2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1981 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
The differences were so close between the LG and the Sony. I think it would be fair to say that the LG barely won. So, I think if Sony wants to come out on top next year, all they need to do is to provide an actual CMS so that the colors on the display will match with the reference monitor. Otherwise, they will always be the bridesmaid and never the bride. Of course that may not happen because that would force Sony to admit that sometimes "Sony Color" is not the best. They don't have a problem offering a CMS on the reference monitor, so they have no excuse.
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post #1982 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 08:36 PM
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But with tone mapping that clips highlights (as oppossed to the C7 which retaines much more detail-albeit at the expense of overall brightness) and a noticeably darker presentation of scenes that are overall very bright because of more aggressive light limiting . It's dark scene handling of highly compressed material is also less dimensional with reduced depth compared with the LG. It also has a silly backward slope.
The A1 does win out in some respects but is beaten in others by the C7 and so it comes down to what is important to the individual. Having compared both side by side I much preferred the overall presentation of the C7 as some bright scenes had more impact whilst some scenes with bright highlights showed considerably more detail. I handed over my cash for the C7 but would say it would have been nice to have the best bits of both TVs.
And what are those, pray tell?
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post #1983 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 09:29 PM
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You've got one super unusual Magnolia there. Two calibrated OLEDs right next to each other? I've never seen anything like that here in NY.

Not 2 but 3 in a row. C7, A1E, Q9, G6 or G7 That is how is the lower row. Right across from C7, facing it is Z9D also playing the same content. Across from G7/G6 is W7 OLED with its own sound bar but its placed at a 45 degree angle with respect to the row that has all the OLEDs. It does not play the same content though. Its one great place to be if you are AVS lover.

Top row over the OLED has A1E 55, Q7 and two other TVs I forgot.

The lower row of calibrated OLEDs are set up with Samsung K950, Sony HTST5000 and Definitive Technology Studio sound bars.

They have a high capacity fibre optic network feeding these TVs from OPPO Blu Ray player that can play UHD and HD discs. All other Best Buys in the neighborhood are jealous of these guys and their set up.

If you were to visit SF bay area I can give you the address
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post #1984 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sonoftumble View Post
The differences were so close between the LG and the Sony. I think it would be fair to say that the LG barely won. So, I think if Sony wants to come out on top next year, all they need to do is to provide an actual CMS so that the colors on the display will match with the reference monitor. Otherwise, they will always be the bridesmaid and never the bride. Of course that may not happen because that would force Sony to admit that sometimes "Sony Color" is not the best. They don't have a problem offering a CMS on the reference monitor, so they have no excuse.
Assuming LG doesn't incorporate any new/more advanced processing algorithms in 2018. I'm pretty sure they've been valuing these accolades a bit too much for 3 years running now to let a Japanese rebadger claim the title (and are taking notes). It remains to be seen if they ever decide to pull their head out on incorporating more motion options.
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post #1985 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 09:47 PM
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Is it possible for Sony to add CMS in A1E via firmware update ?

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post #1986 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 10:25 PM
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I'll be on it with Joel Silver, and hopefully we'll have one of the judges on the show too.
This is today.

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post #1987 of 3545 Old 07-19-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TVFanMTV View Post
Is it possible for Sony to add CMS in A1E via firmware update ?
They have half of the color tuner piece in place now - 2 point and 11 point. So it should be very possible.

Question is: will they do it? 50/50 or less chance IMHO. Why offer a CMS when you have Sony Color!
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post #1988 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 01:07 AM
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And what are those, pray tell?
Firstly I must put a disclaimer in here:
I have been told that the Sony has received an update which alters it's tone mapping and so it may be that it performs more like the LG in terms of it's detail retention in bright parts of a scene. Despite doing a side to side comparison of the two sets just last week I did not see this. However I don't know if the Sony I saw had received that update.
Before I did my own comparison I had watched Vincent Teoh's excellent comparison videeo ;
I did see slightly better motion handling on the Sony and I also saw more posterisation and slightly more noise in dark scenes on the LG.
I couldn't say that I could see any better upscaling on the Sony.
Having owned Sony TVs for many years I do consider that they have excellent video processors.
Of course I was up very close to the TVs and some of what I noticed would not be visible from normal viewing distances. I sit 6 feet away from my Lg 65B7V.
As I said, it would be nice to have the best of both. But that is just being greedy. If the updated Sony performs as well with bright scenes as the LG (I must get to see one) I would still choose the LG, but only on price considerations. I paid £3,300 for my LG (and the store paid me £350 for my almost 3 year old Sony KDL 55W8, leaving me £2,950 to pay) A Sony would have cost me £4,700 and I couldn't get a trade in of my old Sony so I would have had the hassle of selling it privately. I don't think that, for me, the advantages of the Sony are worth the extra cost.
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post #1989 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
The 2 and 20 point and I believe, but I didn't check, the CMS was done on the LG. The 2 and 10 pt was done on the A1. There are no CMS controls on the A1. Dolby Vision was calibrated by Tyler using the new Calman 2017 DV workflows on the LG.

As far as the Samsung and the Vizio, again 2 and 10 or 20 pt gray scale and I believe the 2 and 10 point on the Westinghouse.

I hope this helps.
CMS wasn't adjusted on anything except the LG?

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post #1990 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TVFanMTV View Post
Not 2 but 3 in a row. C7, A1E, Q9, G6 or G7 That is how is the lower row. Right across from C7, facing it is Z9D also playing the same content. Across from G7/G6 is W7 OLED with its own sound bar but its placed at a 45 degree angle with respect to the row that has all the OLEDs. It does not play the same content though. Its one great place to be if you are AVS lover.

Top row over the OLED has A1E 55, Q7 and two other TVs I forgot.

The lower row of calibrated OLEDs are set up with Samsung K950, Sony HTST5000 and Definitive Technology Studio sound bars.

They have a high capacity fibre optic network feeding these TVs from OPPO Blu Ray player that can play UHD and HD discs. All other Best Buys in the neighborhood are jealous of these guys and their set up.

If you were to visit SF bay area I can give you the address
Not to be a pessimist, but if these displays reside in Best Buy, then it's safe to say they were 'Best Buy calibrated'. Most of us on AVS know what that means.

There were a couple of interesting points that David K made in his review and comparison of the Sony vs the LG that you linked. He sounds just like me in downplaying the Sony 'advantages' I often see claimed here, but does tout the one Sony advantage I've always given credit to. Is this yet another conspiracy?:

* "Sony claims better video processing in its demos, but in my tests any advantage is minor, and LG actually handled sone processing tests better than Sony."

* "Video processing: With my motion tests the A1E didn't fare quite as well as the LG OLED sets. It had no issues delivering proper 1080p/24 material in its TruCinema MotionFlow setting, which is the (proper) default in the Cinema Pro picture mode, but can't deliver the TV's full motion resolution without introducing some smoothness, or soap opera effect. The Samsung and LG sets in my comparison can."

"I tried tinkering with the Custom MotionFlow setting but its adjustments were quite coarse, and as soon as a setting registered the Sony's full motion resolution, at a Smoothness of 2 or higher, it looked too smooth and lost proper 1080p/24 cadence. Sticklers for blurring will note that the Samsung beat the Sony (and the LGs) with a score of 1,200 lines of motion resolution."

* The Sony did show one minor advantage over the LG and the other sets in its reduction of the minor false contouring seen on some material. The skies in "The Martian" 4K Blu-ray, for example, occasionally showed exceedingly faint bands of color (at 46:37 for example) on the other sets, while the Sony with its Smooth gradation setting at Low or higher did not. I had to hunt for awhile to find an example, however, because the effect was so subtle.

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post #1991 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 05:54 AM
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12-13 year old tv VS almost a 1 year old tv. Here are some pictures of the Samsung 61" DLP HLS6187W with Sony Z9D pictures could not get the camera to take a good pic of the pure white screen and 20% for the DLP it was to bright and shows a very strange gray, but put them in anyway. I do agree it is a bit darker in some scenes and a bit blue for some whites. Again a photo of a tv screen is not a great representation of the quality or brightness of the TVs. Total pitch black rooms. Z9D oppo 203 1080P, DLP Xbox One 1080p. Thanks.

Next time try to be more consistent in how you order the pictures. End result, if you like the images, OLED ain't for you. Looks like you prefer heavily oversaturated colors and brightness. No biggie, everyone has their opinion, but it ain't accurate. Half the images show oversaturation, the others obvious skin tone issues, then major differences in brightness. What was the point of this again? To show the two TV's are similar? Seriously?
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post #1992 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Not to be a pessimist, but if these displays reside in Best Buy, then it's safe to say they were 'Best Buy calibrated'. Most of us on AVS know what that means.

There were a couple of interesting points that David K made in his review and comparison of the Sony vs the LG that you linked. He sounds just like me in downplaying the Sony 'advantages' I often see claimed here, but does tout the one Sony advantage I've always given credit to. Is this yet another conspiracy?:

* "Sony claims better video processing in its demos, but in my tests any advantage is minor, and LG actually handled sone processing tests better than Sony."

* "Video processing: With my motion tests the A1E didn't fare quite as well as the LG OLED sets. It had no issues delivering proper 1080p/24 material in its TruCinema MotionFlow setting, which is the (proper) default in the Cinema Pro picture mode, but can't deliver the TV's full motion resolution without introducing some smoothness, or soap opera effect. The Samsung and LG sets in my comparison can."

"I tried tinkering with the Custom MotionFlow setting but its adjustments were quite coarse, and as soon as a setting registered the Sony's full motion resolution, at a Smoothness of 2 or higher, it looked too smooth and lost proper 1080p/24 cadence. Sticklers for blurring will note that the Samsung beat the Sony (and the LGs) with a score of 1,200 lines of motion resolution."

* The Sony did show one minor advantage over the LG and the other sets in its reduction of the minor false contouring seen on some material. The skies in "The Martian" 4K Blu-ray, for example, occasionally showed exceedingly faint bands of color (at 46:37 for example) on the other sets, while the Sony with its Smooth gradation setting at Low or higher did not. I had to hunt for awhile to find an example, however, because the effect was so subtle.
On Home Theater Geeks tonight I am going to say "Joel, a prolific AVS Forum member named Ken Ross says the ISF certified calibrations Best Buy does are perhaps not as thorough, and that "most of AVS" knows this. How would you compare the shootout calibrations to the ISF calibration Best Buy offers."

Should be fun, given that Joel founded ISF and ISF trains/certifies Best Buy calibrations, and is also the guy who ran the shootout. (I know you know that, this is for the sake of casual readers)
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post #1993 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 06:40 AM
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Mark, now that I see your edited post, I understand what you were referring to with 'that guy'. The problem with BB calibrations is partially the result of the very short time they're allotted to complete them. Compare the time they spend vs the time an independent ISF calibrator spends. Day & night. In fact sometimes these guys start during the day and end up still there at night!

I also think the level of training they receive and the experience they have is not quite the same. With that said, I don't think I said they're 'no good', so don't misquote me.
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post #1994 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Mark, now that I see your edited post, I understand what you were referring to with 'that guy'. The problem with BB calibrations is partially the result of the very short time they're allotted to complete them. Compare the time they spend vs the time an independent ISF calibrator spends. Day & night. In fact sometimes these guys start during the day and end up still there at night!

I also think the level of training they receive and the experience they have is not quite the same. With that said, I don't think I said they're 'no good', so don't misquote me.
True. I'll say "perhaps not as thorough," and I imagine Joel's answer will be about the same as yours. But maybe it won't. Let's see!!!

On a related note, if time constraints are the primary issue when it comes to the Best Buy ISF calibration, nothing says that the in-store displays in the comment I referred to didn't receive more TLC than Joe Schmoe customer getting a Best Buy calibration on a service call where there's a hard cut off due to scheduling. and judging the skills of a calibrator just because they happen to work for Best Buy doesn't seem fair to me. I would judge the skill of the calibrator on a person by person basis, rather than being prejudicial over the fact that somebody's wearing a shirt with the Geek Squad logo on it.
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Okay, serious question, is anybody familiar with any threads or articles that directly compare two otherwise identical TVs, one of which was calibrated by a Best Buy technician, and the other that was calibrated by a reputable independent calibrator. @D-Nice , have you seen such a thing?

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post #1996 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 07:20 AM
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True. I'll say "perhaps not as thorough," and I imagine Joel's answer will be about the same as yours. But maybe it won't. Let's see!!!

On a related note, if time constraints are the primary issue when it comes to the Best Buy ISF calibration, nothing says that the in-store displays in the comment I referred to didn't receive more TLC than Joe Schmoe customer getting a Best Buy calibration on a service call where there's a hard cut off due to scheduling. and judging the skills of a calibrator just because they happen to work for Best Buy doesn't seem fair to me. I would judge the skill of the calibrator on a person by person basis, rather than being prejudicial over the fact that somebody's wearing a shirt with the Geek Squad logo on it.

Agree with this, but want to point out that as they are behind the BB wall it's impossible to judge on person to person basis. You are paying for a 'BB' calibration so don't know who you will be getting.
If come here to AVS, or google search for ISF certified calibrators, you will get a specific name you can research and see if people are happy with what that person has done and can even ask for specific references.
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post #1997 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 07:21 AM
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Okay, serious question, is anybody familiar with any threads or articles that directly compare two otherwise identical TVs, one of which was calibrated by a Best Buy technician, and the other that was calibrated by a reputable independent calibrator. @D-Nice , have you seen such a thing?
OK, I'll play straight man. How would we see such a thing? We do know we get rave review after rave review from owners using the ISF calibrator we know here. We also know such is not the case with owners who report their experience with BB calibrations.

Coincidence? Seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Hey, anyone can use who they want. No skin off my back.
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Okay, serious question, is anybody familiar with any threads or articles that directly compare two otherwise identical TVs, one of which was calibrated by a Best Buy technician, and the other that was calibrated by a reputable independent calibrator. @D-Nice , have you seen such a thing?
I think that you can forget about that. I have been reading some 2013 comments, so that is a few years ago, but those are Gregg Loewen and Michael Chen comments. Gregg Loewen claims that he often has been hired after someone has their TV calibrated by bestbuy.

A few BB related statements by them:
- Hit and run calibration (max 80 minutes spend on calibration)
- Train the trainer model (often means 3 days of class ISF)
- Hard to know who comes to your home to do actual calibration
- 1 in 10 chance of getting a BB calibrator that is actually any good (according to some of the best BB calibrators).
- ''My color measurement tool at 24K costs more than the car they are driving. ''
- ''The signal generator (at 6K) that I use costs more than all of their gear.''
- Devices used to calibrate might just be plain wrong on 30% 40% of all the displays they are used on.
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...ration.320804/
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Agree with this, but want to point out that as they are behind the BB wall it's impossible to judge on person to person basis. You are paying for a 'BB' calibration so don't know who you will be getting.
If come here to AVS, or google search for ISF certified calibrators, you will get a specific name you can research and see if people are happy with what that person has done and can even ask for specific references.
Yes, I'm speaking rhetorically. Of course I know how all this works, and indeed I have done calibration work because people specifically wanted me to do it, and not some random guy. I agree, reputation matters in the calibration biz. It's also a fact that having more time to tweak typically allows you to get a better result.

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OK, I'll play straight man. How would we see such a thing? We do know we get rave review after rave review from owners using the ISF calibrator we know here. We also know such is not the case with owners who report their experience with BB calibrations.

Coincidence? Seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Hey, anyone can use who they want. No skin off my back.
Hey, I just want to know what Joel Silver thinks of this topic, since Best Buy is providing ISF calibrations.

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post #2001 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 07:45 AM
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I think that you can forget about that. I have been reading some 2013 comments, so that is a few years ago, but those are Gregg Loewen and Michael Chen comments. Gregg Loewen claims that he often has been hired after someone has their TV calibrated by bestbuy.

A few BB related statements by them:
- Hit and run calibration (max 80 minutes spend on calibration)
- Train the trainer model (often means 3 days of class ISF)
- Hard to know who comes to your home to do actual calibration
- 1 in 10 chance of getting a BB calibrator that is actually any good (according to some of the best BB calibrators).
- ''My color measurement tool at 24K costs more than the car they are driving. ''
- ''The signal generator (at 6K) that I use costs more than all of their gear.''
- Devices used to calibrate might just be plain wrong on 30% 40% of all the displays they are used on.
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...ration.320804/
Okay, but Gregg was my THX calibration instructor when I got THX certified. And guess what part of the THX class involves? Criticizing the inadequacy of ISF training. That's what.

Literally, all those points were included in a PowerPoint presentation during the THX training session. Michael was there too.
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Originally Posted by MATT J View Post
12-13 year old tv VS almost a 1 year old tv. Here are some pictures of the Samsung 61" DLP HLS6187W with Sony Z9D pictures could not get the camera to take a good pic of the pure white screen and 20% for the DLP it was to bright and shows a very strange gray, but put them in anyway. I do agree it is a bit darker in some scenes and a bit blue for some whites. Again a photo of a tv screen is not a great representation of the quality or brightness of the TVs. Total pitch black rooms. Z9D oppo 203 1080P, DLP Xbox One 1080p. Thanks. Z9D pics top DLP bottom
The Samsung definitely has its color temp set to > 65K. I would imagine that black and white images will look very blue as well. The areas where I can see better luminance from the Sony are in the highlights and the overall "ambient" mid-range light in the various scenes. Some of this is due to a better reference white on the Sony as its color temp is obviously closer to the 65K standard. My expectation is that peak luminance on the Samsung will be a least 1/2 of what the Sony can do.

If I was trying to set the luminance level on both TV's, I would expect that the Sony will easily exceed the max bright room 73fl output with a low backlight setting. ( I already know it will - just using an example ) If you were to turn the backlight on the Sony all the way up, you would need sunglasses. I expect that the Samsung will struggle to get to 73fl, and there is no lamp adjustment available as the bulb is one speed.

All it takes is a calibrator with a meter to "see the light".
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post #2003 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 07:55 AM
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^^^

you need a calibrator who has experience with your display; some ISF calibrators specialize in large projectors: they may not have the right equipment or experience to do an OLED: you have to ask the right questions before you hire one
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post #2004 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
^^^

you need a calibrator who has experience with your display; some ISF calibrators specialize in large projectors: they may not have the right equipment or experience to do an OLED: you have to ask the right questions before you hire one
Agree, familiarity with the technology as well as how the particular brand/model works is key. Crucial.

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post #2005 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 08:46 AM
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Yes, I'm speaking rhetorically. Of course I know how all this works, and indeed I have done calibration work because people specifically wanted me to do it, and not some random guy. I agree, reputation matters in the calibration biz. It's also a fact that having more time to tweak typically allows you to get a better result.
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Hey, I just want to know what Joel Silver thinks of this topic, since Best Buy is providing ISF calibrations.
I don't think that Joel will want to be put in that somewhat awkward position. BB has to be one of his best clients.

Taking the class and passing the test to get certified is one thing. BB has an army of calibrators. Some of them probably stink, while others do a good average job. I'm sure that there are also some that can handle advanced HDR stuff. With that said, I'm also certain that BB's business model frowns on someone spending all day tinkering to get that extra human imperceivable 1% delta error reduction.
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post #2006 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 08:53 AM
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I don't think that Joel will want to be put in that somewhat awkward position. BB has to be one of his best clients.

Taking the class and passing the test to get certified is one thing.* BB has an army of calibrators. Some of them probably stink, while others do a good average job. I'm sure that there are also some that can handle advanced HDR stuff. With that said, I'm also certain that BB's business model frowns on someone spending all day tinkering to get that extra human imperceivable 1% delta error reduction.
Why would you say it's awkward? Either he vouches for what Best Buy does, or he doesn't. I suppose that I don't really have to ask because I already know the answer, he's got to vouch for Best Buy. And, implicitly, therefore, vouch for the calibrations of the TVs that a member mentioned earlier in the thread, that led to this diversion.

Well, I suppose this is all a bit too much elaboration, I was just speaking to that one comment, which referred to a specific Best Buy in San Francisco, where, for whatever reason, apparently somebody in the store had the wherewithal to perform potentially accurate calibrations on TVs that are hanging on the wall.

Maybe, just maybe, this is a sign of a knowledgeable calibrator, that they would bother to calibrate TVs in the store? I don't really know, and don't really need to discuss it any further unless people want to, because it all gets dithered away when you get to Internet style of debate. It takes too many words and nothing goes anywhere.

*Trivia... Before you get THX certified, you have to not only pass a test, you have to show you have the gear needed to do the job right, and you have to perform 10 field calibrations and send the reports back to make sure the result meets standards.

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Last edited by imagic; 07-20-2017 at 09:32 AM.
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post #2007 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes, I'm speaking rhetorically. Of course I know how all this works, and indeed I have done calibration work because people specifically wanted me to do it, and not some random guy. I agree, reputation matters in the calibration biz. It's also a fact that having more time to tweak typically allows you to get a better result.
Mark you suggested a side-by-side comparison of BB ISF calibrator vs. an independent ISF certified OLED calibrator (many calibrators on this forum). How about the differences that could be measured between two independent ISF Calibrators say Gregg and yourself or @jrref and @D-Nice ?
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post #2008 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tanman View Post
Mark you suggested a side-by-side comparison of BB ISF calibrator vs. an independent ISF certified OLED calibrator (many calibrators on this forum). How about the differences that could be measured between two independent ISF Calibrators say Gregg and yourself or @jrref and @D-Nice ?
If we all targeted the exact same settings? It's very likely that you'd see some very slight differences, no matter what, at least with HDR. At the consumer level, there's too much variation from unit to unit. But these days I'd say we could all nail a rec.709 calibration to what amounts to perfection. That's because today's HDR TVs exceed what's needed to achieve "textbook" HDR.

But even then, it all depends on how deep and functional the calibration controls of the TV are, as well as how consistent that particular model is from unit to unit.

Look at the cost of the Sony mastering monitor, that's what you have to pay if you want calibration to achieve absolute consistency and adhesion to supported standards, across multiple displays.


-----

Also, I do not think that Best Buys are in a position to calibrate HDR manually. It would have to be an automated, reliable process. I firmly believe in the future calibration will be mostly (if not fully) automated—aside from the tech showing up and putting the meter on the screen. At least at the Best Buy level.

I'm sure there will still be room for high-level calibrators, who are more like consultants/experts/teachers than a typical Geek Squad calibrator.
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post #2009 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 09:54 AM
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Just out of curiosity, what kind of equipment does a BB calibrator use?

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post #2010 of 3545 Old 07-20-2017, 10:03 AM
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Most definitely a meter would show the Z9D has more luminance. This was to show that the DLP can be as bright as the Z9D with decent picture quality, and get brighter than a 2017 OLED. I think if I dialed in the DLP to correct specs it would still be brighter than an 2017 OLED. With it being a 12-13 year old tv, I think it can still compete with newer TVs. The picture technology has changed, but not much in the 12-13 year span. IMO
But it's not as bright as the Z9D . Not sure how you came to that conclusion from the images you posted.
Then to take it further and say from your images it's brighter than a 2017 OLED?

A few pages back you showed images that the OLED you purchased suffered from what admittedly looked like bad banding. Seems you are now trying to take that 1 experience and paint the entire technology as bad....

Then considering that you DLP doesn't have HDR capability can assume an OLED would be calibrated in the 100-150 nit range. 2017 OLED can hit that at 100% full field with no ABL, can't it??? I think getting 'brightness' mixed up with OLED didn't have the oversaturation that the DLP had been set too......
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