2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by VidPro View Post
I said a while ago no TV should have a list of don't watch movies because of the TV's flaws. I never popped in a movie or threw on some streamed flick and cringed when I had my 500M.

And Al, if you just posted a link to all of your assets and purchases, you'd save time listing all the things you buy and can afford. LOL! Just breaking them on ya!
I've yet to see anything on my B6 that I couldn't watch due to its flaws. The worst thing I've ever watched was GOT. The dark scenes in previous seasons were well known for noise, regardless of the TV tech you used. However the B6 did add a bit more noise and posterization than was typical. Other, brighter scenes, looked amazing.

However this season looks very different as it may have been shot with different equipment in anticipation of 4K...which at the last minute didn't happen. Dark scenes in the first episode of the new season looked amazing.
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post #2252 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
To sum up the thread for those poor souls who may just be wandering in:

The LG won the shootout.
The Sony won Al's heart and praises.

Neither of those revelations should change anyone's mind if they are trying to decide between the LG or Sony. Either TV will deliver within +/- 0.5% of each other.

Just don't go LCD

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And just to add, if you are sensitive to motion, near black noise and gradients and watch a lot of cable or streaming, if you have the money and can get a good deal, "consider" the A1.
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post #2253 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
What's wrong with Arrival? I thought it looked amazing on my LCD.

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Much like the theatrical experience, 'Arrival' features an unsaturated color palette (save for the occasional pop of the hazmat suits and Montana landscapes) alongside muddy contrast and black levels that are barely hit deep gray, especially when considered next to the pure blacks of the letterboxing. There are also touches of banding here and there.
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post #2254 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
TVs that are prone to showing banding/posterization have a tough time with the misty gradients in Arrival. Since much of the movie occurs in a gray mist/fog, it's quite a distraction if a display does not handle it properly.
Thankfully mine can handle it just fine.

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post #2255 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It was the Z9D
God bless you.. I thought that's what you were saying and didn't really hold you to the statement.

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post #2256 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I've yet to see anything on my B6 that I couldn't watch due to its flaws. The worst thing I've ever watched was GOT. The dark scenes in previous seasons were well known for noise, regardless of the TV tech you used. However the B6 did add a bit more noise and posterization than was typical. Other, brighter scenes, looked amazing.

However this season looks very different as it may have been shot with different equipment in anticipation of 4K...which at the last minute didn't happen. Dark scenes in the first episode of the new season looked amazing.
Ken here's the thing with the B6. It is a fine set as you say. My neighbor got one and he loves it. The only problem was that there were a lot of AVS'ers who couldn't deal with the motion and other issues and returned the set for either a C, E, or G with the LG SOC. I can tell you from calibrating these sets, they were very different but as you say, the PQ was very close to the rest of the line. Also at the store, at least during my time, the quality of the B panels were not as good as the others and we had to reject some. I'm glad you got a good panel but I hope this explains why some talk about the B6. Fortunately, this year the whole LG line uses the same LG SOC and everything is the same except for the sound system.
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post #2257 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I wonder why Al doesn't ditch those nasty, hideous LGs, and replace them all with Sonys. Why not have 'magic dust' sprinkled everywhere in your home? Certainly there's nothing the LG can do better than the Sony. Why keep that crap?
And give up the real Dolby Vision TV that processor is designed from the start to deliver 4K UHD DV discs...

I'm confident in my product tastes.. but not crazy..
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post #2258 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Don't play dumb. Long before the shootout I mentioned that there was false contouring in space on the standard intro and close of every episode of PE II, (I even gave the timestamp) and I asked you to check it on your B6 and tell us what your brightness settings were. You responded to me, so I know you read my post, and you said you were not going to bother.

I asked everyone to tell us what brightness settings they were using when viewing Planet Earth II, and were they getting pitch black space in the intro, or gray space?
And you expect people to respond to your posts with this kind of nastiness?

To be perfectly honest, I don't usually read and/or respond to your posts/essays. I always know they will be centered in some kind of anti-OLED diatribe. So why read it when these are OLED threads, supposedly populated by posters who actually enjoy OLED?

Ba bye.
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post #2259 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HDANDMORE View Post
Much like the theatrical experience, 'Arrival' features an unsaturated color palette (save for the occasional pop of the hazmat suits and Montana landscapes) alongside muddy contrast and black levels that are barely hit deep gray, especially when considered next to the pure blacks of the letterboxing. There are also touches of banding here and there.
Yes it's a dark movie. The average nits level is only 10 nits and barely ever goes above 100 nits. I thought it was a great looking movie although the story wasn't as good as Contact.

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post #2260 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
You can get one of the LG's for about the same price as the better plasma were going for
HDR content on a 4K TVis a game changer over plasma..trust me

Warren
4K is the last thing i want. I am not setup to view 4k without replacing many BD players and no TV shows i have are done in 4k or out on 4k disc. If LG still made a cheaper 1080p set for under 1600 smackers then maybe.

Just cost too much to change all my stuff over to 4k 4 BD players, AVR and then buy the old movies again in 4k. I keep wanting to buy, but why replace a perfect plasma when i won't be watching 4k stuff? There is a guy selling a month old 65" Sony OLED local for around 3.5k that temps me. Maybe if he came down to $3k i just may switch over OLED.
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post #2261 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:33 AM
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post #2262 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
The shootout appears to be a total farce. Only 5 judges? What a joke. No transparency whatsoever. What were the settings on the displays? How do we know exactly what content was displayed? It appears the shootout has gotten worse than previous years, not better. I am glad the LG won. I hope this motivates Sony to add a CMS in their future displays. I only wish them losing would make Sony OLED prices come down even faster (not likely).

I only wish they had a special category for worst remote. Sony would have at least taken first prize for that one. Whoever runs the remote control department must be a nephew of the CEO, because they should have been fired years ago. The Sony remote is utter garbage. What a bunch of clowns. They make the buttons very flat, so it is extremely difficult to feel your way around the remote. Then they make them black with no backlighting, so you have no hope of seeing the buttons in the dark. They should have made the buttons white or translucent, so they could at least be seen somewhat in the dark.

For the ridiculously expensive price they are asking, Sony should at least make their remote backlit, and have it light up when you pick it up, like the Oppo, or my Xfinity remote which lights up nicely when I pick it up. Sony cheaped out on the remote, won't provide a CMS, and cheaped out on chips needed to run Android, so their OLED is overpriced and they deserved to lose, even though they have better processing and motion.

LG's wand remote is not perfect, but anything but a Sony remote. Scott Wilkinson lost a lot of credibility with me when he actually praised the Sony remote. How could he actually have anything good to say about that useless pile of crap? I always end up having to press the button more than once to turn the TV on. I am too casual the way I aim it the first go around. It must have a very narrow cone and it needs to be directly pointed at the center of the TV. And to make matters worse, my Sony remotes eat batteries very rapidly. Pure garbage.

Sony needs to FIRE whoever is in charge of designing their lame remotes.
I agree the sony remote is not so great but this comment
>>
The shootout appears to be a total farce. Only 5 judges? What a joke. No transparency whatsoever. What were the settings on the displays? How do we know exactly what content was displayed? It appears the shootout has gotten worse than previous years, not better. I am glad the LG won. I hope this motivates Sony to add a CMS in their future displays. I only wish them losing would make Sony OLED prices come down even faster (not likely).
<<

It's very easy to criticize. I was there for the 3 days as an observer and helped out when asked, and I can tell you this event is no small task and we are very lucky to have it. It's not perfect but it will get better as we move forward. What a lot of folks loose site of is that Retail sets have evolved and the Shootout is trying to evolve as well. Joel tells a story that years ago the sets were so different in many respects that it was straight forward to see which was the best. Now, not so easy. I agree they needed more judges and a more diverse group but these guys did an incredible job and it's ok to constructively comment but don't take anything away from this effort. Robert, Joel, Kevin and the rest are the one of the best in the industry and their best efforts should be applauded.

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post #2263 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:35 AM
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post #2264 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
You forgot one: WARNING WARNING LG owners, stay away from The Arrival!!

I wonder why Al doesn't ditch those nasty, hideous LGs, and replace them all with Sonys. Why not have 'magic dust' sprinkled everywhere in your home? Certainly there's nothing the LG can do better than the Sony. Why keep that crap?

I also wish Al would enlighten all those pesky, naive professional reviewers (and shootout judges) who just don't see things the way he does. He could release the video world from the shackles of deceit and misconception.

Free the video world now! Enter the Age of Enlightenment!
Al is a Sony lover. I was a Sony lover in the 90's till around 2004 when CRT was done. I would spend 2 to 4k every year for the latest XBR CRT. I remember paying over 3k for a 32" XBR 100. Sure wish they still made them and the 38" Aconda Loewe that went up in smoke on me. Best pic of any set i owned.

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post #2265 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:36 AM
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post #2266 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I have added the HDR calibration charts for all the 2017 shootout TVs to my post announcing the winner:

2017 Annual TV Shootout Results – Updated with HDR Calibration Charts
From what I can see, not one of these TV's were calibrated properly in HDR10.
The Q9 had the best grayscale done that's for certain.

Edit; there is some SDR mixed in with those charts as well.

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post #2267 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:38 AM
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post #2268 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Mark, which set are we looking at?
Each post is labeled with the model#, and also each image has the TV model in it (top right)

That's the LG E7.
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post #2269 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Ken here's the thing with the B6. It is a fine set as you say. My neighbor got one and he loves it. The only problem was that there were a lot of AVS'ers who couldn't deal with the motion and other issues and returned the set for either a C, E, or G with the LG SOC. I can tell you from calibrating these sets, they were very different but as you say, the PQ was very close to the rest of the line. Also at the store, at least during my time, the B panels were the worst and we had to reject some while the rest were fine. I'm glad you got a good panel but I hope this explains why some talk about the B6. Fortunately, this year the whole LG line uses the same LG SOC and everything is the same except for the sound system.
John, there are also lots of discerning AVS'ers that love their B6. I will say that at the beginning, prior to a firmware update that solved the motion issue that was unique to the B6, the B6 did show very occasional motion issues with certain HDR BluRays.

That has been 100% solved and motion and PQ is no different than any of the other 2016 series. The SOC impact was greatly exaggerated by a few, despite LG and reviewers saying there was no difference PQ. As was explained a multitude of times, the in-house SOC of the B was not hampered by 3D or enhanced audio duties of the other models.

I'd guarantee you that if I masked off the bezels, you couldn't tell the difference.
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Al is a Sony lover. I was a Sony lover in the 90's till around 2004 when CRT was done. I would spend 2 to 4k every year for the latest XBR CRT. I remember paying over 3k for a 32" XBR 100. Sure wish they still made them and the 38" Aconda Loewe that went up in smoke on me. Best pic of any set i owned.
Correction: Sony A1E and 4K projector lover.. I have no interests in Sony LEDs to date..
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post #2271 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:40 AM
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post #2272 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
And give up the real Dolby Vision TV that processor is designed from the start to deliver 4K UHD DV discs...

I'm confident in my product tastes.. but not crazy..
Say what??? Al, you've already said the Sony's magic dust makes HDR10 look just as good as DV. Get rid of that LG while it still has some value. Repent! Repent!
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post #2273 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:49 AM
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As was noted at the event, the Westinghouse was not calibratable, so what you see is what you get.
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post #2274 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:49 AM
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^^^
I can't believe how far the Vizio has come!
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post #2275 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
Correction: Sony A1E and 4K projector lover.. I have no interests in Sony LEDs to date..
Anyone with a head would not like LED's. I would die first before buying one.
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post #2276 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Say what??? Al, you've already said the Sony's magic dust makes HDR10 look just as good as DV. Get rid of that LG while it still has some value. Repent! Repent!
He can sell it to me for 1500 smackers.

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post #2277 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Vizio P65 - 2017 TV Shootout HDR calibration charts
I'm disappointed.
This is what a properly done HDR10 on a Vizio P should look like (First 4 photos).

Last 3 photos is SDR.


@imagic How much time was given to calibrate each set?
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #2278 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I disagree, streaming it's a huge part of the industry. More people stream than any other source. It should absolutely be part of it.


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To include streaming in a TV shootout means use the internal apps.... which isn't an apples to apples comparison because the app versions on each Tv are not the same. Using an external streamer doesn't make sense because you then are comparing the performance of the streamer, NOT the TV.

On the subject of streamers, how many have noticed that the nvidia Shield TV has a colorspace issue? It maps the cooorspace with the output selection so if you output 4K, the colorspace for all apps will be Rec. 2020... an absolute no no.
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post #2279 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
To include streaming in a TV shootout means use the internal apps.... which isn't an apples to apples comparison because the app versions on each Tv are not the same. Using an external streamer doesn't make sense because you then are comparing the performance of the streamer, NOT the TV.

On the subject of streamers, how many have noticed that the nvidia Shield TV has a colorspace issue? It maps the cooorspace with the output selection so if you output 4K, the colorspace for all apps will be Rec. 2020... an absolute no no.
Yeah but in the end you gotta use some source, and streaming is not going away, so whoever runs the shootout next year should just bite the effing bullet and use a Roku, IMO. You are still testing each TV's ability to deal with less than ideal content.

Maybe the demos could include 2 or 3 players and rotate between them, but at the end of the day until TV makers treat built-in smart apps exactly like an HDMI input in terms of video processing, I vote for using external streamers. Plus you can't sync the internal TV apps anyhow, so for a shootout that may never be an option.

Mark Henninger (aka Imagic)

Last edited by imagic; 07-22-2017 at 07:09 AM.
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post #2280 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
To include streaming in a TV shootout means use the internal apps.... which isn't an apples to apples comparison because the app versions on each Tv are not the same. Using an external streamer doesn't make sense because you then are comparing the performance of the streamer, NOT the TV.

On the subject of streamers, how many have noticed that the nvidia Shield TV has a colorspace issue? It maps the cooorspace with the output selection so if you output 4K, the colorspace for all apps will be Rec. 2020... an absolute no no.
That is why you choose one streamer to use for all of them. I have not seen a colorspace issue with the nvidia shield. I have mine set to 4k 59hz and 4:2:2 rec2020. The color space only changes when HDR is sent from it with the apps I have used.

Can you give me an example that I can test to confirm what you are seeing? I use Netflix, Amazon mainly from it but I have watched Youtube, Vudu and HDHomerun with it also.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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