2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 77 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2281 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Resolution and screen size will always play a role in what you can see with a lower quality source.

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Are we having the same conversation??? We are discussing banding in high quality sources like PE2. We are NOT talking about low quality compressed sources. PE2's banding on the LG is exaggerated, I saw it at the shootout. Al saw it at the shootout. jrref saw it at the shootout. I can see it here in my evaluation setup. 3 people have seen it.... but I don't know what I'm talking about and you are pointing to the screen size as the culprit. Dude, get the f* out of here with that.
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post #2282 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I'm disappointed.
This is what a properly done HDR10 on a Vizio P should look like (First 4 photos).

Last 3 photos is SDR.


@imagic How much time was given to calibrate each set?
I had nothing to do with the calibrations. Tyler aka @WiFi-Spy did some of the calibration, so hopefully he can offer insight.
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post #2283 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
To include streaming in a TV shootout means use the internal apps.... which isn't an apples to apples comparison because the app versions on each Tv are not the same. Using an external streamer doesn't make sense because you then are comparing the performance of the streamer, NOT the TV.

On the subject of streamers, how many have noticed that the nvidia Shield TV has a colorspace issue? It maps the cooorspace with the output selection so if you output 4K, the colorspace for all apps will be Rec. 2020... an absolute no no.
D, I agree, and I may be wrong but I thought the intent was to show what you would get if a "typical" person bought one of these sets. Meaning, the built in apps as well which is why I didn't understand the comment about external streaming devices.

For example, if a particular set had the best PQ but the worst built in apps, and that was important to me, then I would like to know I would need to get an external device.
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post #2284 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
That is why you choose one streamer to use for all of them. I have not seen a colorspace issue with the nvidia shield. I have mine set to 4k 59hz and 4:2:2 rec2020. The color space only changes when HDR is sent from it with the apps I have used.

Can you give me an example that I can test to confirm what you are seeing? I use Netflix, Amazon mainly from it but I have watched Youtube, Vudu and HDHomerun with it also.
Unless you have an additional display available or you know how a piece of content should look, exactly how would you be able to understand what I'm talking about. You don't have test equipment to validate either do you?

How to recreate at home....

Get 2 TVs. At least one much be HDR capable.
Get 2 Nvidia Shield TVs.
Set one TV with the Shield TV set to 1080p output (doesn't matter if it is 59.94 or 23.96)
Set the other TV with the Shield TV set to 4K 59.96 output.
Pick any app and/or video content and observe the color difference.

I've seen this behavior only on the Shield TV. Roku and FireTV output the proper colorspace with a 4K output.
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post #2285 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Anyone with a head would not like LED's. I would die first before buying one.
A CRT is your computermonitor i guess?
Honestly, i use a Plasma for movies, everything else i do not care, might as well be a Edge Lit..Also in a non-dimmed room a LCd will do fine..
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post #2286 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
D, I agree, and I may be wrong but I thought the intent was to show what you would get if a "typical" person bought one of these sets. Meaning, the built in apps as well which is why I didn't understand the comment about external streaming devices.

For example, if a particular set had the best PQ but the worst built in apps, and that was important to me, then I would like to know I would need to get an external device.
Correct. However Ken makes a valid objection to the internal apps beccusse they are not the same between TVs. For an apple to apples streaming comparison, we would need each TV to have the same app... or at least apps with identical features. That does not happen as of today, which is the problem.
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post #2287 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Correct. However Ken makes a valid objection to the internal apps beccusse they are not the same between TVs. For an apple to apples streaming comparison, we would need each TV to have the same app... or at least apps with identical features. That does not happen as of today, which is the problem.
Got it, so to compare streaming processing of the sets you would need the same streaming source and all the equipment, so this comparison is really a comparison of the native apps on the sets and their PQ from those on-board apps..
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post #2288 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Are we having the same conversation??? We are discussing banding in high quality sources like PE2. We are NOT talking about low quality compressed sources. PE2's banding on the LG is exaggerated, I saw it at the shootout. Al saw it at the shootout. jrref saw it at the shootout. I can see it here in my evaluation setup. 3 people have seen it.... but I don't know what I'm talking about and you are pointing to the screen size as the culprit. Dude, get the f* out of here with that.
Obviously I'm talking about both. I never said that screen size is the culprit but that it could easily play a role into it. You did say the BD version so I'm assuming the 1080p BR disc. If so what was upscaling? How about showing some examples instead of coping a ridiculous attitude. Not everyone can go visit you or buy 3 or 4 oled tvs to see what you are seeing...

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post #2289 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:28 AM
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The internal Netflix, VUDU, and Amazon app for example is the only way to feed the LG with streaming Dolby Vision. Using an external box like a Roku would take that away from the LG in comparison and the better HDR format for the TV itself.
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post #2290 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Unless you have an additional display available or you know how a piece of content should look, exactly how would you be able to understand what I'm talking about. You don't have test equipment to validate either do you?

How to recreate at home....

Get 2 TVs. At least one much be HDR capable.
Get 2 Nvidia Shield TVs.
Set one TV with the Shield TV set to 1080p output (doesn't matter if it is 59.94 or 23.96)
Set the other TV with the Shield TV set to 4K 59.96 output.
Pick any app and/or video content and observe the color difference.

I've seen this behavior only on the Shield TV. Roku and FireTV output the proper colorspace with a 4K output.
I've done Color space readings with my meter with both settings from my shield on both output settings with the same results. Just maybe what TV is connected to the shield is triggering the shield to output rec2020. Mine does not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (3.2.13.3).
My P75-C1 BETA Calibration Settings (3.3.18.1).
Vizio P75-C1 (fw-3.3.16.1), Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One, Wii
NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, Antennas Direct DB4e w/Dipole OTA antenna and 2x HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #2291 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
The internal Netflix, VUDU, and Amazon app for example is the only way to feed the LG with streaming Dolby Vision. Using an external box like a Roku would take that away from the LG in comparison and the better HDR format for the TV itself.
My guess is by this time next year that will not be an issue. Chromecast Ultra supports Dolby Vision, so it's just a matter of the individual apps supporting it at this point. And since Roku TVs like the TCL P-Series support Dolby Vision, widespread Roku support can't be far behind...
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post #2292 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Unless you have an additional display available or you know how a piece of content should look, exactly how would you be able to understand what I'm talking about. You don't have test equipment to validate either do you?

How to recreate at home....

Get 2 TVs. At least one much be HDR capable.
Get 2 Nvidia Shield TVs.
Set one TV with the Shield TV set to 1080p output (doesn't matter if it is 59.94 or 23.96)
Set the other TV with the Shield TV set to 4K 59.96 output.
Pick any app and/or video content and observe the color difference.

I've seen this behavior only on the Shield TV. Roku and FireTV output the proper colorspace with a 4K output.
You are right. I had s shield tv connected to an E6 and at 4K everything seemed wrong. Especially skin tones.
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post #2293 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Sony A1E - 2017 TV Shootout HDR calibration charts
Mark, were these charts produced after the calibrations conducted on the first day of the shootout or were there a 2nd round of calibrations from which these charts came?
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post #2294 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Al is a Sony lover. I was a Sony lover in the 90's till around 2004 when CRT was done. I would spend 2 to 4k every year for the latest XBR CRT. I remember paying over 3k for a 32" XBR 100. Sure wish they still made them and the 38" Aconda Loewe that went up in smoke on me. Best pic of any set i owned.
Without any question I've owned more Sonys than any other brand. I felt there was a time they truly dominated the field. I don't think that's the case anymore and hasn't been for several years, IMO.
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post #2295 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Mark, were these charts produced after the calibrations conducted on the first day of the shootout or were there a 2nd round of calibrations from which these charts came?
I'll have to ask Scott Wilkinson, or else it's likely Tyler knows... Scott sent them to me to post. Presumably they are the calibrations upon which the final vote was made, they are based on the PDFs used for the graphics we discussed on Home Theater Geeks.


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post #2296 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:19 AM
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Where's the Sony BVM X300 charts?!

Surely I'm not the only one that wants to see how the 'control' reference monitor charts. That's the key one isn't it. So that we can all see what the TV's are aiming for.
Cheers

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post #2297 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Unless you have an additional display available or you know how a piece of content should look, exactly how would you be able to understand what I'm talking about. You don't have test equipment to validate either do you?

How to recreate at home....

Get 2 TVs. At least one much be HDR capable.
Get 2 Nvidia Shield TVs.
Set one TV with the Shield TV set to 1080p output (doesn't matter if it is 59.94 or 23.96)
Set the other TV with the Shield TV set to 4K 59.96 output.
Pick any app and/or video content and observe the color difference.

I've seen this behavior only on the Shield TV. Roku and FireTV output the proper colorspace with a 4K output.
A color issue was easily observed with the Roku Premiere and how it interacted with certain Sonys & Vizios. On my 940c, UHD output showed a very obvious red push relative to the same Sony onboard apps. I eventually returned it, it was unwatchable.
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post #2298 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'll have to ask Scott Wilkinson, or else it's likely Tyler knows... Scott sent them to me to post. Presumably they are the calibrations upon which the final vote was made, they are based on the PDFs used for the graphics we discussed on Home Theater Geeks.

https://youtu.be/mHdqjtuE03Y
The pix reminds me of a gang of bank robbers.
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post #2299 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by johnvnross View Post
Surely I'm not the only one that wants to see how the 'control' reference monitor charts. That's the key one isn't it. So that we can all see what the TV's are aiming for.
Cheers

John
Here, again, hopefully @WiFi-Spy or @Scott Wilkinson can give an answer. I do not know.

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post #2300 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Wha, this is news to me. This wasn't offered in 2016, just the standard rinky-dink one-year warranty.
I just checked and you're absolutely correct! I thought Robert mentioned a 2 year warranty with the Signature series, but both the 2016s & 2017s have a one year warranty. I must have misunderstood.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess mine will fail on day 366.
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Got it, so to compare streaming processing of the sets you would need the same streaming source and all the equipment, so this comparison is really a comparison of the native apps on the sets and their PQ from those on-board apps..
Correct
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post #2302 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
TVs that are prone to showing banding/posterization have a tough time with the misty gradients in Arrival. Since much of the movie occurs in a gray mist/fog, it's quite a distraction if a display does not handle it properly.
Fortunately I'll never buy it since we didn't like it in the movies. I agree with another poster, Contact was far better IMO.
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post #2303 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Obviously I'm talking about both. I never said that screen size is the culprit but that it could easily play a role into it. You did say the BD version so I'm assuming the 1080p BR disc. If so what was upscaling? How about showing some examples instead of coping a ridiculous attitude. Not everyone can go visit you or buy 3 or 4 oled tvs to see what you are seeing...
And I'm specifically speaking of one.... high quality only sources, Ridiculous attitude? LMFAO... ok. Samples.... they are being examined by the correct party.... LG. I provided ways for you to find what I and others have already seen on your own AND allow you to try to mitigate it on your own. Can't do that with photos..... oh how silly the world has become.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Without any question I've owned more Sonys than any other brand. I felt there was a time they truly dominated the field. I don't think that's the case anymore and hasn't been for several years, IMO.
Not since 2005 and on. They never did good for LED back in the mid 2000's not sure if they ever made a plasma or not. Loewe was the best CRT with it's line doubled CRT's in the late 90's then the XBR's.

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Not since 2005 and on. They never did good for LED back in the mid 2000's not sure if they ever made a plasma or not. Loewe was the best CRT with it's line doubled CRT's in the late 90's then the XBR's.
But let's be fair, the Z9D is arguably the best LCD ever made.
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post #2306 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
A CRT is your computermonitor i guess?
Honestly, i use a Plasma for movies, everything else i do not care, might as well be a Edge Lit..Also in a non-dimmed room a LCd will do fine..
A computer is not a screen to look at. A monitor is, i have a 27" since i can't read print anymore without it being blown up..

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post #2307 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I've done Color space readings with my meter with both settings from my shield on both output settings with the same results. Just maybe what TV is connected to the shield is triggering the shield to output rec2020. Mine does not.
You have a v1 shield. I'm speaking of the v2. What do you mean what Tv is being connected???? Ive already posted what TVs I have here.

Make this real simple for you..., the v2 shield TV is changing lower colorspaces (i.e. Rec709) to 2020 when it detects that it is connected to a UHD display and auto sets the video output to 4K 59.96Hz. His behavior happens on C7s, A1Es, 900E and Z9D here. Manually changing the output, for example, to 1080p 59.96Hz corrects the colorspace issue with Rec709 content.
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post #2308 of 3544 Old 07-22-2017, 08:54 AM
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But let's be fair, the Z9D is arguably the best LCD ever made.
Not sure. I have not looked a LED in over 6 years. All i ever saw was motion blur. Last LED i went out of my way to look at was the Elite brand that cost a arm and leg back around 2011. I guess i should go look at a Z9D and see how i like it.

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after seeing the E7 at the shootout I've found my "LG Dust" settings, which I'll publish once I have run enough content through it (to be sure) I can give it the "Dust" certification...
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Sony Vision 2.1 A1E settings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
after seeing the E7 at the shootout I've found my "LG Dust" settings, which I'll publish once I have run enough content through it (to be sure) I can give it the "Dust" certification...
Al: Don't start kicking dust around the whole dugout will be after you!
Al Leong and King Richard like this.
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