2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 5270Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1741 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:41 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Commercial Theaters are behind in PQ. Just because a theater have their limitation doesn't mean thats how the directors want the movie to look like.
Oh sure, you could spend all day going over the hypotheticals, limitations of technology, etc. But the reality remains... Movies are made and meant to be watched the big screens. Anyone who denies that is kinda, you know, acting like an ostrich with the old head-in-the-sand thing. Know what I'm saying?

Yes, directors wish movie screens had infinite contrast and total human vision gamut coverage.

The point remains, owners of TVs with the capabilities that we're discussing here are such a tiny audience, it's simply not what directors are thinking of when they are filming a movie. They are thinking of movie theaters.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1742 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:41 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanman View Post
Please take a look at JVC DLA X570R (under $4k), Optoma UHD 60 or 65 (~$2500), Benq HT8050 (under $8k) and a good screen VAapex PRO ($200 for 92").
Uh, what for? They are all limited by the optics of the projector. HDR content is basically incompatible with current projectors. All you can do is raise the black level while trying to get out higher peak whites and make the gamma curve a different shape to fake HDR. When they come up with a way to keep the same blacks and get higher peak whites they might have something. HDR is meant for flat panels (OLED and FALD LCD) which can boost peak whites without washing out the black levels across the entire frame due to internal reflections in a projector's optics.
Stuntman_Mike likes this.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1743 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:43 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It seems to me that some ''large scale'' movies look best on a huge screen but most movies one might as well watch on a TV. How do you feel about that? We got this 65 inch TVs Shootout, if one is suppost to watch movies on a projector and only series etc..on the TV then what is the Shootout good for i wonder. Game Of Thrones episodes?
I think another aspect of picture quality is whether you're actually appreciating the extra detail provided by 4K. With most TVs, the way most people watch, they simply are not. Projection makes it a lot easier to fill your field of vision with nice glorious 4K content.

A big screen provides a sense of immersion that you would otherwise have to sit just a few feet away from a TV to experience. It's especially nice to have that extra screen size so you can sit back if you are watching with another person. With a big screen both people are centered. With a TV, neither person is centered.

This is a crucial component of how directors envision movies being watched. But sure, some directors either don't have that vision, or are making a "small" movie that does not necessarily demand a huge screen.

But who in the home theater hobby is paying big bucks just to watch small movies?

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 07-18-2017 at 10:47 AM.
imagic is offline  
 
post #1744 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:44 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 31,916
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6595 Post(s)
Liked: 7301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Dolby's in-lab and Sony's in-TV processes are doing the same thing as per the Sony rep at the shootout.. There's an override for sure happing with DV on the W7... the contrast looks like "Dynamic Contrast" on the Medium setting with regular HDR10 content, but in the Dolby Vision Cinema settings, Dynamic Contrast is Off.. I wouldn't be surprised if the same software "algorithm" Sony's dynamic HDR object process is comprised of, is a replication of a reverse engineering of Dolby Vision's process..

Samsung is trying to "standardize" their version HDR10+, but Sony wants to keep their "Magic Dust" all to themselves... Then we have Technicolor and HLG waiting in the wings.. again, a mixed bag of confusion.

I do know this, I am watching the Resident Evil Vendetta 4K UHD DV disc now on the W7 and its the only time I feel the W7 and A1E look exactly (DV edging out by 10% better) the same with HDR content.. the color volume, fidelity, black level handling, motion, everything with the DV discs on the LG is when the all the things that disturbs me about the LG HDR10 and SDR handling doesn't show itself...

I gather due to the delivery of Dolby Vision being tethered to the EDID of the display (same thing Sony's dynamic HDR does) the highlights are dithered down from 4000nits using a separate (and better) tone mapping method than the LG HDR10 method and also, the DV disc dark level performance is better than the LG HDR10 dark levels. I'm not seeing blown highlights or posterized black crush on the DV discs on the W7, the brightest stuff looks to hit the ceiling of what the max capability of the panel is without looking clipped/blown.

On screen, some of this HDR highlights I believe is hitting right under 1000 nits, but how can this be measured?

I don't understand why there's not more Dolby Vision discs but this is the second week in a row a DV disc have come in the new releases..

Not to be controversial, but I don't see any palate difference from Dolby Vision and Sony X1E HDR Color, regular HDR10 (on other TVs and on the LG) just looks stale in comparison IMO.
Manufacturers and their reps can say a lot of things that may or may not be true. Often they are not true. In this case I'm not sure I buy it. Why? Because DV has instructions, on a scene by scene basis, that's based on how the disc producers saw the most accurate rendition on the target display. Sony's spin is still a guess and is not based on what the producers had in mind, but rather what Sony thought was the best rendition for its own display. In certain scenes it may be an excellent match, but in other scenes there may be more significant deviations from true DV.

Until we get many more DV encoded discs, and compare those scene by scene with the HDR10 version, we won't know for sure.
King Richard likes this.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #1745 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:48 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 31,916
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6595 Post(s)
Liked: 7301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
I'm starting to become disenchanted with HDR in general. It's starting to feel gimmicky. The luminance side is great, but the colors are just too much. Half the time, I feel like I've set the picture mode to "Vivid" but with a normal color temp. Everyone looks like they have a sunburn, or it was very hot where they shot the scene. I want to have a discussion with the makeup person. In short, it's driving me crazy. I can turn down the basic color setting to make it better, but I can see that the color balance is way off. This whole thing about color "pop" doesn't add to the experience when it's over-emphasized and inaccurate.

I understand that an experienced calibrator can probably tame things, but if there is a FW update that comes down, there's a good possibility that either the DVGR file will be updated, or the HDR-10 color behavior will change to the point that it necessitates recalibrating.

For the common folk, regular calibrations are not going to happen.

Do you think that things will settle down at some point where HDR will look fairly close out of the box? As it stands right now, SDR just looks better for watching most content including UHD. Even with HDR mapped content - SDR is better.
And for much of the HDR content out there, I agree with this. I've said for a long time it feels and looks gimmicky. Street lights at night that are exponentially brighter than anything we see with our own eyes? Colors that are simply too ramped up? Interior scenes with exterior windows that are exponentially brighter than anything we see with our own eyes?

Yeah, there's a long way to go for HDR and although it can look very good, at this point I'm much less than excited.
tmdorsey, pos1121 and sonoftumble like this.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #1746 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:52 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And for much of the HDR content out there, I agree with this. I've said for a long time it feels and looks gimmicky. Street lights at night that are exponentially brighter than anything we see with our own eyes? Colors that are simply too ramped up? Interior scenes with exterior windows that are exponentially brighter than anything we see with our own eyes?

Yeah, there's a long way to go for HDR and although it can look very good, at this point I'm much less than excited.
Lol, well then, as I've been rambling on about, it may be projected HDR is for you! It doesn't have the crazy-bright peak highlights, but does carry the expanded color gamut that is a 100% match for the DCI/P3 color space used in commercial cinema. And the 10-bit gradients in the shadow areas create very nice clean imagery. And sit at a comfortable distance and enjoy 4K!

On a separate note, interior scenes with exterior windows are actually exhibiting tremendous contrast ratio when you see it with their own eyes. We're still not at the point where a camera can easily capture it. I know because I shot interiors for a living for 2 decades and dabbled in HDR tone mapping for just as long. Reality is still beating reproduction, by a lot, even if it's just you standing around in your living room with the windows open.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1747 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:52 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Oh sure, you could spend all day going over the hypotheticals, limitations of technology, etc. But the reality remains... Movies are made and meant to be watched the big screens. Anyone who denies that is kinda, you know, acting like an ostrich with the old head-in-the-sand thing. Know what I'm saying?

Yes, directors wish movie screens had infinite contrast and total human vision gamut coverage.

The point remains, owners of TVs with the capabilities that we're discussing here are such a tiny audience, it's simply not what directors are thinking of when they are filming a movie. They are thinking of movie theaters.
Yes, because they make their money in the movie theater, not when you watch at home. But they don't do critical visual work on their movies watching it projected. They do that on calibrated reference monitors like the Sony one at the shootout. I'm sure they give the thing a watch on a projector at a few points to make sure the limitations of the projector didn't hide what they wanted, but you're not going to convince anyone that a typical commercial theater in the US is the reference standard.
King Richard likes this.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1748 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:52 AM
Censored By LG Payola
 
Al Leong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Downingtown PA
Posts: 1,669
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1424 Post(s)
Liked: 1787
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
except sony doesn't have "dynamic" hdr and doesn't do the same thing at all, and nothing close to the same thing.
I'm sure Sony slapped their names on the LG display and are "shucking and jiving" the public...

Also Acoustic Surface is not real, it's the woofer really doing all the sound too...

LG can also switch to HDMI DCI and Adobe RGB color gamuts..

Black frame insertion is a myth

Because the LG won the shootout.. it has to be all the same!

Anything to make your purchase choice feel better buddy.

Current:
Sony A1E OLED 4K Ultra HD x2 | W7 | 65G6 | UN65JS9500FXZA | UN65JU7100FXZA | XBR-X900B | VPL-VW675ES | VPL-VW350ES | UBD-K8500 x2 | OPPO UDP-203 x3 | UBP-X800 x2 | OPPO BDP-103D | OPPO BDP-105D

Sony Vision 2.1 A1E settings

Last edited by Al Leong; 07-18-2017 at 10:57 AM.
Al Leong is online now  
post #1749 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 10:56 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Yes, because they make their money in the movie theater, not when you watch at home. But they don't do critical visual work on their movies watching it projected. They do that on calibrated reference monitors like the Sony one at the shootout. I'm sure they give the thing a watch on a projector at a few points to make sure the limitations of the projector didn't hide what they wanted, but you're not going to convince anyone that a typical commercial theater in the US is the reference standard.
But even when mastering a movie for commercial cinema on a monitor, they're not mastering to 1000 nits and HDR for a theater. That's just something that's done for the home version.

And yes, you can be certain a director checks the final result on a projector. Are you kidding?

And no, typical theaters are not the reference standard for consumer-oriented commercial cinema. But a Dolby Cinema auditorium is. IMAX is. I mean, seriously, are most TVs out there the reference standard? Or are just a tiny slice of flagship TVs from a few companies the reference standard?
Al Leong likes this.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 07-18-2017 at 11:03 AM.
imagic is offline  
post #1750 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
losservatore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 6,468
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2656 Post(s)
Liked: 2432
Don't worry hopefully Samsung improve their poor contrast performance on their next generation.

It seems like you are trying to say that the contrast on the samsung is fine because comercial cinemas also have poor contrast.

Yes is fine but not better.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-18-2017 at 11:20 AM.
losservatore is offline  
post #1751 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
But even when mastering a movie for commercial cinema on a monitor, they're not mastering to 1000 nits and HDR for a theater. That's just something that's done for the home version.

And yes, you can be certain a director checks the final result on a projector. Are you kidding?

And no, typical theaters are not the reference standard for consumer-oriented commercial cinema. But a Dolby Cinema auditorium is. IMAX is. I mean, seriously, are most TVs out there the reference standard? Or are just a tiny slice of flagship TVs from a few companies the reference standard?
Your argument makes no logical sense. This is like arguing that because pop music is mixed with considerations for how it sounds on the radio and on someone's phone with cheap earbuds that they are the reference standard for music listening.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1752 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:12 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Your argument makes no logical sense. This is like arguing that because pop music is mixed with considerations for how it sounds on the radio and on someone's phone with cheap earbuds that they are the reference standard for music listening.
!!Whatever you say!!!

Dolby Cinema theater = cheap earbuds because it's not an OLED? Is that your argument? Or is it that commercial theaters = pop music????
Al Leong likes this.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 07-18-2017 at 11:17 AM.
imagic is offline  
post #1753 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
tanman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 694
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Uh, what for? They are all limited by the optics of the projector. HDR content is basically incompatible with current projectors. All you can do is raise the black level while trying to get out higher peak whites and make the gamma curve a different shape to fake HDR. When they come up with a way to keep the same blacks and get higher peak whites they might have something. HDR is meant for flat panels (OLED and FALD LCD) which can boost peak whites without washing out the black levels across the entire frame due to internal reflections in a projector's optics.
You may have a point but you haven't read some of the new technology reviews. While native 4K projectors remain pricey they do offer pristine 4K source material with greater resolution, wide color and HDR from mostly from UHD Blu-ray players. I think the Benq is going to be a game changer in the pricing front for this. Hoping for others (like Sony/JVC, Optoma, and Epson) to follow suit.
tanman is offline  
post #1754 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:21 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
!!Whatever you say!!!

Dolby Cinema = cheap earbuds because it's not an OLED. Is that your argument? I gotta go somewhere to laugh in private so people don't think I'm nuts; I'll be back in a bit.
I didn't say it's a low grade standard because it's not an OLED. But, any commercial cinema is a flawed presentation. Including Dolby Cinemas. It's partially required by law. You know the mandatory exit signs and stair lighting that destroy the black level in the theater. And, it's partially dictated by limitations of the optics of projectors.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1755 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:21 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Don't worry hopefully Samsung improve their poor contrast performance on their next generation.

It seems like you are trying to say that the contrast on the samsung is fine because comercial cinemas also have poor contrast.
What? No, I am saying that director's intent surely includes viewing a large image i.e. the kind of big screen you see in a theater. Quite a bit larger than what you get when sitting at a typical distance from a 65" TV.

You have to be a flat-earth kind of person to believe otherwise.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1756 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:22 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I didn't say it's a low grade standard because it's not an OLED. But, any commercial cinema is a flawed presentation. Including Dolby Cinemas. It's partially required by law. You know the mandatory exit signs and stair lighting that destroy the black level in the theater. And, it's partially dictated by limitations of the optics of projectors.
Yeah well, so far best I can tell, nothing is perfect.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1757 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:23 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yeah well, so far best I can tell, nothing is perfect.
Right, so lets settle for crap. You're using one of those Westinghouse TVs from the shootout right? I mean since we can't have perfect, why even try.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1758 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:24 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Right, so lets settle for crap. You're using one of those Westinghouse TVs from the shootout right?
Please take note of how much of a premium TV makers can charge for a few extra inches of screen size. I wonder why that is!
greyflag likes this.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1759 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3418 Post(s)
Liked: 2503
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Please take note of how much of a premium TV makers can charge for a few extra inches of screen size. I wonder why that is!
I don't wonder. I know. Supply and demand.
Stereodude is online now  
post #1760 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:27 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I don't wonder. I know. Supply and demand.
Well there you have it, there's lots of demand for bigger screens. Enough to massively inflate prices when you take the leap from 65 inches to something over 70 inches because there's demand, yes? Now, I wonder why that is, that people would be willing to spend so much for a few extra inches, the only benefit of doing so being a slightly larger screen (versus what projection gets you).

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1761 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:30 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Also, when we're talking about director's intent, why not discuss the fact that directors intend that the voices of the actors come from the screen, and not below or above it. Is that a point in the A1E's favor? Well, it could be, but not until we can use it as a center channel. O,r for arthouse movies where there is no surround mix to worry about.

But it sure is a point in favor of projection, if we want to get into particulars on what all constitutes director's intent when it comes to watching movies.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1762 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 3022
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Also, when we're talking about director's intent, why not discuss the fact that directors intend that the voices of the actors come from the screen, and not below or above it. Is that a point in the A1E's favor? Well, it could be, but not until we can use it as a center channel. O,r for arthouse movies where there is no surround mix to worry about.

But it sure is a point in favor of projection, if we want to get into particulars on what all constitutes director's intent when it comes to watching movies.
The A1E's 'speaker-in-panel' cannot be configured as a center speaker?

Let's hope Sony addresses that in 2018 (or if not them, LG).
fafrd is offline  
post #1763 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:36 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ken Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 31,916
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6595 Post(s)
Liked: 7301
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Lol, well then, as I've been rambling on about, it may be projected HDR is for you! It doesn't have the crazy-bright peak highlights, but does carry the expanded color gamut that is a 100% match for the DCI/P3 color space used in commercial cinema. And the 10-bit gradients in the shadow areas create very nice clean imagery. And sit at a comfortable distance and enjoy 4K!

On a separate note, interior scenes with exterior windows are actually exhibiting tremendous contrast ratio when you see it with their own eyes. We're still not at the point where a camera can easily capture it. I know because I shot interiors for a living for 2 decades and dabbled in HDR tone mapping for just as long. Reality is still beating reproduction, by a lot, even if it's just you standing around in your living room with the windows open.
Projection certainly has its benefits (size, size and did I say, size?), but every one I've seen simply can't match the PQ of direct view and certainly not OLED emissive displays. Each to his own.
King Richard likes this.
Ken Ross is offline  
post #1764 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:38 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The A1E's 'speaker-in-panel' cannot be configured as a center speaker?

Let's hope Sony addresses that in 2018 (or if not them, LG).
I did make the suggestion to Sony at CES, but afaik it does not have a dedicated center channel mode and I do think that would be a useful feature, based on the fact it sounds decent.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1765 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
tanman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 694
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
The A1E's 'speaker-in-panel' cannot be configured as a center speaker?

Let's hope Sony addresses that in 2018 (or if not them, LG).
Sony A1E speaker idea is goo but just needs to be removed. All of them need to go towards the W7 style w/o the external speaker configuration.
tanman is offline  
post #1766 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:41 AM
Mark Henninger
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 12,306
Mentioned: 272 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6502 Post(s)
Liked: 11258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Projection certainly has its benefits (size, size and did I say, size?), but every one I've seen simply can't match the PQ of direct view and certainly not OLED emissive displays. Each to his own.
Everyone has their "Goldilocks Zone" for how they enjoy consuming entertainment. Priorities vary. I'm having the wrong conversation in the wrong thread; I'm signing off regarding the projection stuff.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
imagic is offline  
post #1767 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
tanman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 694
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 175 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
-snip I'm signing off regarding the projection stuff.
Please don't, there is nothing better than a 100"+ screen and your own sound system.
imagic and Al Leong like this.
tanman is offline  
post #1768 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:49 AM
Member
 
alfa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
But even when mastering a movie for commercial cinema on a monitor, they're not mastering to 1000 nits and HDR for a theater. That's just something that's done for the home version.

And yes, you can be certain a director checks the final result on a projector. Are you kidding?

And no, typical theaters are not the reference standard for consumer-oriented commercial cinema. But a Dolby Cinema auditorium is. IMAX is. I mean, seriously, are most TVs out there the reference standard? Or are just a tiny slice of flagship TVs from a few companies the reference standard?


You are so right about the PQ of IMAX and Dolby Cinema presentations - the brightness, colors, and black levels are stunning. We have both in a nearby AMC, and I always try to see theatrical presentations at those theaters if possible. But this has spoiled me somehow - recently, whenever I have watched a movie in a "regular" commercial cinema the grey blacks, lack of contrast, and washed out colors ruin the movie for me, particularly the terrible black levels. I have a 65 inch Panasonic ZT 60 as my main display at home, with a very nice Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 audio system, and even my wife (who previously didn't care if she was watching SD or HD!) thinks Blu-Rays on the ZT look better than movies look at the cinema.


So if I am thinking about upgrading my display, is there really a home projector that can get close to the PQ of a ZT60 for a reasonable price? The LG C7 65 oled can be had now for about $3000 (or less) I think, and since it is 4k you can sit closer, maybe 7 feet away. Plus, the whole room doesn't have to be blacked out with the oled like with projection. I have seen several very expensive projector demos at high end AV stores, I think $15,000 at least, and the black levels stunk on all of them. Is there really a projector with PQ even in the ballpark - unfortunately, I don't think I can afford a private Dolby Cinema!
alfa1 is offline  
post #1769 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:51 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
fafrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,374
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 3022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanman View Post
Sony A1E speaker idea is goo but just needs to be removed. All of them need to go towards the W7 style w/o the external speaker configuration.
I'm not sure what you are saying.

I'd never give up my Atmos sound system for the soundbar bundled with the W7.

If the sound quality is as goodcas it seemed at CES, I might give up my under-TV center speaker for a speaker-in-glass like Sony is offering (and LG has demo'd).

Something else to put on my wish list for the 2018 OLEDs...

Sony has a history of 'going it alone' while LG seems to have a much deeper and more productive working relationship with Dolby, so hopefully Dolby will work with LG to maximize the potential of this 'speaker-in-glass' concept... (center speaker when in AVR mode, stereo speaker when standalone).
fafrd is offline  
post #1770 of 3546 Old 07-18-2017, 11:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,309
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1635 Post(s)
Liked: 1325
Unless I'm missing some fundamental detail regarding the speaker on glass, are we really considering it would not only timbre match the L and R speakers in a setup but also be able to play at or near reference levels?

I get the positive of having center speaker sound coming from the actual TV screen but for audiophiles it seems a useless concept. Can't see too many enthusiasts saying "My L and R speakers are Power Sound Audio MT's and my Center speaker is a Sony"

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
BigCoolJesus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off