2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 103 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3061 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JNayAV View Post
Serious question as the LG rep, and at least for 1 day a Sony rep, being there has been brought up several times.... In what capacity were they there? Did the rep give any sign off on calibration reports? If was marketing side, I'd really doubt they'd even know what to look for on a calibration report. Saying the rep being there/not being there implies they in some way were involved in the calibration process has not been verified as far as I can tell. Members that read and respond in these forums were actually responsible for some of the calibrations judged at this event, so should be easy to verify.

If a rep was just there in the capacity of a general rep, why is it have to assume he's doing QA on the shootout. This is a large event so seems just as likely a rep would be there to answer questions for potential customers. The shootout was only a portion of the overall event correct? If the Sony rep had other events to attend, why is that deemed strange?

For clarification, what other posters mentioned the settings changed between days 1 and 2 other than Al?
The clarification I'll add here is that it was a very, very small show and not much else was going on. The shootout was the "main event" this year.

Samsung and Vizio were not explicitly voluntary participants in the shootout. The TVs were purchased, calibrated, and voted on, but those companies did not "participate." Sony did stop by on day 1, and of course Phil Jones of Sony gets the thanks for providing his personal mastering monitor to the proceedings, but he did not stick around. Westinghouse explicitly asked to be included, BTW.

And LG? Tim Alessi, Sr. Director - Product Marketing at LG Electronics was there both days, and he collected the awards. I don't exactly know who else was there from LG, but when the awards were given out, there was a whole team of LG PR folks in the building (a couple of whom I know from the days they worked for either Samsung or Panasonic), and nobody from any other company. Presumably LG had a good feeling it would win, to have so many folks dedicate time to being there. No other company's reps bothered to show up for the announcement of the winner(s).

Someone, in an earlier comment, mentioned there was an LG tech there. Maybe someone like @WiFi-Spy , @jrref , or @Al Leong can confirm real quick?

So, LG was there from beginning to end in terms of having a presence at the shootout. Did it help with the win? I do not know. Anyhow, that's all there is to report. Clearly, LG was focused on a win.
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post #3062 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:06 AM
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OK folks, regarding the HDTVtest UK TV Shootout event let's take the conversation over HERE:

2017 HDTVtest TV Shootout | Sunday 13th August in London UK



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post #3063 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:08 AM
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Yes, absolutely agree that the HDR performance gap has closed between the OLEDs and the ZD9 with respect to the 2016 OLEDs as compared with the 2017 OLEDs
.
Many of the 2016 oled owners are completely happy, the gap between the 2017 and 2016 Oled isn't huge. Some will disagree and its fine.

I probably wait till 2018 for another display.Maybe we finally see a 1,000 nits Oled with much better improvements.
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post #3064 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:10 AM
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The clarification I'll add here is that it was a very, very small show and not much else was going on. The shootout was the "main event" this year.

Samsung and Vizio were not explicitly voluntary participants in the shootout. The TVs were purchased, calibrated, and voted on, but those companies did not "participate." Sony did have reps who stopped by on day 1, and of course Phil Jones of Sony gets the thanks for providing his personal mastering monitor, but he did not stick around. Westinghouse explicitly asked to be included, BTW.

And LG? Tim Alessi, Sr. Director - Product Marketing at LG Electronics was there both days, and he collected the awards. I don't exactly know who else was there from LG, but when the awards were given out, there was a whole team of LG PR folks in the building (a couple of whom I know from the days they worked for either Samsung or Panasonic), and nobody from any other company. Presumably LG had a good feeling it would win, to have so many folks dedicate time to being there. No other company's reps bothered to show up for the announcement of the winner(s).

Someone, in an earlier comment, mentioned there was an LG tech there. Maybe someone like @WiFi-Spy , @jrref , or @Al Leong can confirm real quick?

So, LG was there from beginning to end in terms of having a presence at the shootout. Did it help with the win? I do not know. Anyhow, that's all there is to report. Clearly, LG was focused on a win.
From LG, Sam Ahn and a picture quality person were there both days and the setup.
Pablo ( I forget his last name) was there from Sony for the setup and day 1.

From my observations, these folks were there observing and answered questions when asked, but I can tell you when we streamed on the LG and the picture looked dark, the engineer from Korea got really animated and talked to the calibration team about the settings. Nothing wrong with this. He just wanted to make sure that the settings were optimal to give the best picture.

Again, they were extremely professional.

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post #3065 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
OK folks, regarding the HDTVtest UK TV Shootout event let's take the conversation over HERE:

2017 HDTVtest TV Shootout | Sunday 13th August in London UK



.
So this shootout should be really interesting given a couple of facts:
1) Vincent really knows the pros and cons of these sets based on his video's hitting all the topics.
2) They are saying that they will be using compressed content, I would assume like you would see with cable and streaming.
3) The much anticipated Panasonic will be there.

Edit: 4) Ken Ross won't be there
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post #3066 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:26 AM
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Many of the 2016 oled owners are completely happy, the gap between the 2017 and 2016 Oled isn't huge. Some will disagree and its fine.

I probably wait till 2018 for another display.Maybe we finally see a 1,000 nits Oled with much better improvements.
It looks as though top-emission will not be in production by 2018, so 2019 is probably the earliest we'll see any significant boost in OLED brightness...
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post #3067 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:28 AM
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These were LG and Sony engineers. LG also flew in a picture quality person from Korea as well. What they basically did was to make sure the sets were displaying the content properly. If something didn't look right, they would consult with the calibration team to see if a setting was incorrect, etc...

And no, they didn't sign off on the calibration results which were printed and available for anyone to look at.

Edit: as far as the settings changing from day 1 to 2, I was told that they did some "tune-up" on day 2 because the sets were drifting. I believe these were new, right out of the box and not burned in for 200 hours for example. There was so much going on day 2 that I didn't get a chance to find out what changed but I also agree that the A1 looked better on day 1.
Can you explain further on "drifting" how so? Thanks.
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post #3068 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:34 AM
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From LG, Sam Ahn and a picture quality person were there both days and the setup.
Pablo ( I forget his last name) was there from Sony for the setup and day 1.

From my observations, these folks were there observing and answered questions when asked, but I can tell you when we streamed on the LG and the picture looked dark, the engineer from Korea got really animated and talked to the calibration team about the settings. Nothing wrong with this. He just wanted to make sure that the settings were optimal to give the best picture.

Again, they were extremely professional.
I really don't uderstand the folks complaining and seeding conspiracy theories about company reps and engineers being present. These folks probably also want to see the Indy 500 run without pit crews.

It's as though they think these engineers took the jdges out drinking the night before and slipped them a micky to cloud their judgement.

LG invested more in assuring their WOLEDs put their best foot forward. Who knows whether this helped them to do better, but it certainly assured they wouldn't do worse than they were capable of (for some bone-headed reason or another).

I also appreciate the fact that they woud have engineers present to oversee how their TVs performed - I often have the conern that these AV Engineering teams live in a bubble...
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post #3069 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:41 AM
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The Panny could win the SDR category since is probably the most accurate (colorwise), but it wont win the HDR category.
Can't disagree with that .
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post #3070 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:49 AM
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That's where any and all future shootout threads belong.
lol i didn't even know that a UK Shootout thread was posted there last year up until today. So what happened this year? Why didn't you folks started a NYC Shootout thread over there to? btw i always felt TV Shootouts belongs in the Display Calibration Forum but that is just me..
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post #3071 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:55 AM
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I also appreciate the fact that they woud have engineers present to oversee how their TVs performed - I often have the conern that these AV Engineering teams live in a bubble...
This. This is very important for our hobby no matter what TV you feel is better, etc etc.

Right now, at the end of the day, LG is the one supplying panels and doing the brunt work to keep OLED expanding forward. That they were there in capacity to be involved, discuss, and see things from "our side" (calibration, real content critique) is huge for all of us. It means they are not just living in an R&D bubble, oblivious to the pulse of what drives passion as representatives of a niche community (audio/videophiles).

Coupled with the news that was buried pages back of LG investing a significant amount going forward, we should all be happy of what transpired at the shootout regardless of conspiracy theory or winners being crowned.

Just my feeling.

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post #3072 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 09:58 AM
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lol i didn't even know that a UK Shootout thread was posted there last year up until today. So what happened this year? Why didn't you folks started a NYC Shootout thread over there to? btw i always felt TV Shootouts belongs in the Display Calibration Forum but that is just me..
OK that's another good spot.

I did not start a separate thread, nor am I interested in "owning" a discussion of these shootouts, either this one or in the future. I linked my report on the results to this thread, because this is where the conversation was/is happening.

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...snip...

I also appreciate the fact that they woud have engineers present to oversee how their TVs performed - I often have the conern that these AV Engineering teams live in a bubble...
I think its a great idea if engineers from all the manufacturers were present to see how well or how poorly their displays compare. Maybe they'll see something that they didn't implement because it'd cost a few dollars but see that they have to do it anyway if they want to compete.

Don't know about you guys, but I'm very interested in seeing how well Panasonic does over at the UK shootout.
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I dont have time reading all the posts, but I am sure Al Leong must be so mad LG Oled won this year Shootout haha
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Let's go OLED and never go back LCD!
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I think its a great idea if engineers from all the manufacturers were present to see how well or how poorly their displays compare. Maybe they'll see something that they didn't implement because it'd cost a few dollars but see that they have to do it anyway if they want to compete.

Don't know about you guys, but I'm very interested in seeing how well Panasonic does over at the UK shootout.
Here's a really shocking fact . All the major TV makers buy TVs from all their competitors and run them through their own labs where they have top-of-the-line gear to perform comparisons and evaluations.

As I suggested some days ago, perhaps the best bet would be to have the engineers armwrestle to determine who wins.
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post #3076 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 10:29 AM
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Don't know about you guys, but I'm very interested in seeing how well Panasonic does over at the UK shootout.
I was watching vicent video comparison between this two , Sony 2.2 gamma during dark scenes ,the Panasonic 2.4. Do to this the Panasonic have more depth and better black levels.It is also more accurate colorwise.
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I was watching vicent video comparison between this two , Sony 2.2 gamma during dark scenes ,the Panasonic 2.4. Do to this the Panasonic have more depth and better black levels.It is also more accurate colorwise.
So the gamma setting on the Panasonic gives it more depth, black levels and color accuracy than Sony?
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So the gamma setting on the Panasonic gives it more depth, black levels and color accuracy than Sony?
That's what vincent says on the video.
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This. This is very important for our hobby no matter what TV you feel is better, etc etc.

Right now, at the end of the day, LG is the one supplying panels and doing the brunt work to keep OLED expanding forward. That they were there in capacity to be involved, discuss, and see things from "our side" (calibration, real content critique) is huge for all of us. It means they are not just living in an R&D bubble, oblivious to the pulse of what drives passion as representatives of a niche community (audio/videophiles).

Coupled with the news that was buried pages back of LG investing a significant amount going forward, we should all be happy of what transpired at the shootout regardless of conspiracy theory or winners being crowned.

Just my feeling.

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I also appreciate this! I think we all do. I think we should have MORE company engineers presenting their best work and receiving feedback.

Again, "conspiracy theory" was a term used disparagingly in this thread. To my knowledge it does not truly describe anyone's actual perspective.


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Here's a really shocking fact . All the major TV makers buy TVs from all their competitors and run them through their own labs where they have top-of-the-line gear to perform comparisons and evaluations.

As I suggested some days ago, perhaps the best bet would be to have the engineers armwrestle to determine who wins.
There is a significant difference.


When LG pE Engineers purchased a Sony X9, they do not know how to optimize settings in the way a Sony Engineer would (and vica-versa).

They also have a bias to show their offerings in the best light versus competition (to their management).

These shootouts with each vendor's pit crews tuning their respective displays in the best possible manner (or advising 3rd-party calibrators on how best to do that tuning) to match a reference display are a unique opportunity for TV vendors to see how they measure up against their competition in a semi-objective light... (out of their bubble ).
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Here's a really shocking fact . All the major TV makers buy TVs from all their competitors and run them through their own labs where they have top-of-the-line gear to perform comparisons and evaluations.

As I suggested some days ago, perhaps the best bet would be to have the engineers armwrestle to determine who wins.
Which could lead credence as to why a certain supplier would be confident that their product will win.... especially when said product is a repeat winner showing that their product seems to line up with what that particular award seems to test and look for...... hmmmmm......

But it's probably just collusion

As to JimP's point, what an engineer does with their tests and what people out in the world do may be completely different. So to an engineer it certainly can still be interesting to see what others will do with your product.


For the company I work for, we test everything prior to customer delivery so know how everything works and checks out good. Yet we always still go to the customer and see their test just so we can see if they do anything differently or learn something for future product. But in those instances we never have any say on their test, we are merely observers and there to answer questions. Sounds like this is exactly what happened here.
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So the gamma setting on the Panasonic gives it more depth, black levels and color accuracy than Sony?
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That's what vincent says on the video.
So I still do not see the argument of 2.2 Sony and 2.4 Panasonic makes Panasonic better at all that listed above. Uncorrelated comparison for the two settings!
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So the gamma setting on the Panasonic gives it more depth, black levels and color accuracy than Sony?
Assuming ambient light is low enough to allows the eye's sensitivity to be sufficient, a gamma of 2.4 displays better shadow detail than a gamma of 2.2.

Gamma should have no impact on 'color accuracy' but if the reference monitor is using a gamma of 2.4, a display with gamma at 2.2 is going to present a different image (more wased-out, less contrast/punch).
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Assuming ambient light is low enough to allows the eye's sensitivity to be sufficient, a gamma of 2.4 displays better shadow detail than a gamma of 2.2.

Gamma should have no impact on 'color accuracy' but if the reference monitor is using a gamma of 2.4, a display with gamma at 2.2 is going to present a different image (more wased-out, less contrast/punch).
So the Sony calibration requires the gamma to stay at 2.2 and the Panasonic calibrates to a better gamma, why?
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That's what vincent says on the video.
So don't have the crap storm like a few days ago, which video are you referring too?

It would make sense if it were 2 separate items. The Panasonic has better Color accuracy in general, and delivers better black details due to the gamma 2.4
If their marketing material isn't just that, marketing, seems likely that Panasonic will have better color accuracy due to their included influence from industry professionals
Could be the best mish-mash of pros/cons from the LG and Sony sets as long as okay giving up the DV capability. But seems from attendees at the shootout, include Al, suggest particular sets implementation of HDR10 processing can in some respects make up for, or even beat, DV.
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So don't have the crap storm like a few days ago, which video are you referring too?

It would make sense if it were 2 separate items. The Panasonic has better Color accuracy in general, and delivers better black details due to the gamma 2.4
If their marketing material isn't just that, marketing, seems likely that Panasonic will have better color accuracy due to their included influence from industry professionals
Could be the best mish-mash of pros/cons from the LG and Sony sets as long as okay giving up the DV capability. But seems from attendees at the shootout, include Al, suggest particular sets implementation of HDR10 processing can in some respects make up for, or even beat, DV.

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I still don't buy it. Two totally mutually exclusive items cannot make Panasonic the better at the stuff quoted above. Maybe some of our great calibrators on this thread can shed some light!
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I still don't buy it. Two totally mutually exclusive items cannot make Panasonic the better at the stuff quoted above. Maybe some of our great calibrators on this thread can shed some light!

So you think that the Sony is more accurate than the Panasonic?
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Crampton & Moore/HDTVTest 2017 U.K. TV SHOOTOUT TRAILER
https://youtu.be/x4Kk9pZjHG8

Last edited by MATT J; 07-28-2017 at 11:25 AM.
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post #3090 of 3544 Old 07-28-2017, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
So you think that the Sony is more accurate than the Panasonic?
That is not what I am saying. I just think that these settings for both and gamma being the reason why Panasonic is better doesn't make sense.
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