titles would be welcomed.
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post #2985 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 12:17 PM
 
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Luckily I'm not a serious member, and do not own The 5th Wave.
I don't have such discerning tastes


On a side note, for such discerning viewers. It would be greatly appreciated over in the Blu-ray PQ tier threads I'm sure.
People willing to take one for the team and rate those kinds of titles would be welcomed.
Lol. Reminds me of when Skyline came out. Got a lot of great reviews for PQ and Audio so I decided to watch it. I still want those two hours back to this day.

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post #2986 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:01 PM
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Luckily I'm not a serious member, and do not own The 5th Wave.
I don't have such discerning tastes


On a side note, for such discerning viewers. It would be greatly appreciated over in the Blu-ray PQ tier threads I'm sure.
People willing to take one for the team and rate those kinds of titles would be welcomed.
Ken and I had this conversation and where we are both similar is we watch PQ and not mostly for story etc.

I've watched The 5th Wave 2X and I can tell you the HDR is dark but couldn't tell you what the movie is about past "it's about aliens".
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I don't care how good the image is, if the story sucks what's the point? Might as well watch demos all day long.

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post #2988 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:25 PM
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Ken and I had this conversation and where we are both similar is we watch PQ and not mostly for story etc.

I've watched The 5th Wave 2X and I can tell you the HDR is dark but couldn't tell you what the movie is about past "it's about aliens".
So Ken and yourself are now evaluators of the picture quality of Blu-rays and UHD movies. At least we have come to some agreement!
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I don't care how good the image is, if the story sucks what's the point? Might as well watch demos all day long.
I have done that
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post #2990 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Ken and I had this conversation and where we are both similar is we watch PQ and not mostly for story etc.

I've watched The 5th Wave 2X and I can tell you the HDR is dark but couldn't tell you what the movie is about past "it's about aliens".
So Ken and yourself are now evaluators of the picture quality of Blu-rays and UHD movies. At least we have come to some agreement!
Why else does one spend car money on TV?

A $600 Roku TV can deliver the story.
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I have done that
Me too.

You guys are funny, but in a good way.
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post #2992 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:33 PM
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Why else does one spend car money on TV?

A $600 Roku TV can deliver the story.
That's true. A good story can be filmed on an iPhone, if it's compelling it doesn't matter what it's delivered on. I think HDR and 4K is there to add to the experience, not be the experience. But that's my opinion. Whatever floats your boat is cool with me.
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post #2993 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Why else does one spend car money on TV?

A $600 Roku TV can deliver the story.
Total immersion.

If you are aware of the TV, the best movie in the world is going to be less enjoyable.

Still-visible letterbox bars didn't cut it for me with plasma.

Local dimming artifacts didn't cut if for me with FALD LED/LCD.

With my OLED, there are occassional dark scenes or pans where the TV makes it's presence felt and i trudes on my sense of immersion, but those are rate and by far the least of current evils.

Bad content will never be immersive (too aware of the bone-headed writer and/or director), so trying to enjoy that on the best TV in the world will never be for me .
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post #2994 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:40 PM
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Actually 7 feet is more like the minimum for enjoying 4K UHD detail on a 65", not the ideal. Joe Silver addressed this during the shootout, 1.5X screen height is considered optimal, in other words 4-5 feet from the screen. Joel noted he uses a 58" TV this way, as a PC monitor. I am using a 65" in that manner right now. Long story short, OLEDs are too small for the distance people view them at, if appreciating 4K resolution is the goal. Moving up to 77" does nothing to fix that.
It's been a while since I saw the seating distance chart. 7 feet will still allow you to resolve some of the additional detail provided by UHD (even if it's not the full enchilada). In any case, it's good resolution isn't as important as contrast ratio and color saturation/accuracy in the hierarchy scheme of PQ or otherwise we would all need projectors to enjoy this hobby. You can get away with extra detail appreciation on a 77" at a greater distance than a 65", and seating distances can be adjusted making this less of a "gotcha" than you seem to be inferring.

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post #2995 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:49 PM
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It's been a while since I saw the seating distance chart. 7 feet will still allow you to resolve some of the additional detail provided by UHD (even if it's not the full enchilada). In any case, it's good resolution isn't as important as contrast ratio and color saturation/accuracy in the hierarchy scheme of PQ or otherwise we would all need projectors to enjoy this hobby. You can get away with extra detail appreciation on a 77" at a greater distance than a 65", and seating distances can be adjusted making this less of a "gotcha" than you seem to be inferring.
Yes, the 77" lets you sit a couple feet further away before the benefit of 4K is lost (assuming normal vision). There's not gotcha, 77" OLEDs and expensive and 85"+ OLEDs don't exist. And yeah , many comments ago, I was mentioning how projection is another way to experience director's intent. Part of that is being able to get that 4K resolution, and part of it is simply filling your field-of-view with the screen the way a director likely imagined she/he would when they were creating the movie.

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post #2996 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 01:54 PM
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I won't disagree with that statement. I'm lucky that whatever room I use for reference watching will always be light controlled. Not possible for the majority I understand.
My room isn't light-controlled in the day either...but with the setting of the sun, it's all gravy and thus when I really get serious with viewing and wouldn't have it any other way aside from emissive.
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Let's get back to the topic of the thread.
Are we ever going to see the results of the voting?
Al, should the A1 have won the shootout? lol

@imagic , maybe you can set up an AVS voting for the sets in the shootout and we can see what the users have to say?

Maybe we can put a list together of what users would like to see in next year's shootout?
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I don't care how good the image is, if the story sucks what's the point? Might as well watch demos all day long.
Not picking on you specifically, just commenting more generally since I see this a lot (not just here, but in real life too), that different people watch things for different reasons. One is not better than the other. I see this kind of talk a lot- "Omg, Transformers/Fast&Furious/Comic Book movie is such trash, the story wasn't even that good." If you're going to watch those movies for the story, then you're the problem, not the movie, lol (because that's not how those movies portray themselves). You're grabbing the wrong tool (hammer/Transformers) for the job and then blaming the tool for not being what you needed (a shovel/Indie movie). Not everything needs to be a serious indie movie with some deeper meaning about the meaning of life. Sometimes an aesthetic movie with impressive visuals that has a conventional/predictable (and perhaps shallow in depth) storyline is what you want to see- eye candy and not have to think too much. Other times, the deeper, more thought-provoking movies are what's on the menu and they are great in their own ways too. Neither is necessarily good/bad, right/wrong. They all serve their own purposes and it's better to have a wide range of options; if everything was a deep, meaningful, story-driven movie then life would be pretty boring, IMO. Variety is the spice of life, lol.

Sometimes I go see a movie, like Transformers, and I'm just wowed by the visuals. Sometimes I couldn't even tell you the details about the movie I saw but I still enjoyed it due to the visual experience. Nothing wrong with enjoying a good story, I do, but nothing wrong with enjoying some nice eye candy either (which I also do)! At the end of the day, it's all entertainment. As long as you're entertained, that's all that matters, lol.

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post #2999 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 02:08 PM
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Not picking on you specifically, just commenting more generally since I see this a lot (not just here, but in real life too), that different people watch things for different reasons. One is not better than the other. I see this kind of talk a lot- "Omg, Transformers/Fast&Furious/Comic Book movie is such trash, the story wasn't even that good." If you're going to watch those movies for the story, then you're the problem, not the movie, lol (because that's not how those movies portray themselves). You're grabbing the wrong tool (hammer/Transformers) for the job and then blaming the tool for not being what you needed (a shovel/Indie movie). Not everything needs to be a serious indie movie with some deeper meaning about the meaning of life. Sometimes an aesthetic movie with impressive visuals that has a conventional/predictable (and perhaps shallow in depth) storyline is what you want to see- eye candy and not have to think too much. Other times, the deeper, more thought-provoking movies are what's on the menu and they are great in their own ways too. Neither is necessarily good/bad, right/wrong. They all serve their own purposes and it's better to have a wide range of options; if everything was a deep, meaningful, story-driven movie then life would be pretty boring, IMO. Variety is the spice of life, lol.

Sometimes I go see a movie, like Transformers, and I'm just wowed by the visuals. Sometimes I couldn't even tell you the details about the movie I saw but I still enjoyed it due to the visual experience. Nothing wrong with enjoying a good story, I do, but nothing wrong with enjoying some nice eye candy either (which I also do)! At the end of the day, it's all entertainment. As long as you're entertained, that's all that matters, lol.
Oh I agree. I love the Transformers movies and I watch horror movies most people would find despicable LOL. But even with the eye candy there's gotta be something to connect to for the viewer. Again just my opinion.

I'll let this thread get back on topic so we can finally all agree on the shootout winner.
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post #3000 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Let's get back to the topic of the thread.
Are we ever going to see the results of the voting?
Al, should the A1 have won the shootout? lol

@imagic , maybe you can set up an AVS voting for the sets in the shootout and we can see what the users have to say?

Maybe we can put a list together of what users would like to see in next year's shootout?
I like the idea but some other poster here said that there have not been enough A1E sets sold a lot more LG's have been sold since production in 2015. Could get biased!
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