2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 07:50 AM
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Can you explain how it is that Vizio puts Dolby Vision in its affordable M-Series, and now TCL puts Dolby Vision in its 55" P-Series that costs $600 and gives you 72-zone FALD, if adding it is prohibitively expensive to the point that Panasonic can't afford these things for its flagship TV?

I truly do not have insight into this, but I do find it odd that Dolby Vision is found on Vizio and TCL models that are priced to sell in large quantities, and not on a luxury TV that costs multiple times more.
Vizio cooks its own silicone, and integrates DV into their SoC. Maybe that saved them some $'s. The licensing is not that much. I think you still get what you pay for in this industry. The initial reviews on the TCL is that their FALD is VERY SLOW and should be turned off. Guess that's why it's only $600.
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post #242 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 08:08 AM
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Vizio cooks its own silicone, and integrates DV into their SoC. Maybe that saved them some $'s. The licensing is not that much. I think you still get what you pay for in this industry. The initial reviews on the TCL is that their FALD is VERY SLOW and should be turned off. Guess that's why it's only $600.
Nothing says you can't update a FALD algorithm through firmware. Vizio's P-Series is the poster-child for that. The TCL is brand-new. Runs Roku UI really snappy and obviously does Dolby Vision so it must have some processing horsepower.

I did not have issues with the TCL's FALD but it's native contrast does make shutting it off an option and the result is still very gratifying.
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post #243 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 09:06 AM
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No they do not. But, if they WANT to they can master flying a jet. That's all I am saying. John Travolta did it. Now, I am not about to claim that AVS Forum members are the John Travoltas of the AV industry, but... all I'm saying is that there are no hard limits on what dedicated enthusiasts can do.

Just sidstepping the topic for a second: Good anology using John Travolta. Hes right up there with the best pilot. Even impressed many pros when he had an electrical problem and basically glided a 707 without full capability safely back down. Gotta give credit where credit is due even considering that bomb of a picture: "Battlefield Earth". Since it was a movie based on the writings of his sciencetology founder, I guess its expected. Follow the leader.

Since every oled set is based on Lg's panels, are we really serious to expect a major difference? Panasonic and every other oled manuf, including Sony use Lg's panels. Any difference will be minor along the lines of Lg's own lineup. Same panel, different case's. The only real difference will be we applauding and amplifing minor differences to make one stand out. It wont be untill next generation oleds come on the market will there be a new same difference that will differenciate one oled from another. And supporting technology. My set has android your doesnt!

Just my humble opinion about getting fired up about an oled when its all the same inside. Now if someone made a non Lg oled panel I would be more open.
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post #244 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 09:08 AM
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But... AV enthusiasts often do not have untrained senses. Same goes for audio enthusiasts. Just look at how folks here discuss black levels and letterbox bars and OLED versus FALD and then compare that to what a "typical" consumer sees when they look at a TV. Often it's worlds apart. "Training" is basically the effect where once you see a flaw in a display, you can't un-see it.

If you pay attention to something, you are training your senses. I do not agree with any notion that only a pro can achieve these things. Just like an amateur can train for a marathon and post a good time that competes with pros, so can AV enthusiasts here on AVS Forum learn and train themselves to be better at judging and scrutinizing gear. I am virulently opposed to the idea that "only an expert" can be a good judge, or have the requisite training.

The pilot example is a good one. Many people who are pilots learn to fly as a hobby, not so that they can make it a career. They train the same way as the pros and nothing stops 'em from acquiring the same skills as a pro, if they are dedicated.
An AV enthusiast's 'trained' senses are better tuned to pick up visual and aural flaws than a casual viewer or listener yes but that does not mean all trained senses are the 'same'. It's because even if you're an av enthusuiast, your tolerance level or sensitivity to flaws could vary. some people's eyes may be more sensitive to motion juddering than static banding on screen or vice versa. And that is where subjectivity comes in as to what consitutes the best video or audio. I do consider myself an av enthusiast if going by the amount i have spent on visual and audio gear since the 80s, even though i dont go around bragging about having trained senses like industry insiders. I have always given weightage to the professional opinion but i have never let that opinion be the final judge when making a decision to buy stuff, the final judge is how i perceive or hear it. Same with oled, i'm still looking to make the jump, but what i saw in the demo with these sets, i think the panasonic looked a little better than the other two lg and sony(which aproximately looked equal , some scenes advantage to sony and vice versa). Now in the shootout, im sure the professional opinion could be different.
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post #245 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 09:25 AM
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I think the better adjective to describe the eyes of the judges would be "experienced". The training was completed years ago. The location of the event is meaningless. Most of the participants will be arriving to the event from locales outside of New York, and in some cases outside of the U.S. If the Panasonic was available for purchase in the states, I'm certain it would have been part of the this event.

Interesting to note is that the Panasonic also uses an LG panel. So here we go again with the "superior" processing that makes one display possess better PQ than another - even though the panels are essentially the same. The lack of Dolby Vision is a deal breaker. In order for a TV to handle DV, it needs a very powerful SoC and DV is not freeware. Unlike HDR-10 which can be implemented through software, if the TV can't do DV now, there will be no adding it later. There's two disappointing cost cutting corners that Panasonic chose to take.
i'm using the adjective a sound recording engineer made to me when we were once debating the sennheiser hd 600.

With the location, i meant this was an american event being held in new york,america and since panasonic hasnt launched in america, we won't see the panasonic oleds part of the shootout.

All three brands (lg sony panasonic) are currently using lg panels. But the processing engine is obviously also a determining factor. The enormous price and lack of DV is the biggest drawback of the panasonic 2017 oleds, i mentioned that in the pan.oled thread. The panasonic oleds do seem to support HLG out of the box. The sony A1E doesn't have DV yet, they say it would come via a firmware update. I doubt panasonic has a provision to make their current oleds DV compatible with a fw update, they have been touting that with their superior processing engine, they dont need DV (< this is the reason the panasonic PR has been giving out for not supporting DV) . For panasonic to be competitive, they need to lower their prices and hop on to the DV banwagon with the 2018 models. The motion and black level is ace on the current panasonic. the near black handling is better than lg, i did not notice screen uniformity issues but i'll have to look closer at the screen and for a longer period of time to conclude that it isn't there than the 15 minutes i saw it on demo.

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post #246 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 09:40 AM
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Yes, people who don't train, don't possess the benefits of that training. A surgeon trains to use a scalpel. A pilot trains to fly a plane. A runner trains for a marathon and a boxer trains to fight. Without that training, one's physical abilities are not as well honed. I like driving cars but I am not trained at driving Indycars so I have no chance of winning the Indy 500.

There is a big difference between claiming some unusual genetic trait like super-human visual acuity (like being able to see infrared light) and having training that lets you perform specific tasks better than a person who lacks training.

Of course there are cases where it helps to combine training with doing a task that you are physically gifted at. So, if you have 20/10 vision and have training in mastering 4K HDR video, you may very well be able to see more issues with a display than a glasses or contacts-wearing lawyer who just walked into an electronics store to look at and perhaps purchase a TV.
According to rtings the dimming scheme on the Q9 doesn't perform very well other than being able to maintain blacks on the top and bottom bars while you have praised its dimming scheme. Even trained folks have discrepancies and being human bias/agendas cannot be completely ruled out.

It has been mentioned that if HDR is given heavy weight that this will favor the LCD displays given they can get much better. With high APL and bright detail that appears to be true but with low APL which is much more prevalent with movies they are actually at a disadvantage IMO. OLED can maintain black levels and peak brightness at the same time with specular highlights while the dimming scheme (which is essential for HDR) of LCD has to mute light output to avoid blooming and elevated black levels. An extreme example would be a star field where the blacks are more of a dark gray and the stars lack pin point brightness but this would also hold true to some extent with other specular highlights in dark scenes and in some cases LCD cannot help but reveal bad blooming effects. I don't think suggestions of bias lighting and turning more lights on is going to cut it with the judges at the shootout.

You would think the Q9 would be the most exposed here with the Sony Z9D being the least exposed perhaps to the extent that it is indeed the best overall display with HDR. But until bright venues such as sporting events are commonly broadcast/streamed in HDR then its hard to fathom LCD having the advantage many think they have.

In any event to an untrained bloke such as myself this is going to really hurt the Q9 compared to the others even with the P series when it comes to the control of black levels and contrast especially if they use HDR content/tests designed to expose blooming/haloing.

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post #247 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 09:53 AM
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i'm using the adjective a sound recording engineer made to me when we were once debating the sennheiser hd 600.

With the location, i meant this was an american event being held in new york,america and since panasonic hasnt launched in america, we won't see the panasonic oleds part of the shootout.

All three brands (lg sony panasonic) are currently using lg panels. But the processing engine is obviously also a determining factor. The enormous price and lack of DV is the biggest drawback of the panasonic 2017 oleds, i mentioned that in the pan.oled thread. The panasonic oleds do seem to support HLG out of the box. The sony A1E doesn't have DV yet, they say it would come via a firmware update. I doubt panasonic has a provision to make their current oleds DV compatible with a fw update, they have been touting that with their superior processing engine, they dont need DV (< this is the reason the panasonic PR has been giving out for not supporting DV) . For panasonic to be competitive, they need to lower their prices and hop on to the DV banwagon with the 2018 models. The motion and black level is ace on the current panasonic. the near black handling is better than lg, i did not notice screen uniformity issues but i'll have to look closer at the screen and for a longer period of time to conclude that it isn't there than the 15 minutes i saw it on demo.
I think many of us would covet a cheaper and of course the availability of a Panasonic OLED on our side of the pond.
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post #248 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 12:26 PM
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i'm using the adjective a sound recording engineer made to me when we were once debating the sennheiser hd 600.

With the location, i meant this was an american event being held in new york,america and since panasonic hasnt launched in america, we won't see the panasonic oleds part of the shootout.

For panasonic to be competitive, they need to lower their prices and hop on to the DV banwagon with the 2018 models. The motion and black level is ace on the current panasonic. the near black handling is better than lg, i did not notice screen uniformity issues but i'll have to look closer at the screen and for a longer period of time to conclude that it isn't there than the 15 minutes i saw it on demo.
Totally agree. It just doesn't make sense to have a TV in the competition that is not available for purchase in the U.S. If the Panny won the event, there would be angry people questioning why it was allowed if they can't buy one. Next year, with a lower price + DV and U.S. availability - that will be an awesome thing.
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post #249 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 12:53 PM
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According to rtings the dimming scheme on the Q9 doesn't perform very well other than being able to maintain blacks on the top and bottom bars while you have praised its dimming scheme. Even trained folks have discrepancies and being human bias/agendas cannot be completely ruled out.

It has been mentioned that if HDR is given heavy weight that this will favor the LCD displays given they can get much better. With high APL and bright detail that appears to be true but with low APL which is much more prevalent with movies they are actually at a disadvantage IMO. OLED can maintain black levels and peak brightness at the same time with specular highlights while the dimming scheme (which is essential for HDR) of LCD has to mute light output to avoid blooming and elevated black levels. An extreme example would be a star field where the blacks are more of a dark gray and the stars lack pin point brightness but this would also hold true to some extent with other specular highlights in dark scenes and in some cases LCD cannot help but reveal bad blooming effects. I don't think suggestions of bias lighting and turning more lights on is going to cut it with the judges at the shootout.

You would think the Q9 would be the most exposed here with the Sony Z9D being the least exposed perhaps to the extent that it is indeed the best overall display with HDR. But until bright venues such as sporting events are commonly broadcast/streamed in HDR then its hard to fathom LCD having the advantage many think they have.

In any event to an untrained bloke such as myself this is going to really hurt the Q9 compared to the others even with the P series when it comes to the control of black levels and contrast especially if they use HDR content/tests designed to expose blooming/haloing.
I've certainly noted numerous times that the Q9F would be an even better TV if it had FALD instead of being a 32-zone edgelit unit. That's undeniable. It's also a fact it does handle letterbox bars well. You won't find me arguing that Samsung could not have done better in that regard, but you also won't find me joining the crowd that thinks the TV can't produce a phenomenal looking picture much of the time, despite that limitation.

Starfields and all that, yes hello everyone knows OLED does that better at this point. And by everyone I mean the few people who care and spend lots of time discussing starfield on Internet forums. I can't see why someone obsessed with looking at starfields would not buy an OLED, it's absolutely what that technology is best at.

I have nothing invested in how any TV does at this year's "Annual TV Shootout" but I am curious to see how the new structure, with multiple categories up for grabs, only pros voting, Kevin Miller being back in the mix, and the event itself now being under the aegis of CE Week instead of being a Value Electronics (i.e. dealer sponsored) event.

Having said all that, it's hard to see how the Z9D is not the champion emissive LCD at this point and time. That does not mean the Q9F is not a compelling TV, especially for use in brighter spaces (forget bias lights, no family is gonna use one of those in a living room, lol).

Yes, enthusiasts have different priorities and that's fantastic because the stats don't lie.... 5% of TVs sold (i.e. expensive high-end models) = 20% of industry revenue and 40% of industry profit. In the grand scheme of things, these TVs matter.

TCL showed that you can put out a compelling 55" TV for $600. To me that's more interesting than what any of these flagship models can do. I want to see HDR support become ubiquitous, frankly I don't care which top model any one individual thinks is the best. Clearly people do not agree on that topic and will spend a lot of time arguing it.
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post #250 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 12:56 PM
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Totally agree. It just doesn't make sense to have a TV in the competition that is not available for purchase in the U.S. If the Panny won the event, there would be angry people questioning why it was allowed if they can't buy one. Next year, with a lower price + DV and U.S. availability - that will be an awesome thing.
Kind of surprising that panasonic was still present at ces earlier this year in january at las vegas. if i correctly remember watching ces, panasonic was present on the show floor demoing their oled. I do agree if they dont want to do business in the US, they shouldn't be included in shootouts or even bother participating in tech shows in US. And what with that slogan they're advertising their oleds with.. "hollywood" to the home..change it to cinema or something. Not that i have an issue with it, but it's kinda hypocritical when you aren't doing business in the home country of hollywood.
ps - i have my folks living in the states and they feel they are limited in their oled choices of either lg or sony, they would like demoing a panasonic before they make a choice on oled. Let's see if panasonic can get more aggressive with their pricing and suppporting more territories in 2018.

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post #251 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 01:04 PM
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Kind of surprising that panasonic was still present at ces earlier this year in january at las vegas. if i correctly remember watching ces, panasonic was present on the show floor demoing their oled. I do agree if they dont want to do business in the US, they shouldn't be included in shootouts or even bother participating in tech shows in US. And what with that slogan they're advertising their oleds with.. "hollywood" to the home..change it to cinema or something. Not that i have an issue with it, but it's kinda hypocritical when you aren't doing business in the home country of hollywood.
ps - i have my folks living in the states and they feel they are limited in their oled choices of either lg or sony, they would like demoing a panasonic before they make a choice on oled. Let's see if panasonic can get more aggressive with their pricing and suppporting more territories in 2018.
CES is an international show. Hollywood movies have international appeal and are produced at locations around the world with financing that comes from around the world. Panasonic would like to re-enter the U.S. market for TVs.

CES used to be called " The International Consumer Electronics Show" and the description it uses on the CES website today is "CES is a global consumer electronics and consumer technology tradeshow that takes place every January in Las Vegas, Nevada."
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post #252 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 02:46 PM
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I've certainly noted numerous times that the Q9F would be an even better TV if it had FALD instead of being a 32-zone edgelit unit. That's undeniable. It's also a fact it does handle letterbox bars well. You won't find me arguing that Samsung could not have done better in that regard, but you also won't find me joining the crowd that thinks the TV can't produce a phenomenal looking picture much of the time, despite that limitation.

Starfields and all that, yes hello everyone knows OLED does that better at this point. And by everyone I mean the few people who care and spend lots of time discussing starfield on Internet forums. I can't see why someone obsessed with looking at starfields would not buy an OLED, it's absolutely what that technology is best at.

I have nothing invested in how any TV does at this year's "Annual TV Shootout" but I am curious to see how the new structure, with multiple categories up for grabs, only pros voting, Kevin Miller being back in the mix, and the event itself now being under the aegis of CE Week instead of being a Value Electronics (i.e. dealer sponsored) event.

Having said all that, it's hard to see how the Z9D is not the champion emissive LCD at this point and time. That does not mean the Q9F is not a compelling TV, especially for use in brighter spaces (forget bias lights, no family is gonna use one of those in a living room, lol).

Yes, enthusiasts have different priorities and that's fantastic because the stats don't lie.... 5% of TVs sold (i.e. expensive high-end models) = 20% of industry revenue and 40% of industry profit. In the grand scheme of things, these TVs matter.

TCL showed that you can put out a compelling 55" TV for $600. To me that's more interesting than what any of these flagship models can do. I want to see HDR support become ubiquitous, frankly I don't care which top model any one individual thinks is the best. Clearly people do not agree on that topic and will spend a lot of time arguing it.
I didn't mean to strike a nerve with star fields but it is an indication of how well/precise specular highlights in general are handled on OLED.

40% profit? I thought the industry would be losing money given how often AVS members do exchanges and returns.

As for the shootout isn't Value Electronics still going to be providing the televisions or will the manufacturers being that now?

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post #253 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 03:16 PM
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I didn't mean to strike a nerve with star fields but it is an indication of how well/precise specular highlights in general are handled on OLED.

40% profit? I thought the industry would be losing money given how often AVS members do exchanges and returns.

As for the shootout isn't Value Electronics still going to be providing the televisions or will the manufacturers being that now?
Kevin Miller told me the televisions would be purchased from a New York City retailer. Without further details, I don't know that that means but I know that Value Electronics is located in Scarsdale and not New York City.

So it's not totally clear where the TVs are coming from, but that's what Kevin provided me in terms of an answer.
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post #254 of 336 Old 06-18-2017, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on the shootout:


Robert says the wheels are in motion to have the shootout streamed via Youtube live in 4k with HLG HDR.

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Also, Robert still has between 30 and 40 VIP passes available. These can be obtained by directly emailing him. Will post more info tomorrow.

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post #256 of 336 Old 06-19-2017, 11:18 AM
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Vizio cooks its own silicone, and integrates DV into their SoC.
Vizio does not make their own chips. They certainly don't fab them, and I'm quite sure they didn't design them in house either. At best they might have had someone else design it for them based on their requirements, but that's not making your own chips.
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post #257 of 336 Old 06-19-2017, 11:24 AM
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Since it doesn't appear that the Panasonic OLED will be making it into the US shootout this year - it looks like the Crampton & Moore (UK) shootout will be the only definitive one as far as best TV for 2017.
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The inclusion of the Panasonic in their shootout won't do much good for U.S. buyers.
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post #259 of 336 Old 06-19-2017, 01:48 PM
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There's always next year (which has been the ongoing theme for 4 years now), right? Don't believe everything you read no matter how reliable you may deem the source.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Vizio does not make their own chips. They certainly don't fab them, and I'm quite sure they didn't design them in house either. At best they might have had someone else design it for them based on their requirements, but that's not making your own chips.
I meant that they designed them in-house. Vizio was the first TV manufacturer in the world to offer DV when they introduced the R series in 2014. During that development process, they worked closely with Dolby to design and spec out the basic SoC that would eventually land on their lower tier models such as the P and M series. Obviously, they don't have a fab plant, but neither does Apple. I think if you took a closer look at Vizio you would be surprised how cutting edge they actually are. It's one of the reasons why their PQ gives the competition fits. If you don't want to believe me, just ask Matt McRae, Vizio's CTO.
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post #261 of 336 Old 06-20-2017, 04:25 AM
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I meant that they designed them in-house. Vizio was the first TV manufacturer in the world to offer DV when they introduced the R series in 2014.
That may be but for years the Rseries was only a demo TV. And in the end only a few of those were sold with the AVS owner thread starting in 2016. The guy/owner who started the thread was the only owner participating in it. In the end he returned it because he felt it was to expensive. The Rseries also participated in THE 2016 Shootout in which it ended last. Not shure if i would call that cutting edge...
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During that development process, they worked closely with Dolby to design and spec out the basic SoC that would eventually land on their lower tier models such as the P and M series. Obviously, they don't have a fab plant, but neither does Apple. I think if you took a closer look at Vizio you would be surprised how cutting edge they actually are. It's one of the reasons why their PQ gives the competition fits. If you don't want to believe me, just ask Matt McRae, Vizio's CTO.
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That may be but for years the Rseries was only a demo TV. And in the end only a few of those were sold with the AVS owner thread starting in 2016. The guy/owner who started the thread was the only owner participating in it. In the end he returned it because he felt it was to expensive. The Rseries also participated in THE 2016 Shootout in which it ended last.Not shure if i would call that cutting edge...
I'll say this as carefully and diplomatically as I can... last year's shootout could have been executed better. This year's event will address numerous known issues with what happened last year.

For example, the Vizio Reference at last year's event had FALD shut off for a portion of the shootout (Kevin Miller caught that and fixed it even though he was not participating), and the Samsung KS9800 was defective in that it has a non-working LED in the FALD array that created a grapefruit-sized dark spot. Kevin assured me that at this year's event, which he is now involved in again, such oversights will not occur.

Also, the P-series is the TV that should have been up on that wall last year. Really, nobody wanted the Vizio Reference in the mix instead of the P-Series, aside from the folks who put on the show. I pushed hard for the P-series with the agreement and support of numerous commenters here in the forum.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if it competes this year since presumably the other TVs will be one generation newer in terms of hardware while the P Series depends on software improvements. Based on what I have read, Vizio has worked hard to enhance the P-series FALD algorithm.

I think this year's shootout is the first one to address the many issues with how it used to be run. The name of the event is the first clue, it no longer has the name of a retailer in it. Having 3 "winning" categories instead of one "King of TVs" acknowledges that TVs are used for different things by different people, and having a panel of pros do the voting instead of the audience assures that all participants evaluate the TVs properly and don't just "phone it in" based on their personal preference for one company or technology over another.

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I'll say this as carefully and diplomatically as I can... last year's shootout could have been executed better. This year's event will address numerous known issues with what happened last year.

For example, the Vizio Reference at last year's event had FALD shut off for a portion of the shootout (Kevin Miller caught that and fixed it even though he was not participating), and the Samsung KS9800 was defective in that it has a non-working LED in the FALD array that created a grapefruit-sized dark spot. Kevin assured me that at this year's event, which he is now involved in again, such oversights will not occur.
You just stated in a post above that the TVs will purchased from a New York retailer which means that there could be something wrong with one of them, and it might needs to be returned, right? So they could end up with another partially defective TV. Or will it be cherry picking? I would like to see some transparency on that from them.
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Also, the P-series is the TV that should have been up on that wall last year. Really, nobody wanted the Vizio Reference in the mix instead of the P-Series, aside from the folks who put on the show. I pushed hard for the P-series with the agreement and support of numerous commenters here in the forum.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if it competes this year since presumably the other TVs will be one generation newer in terms of hardware while the P Series depends on software improvements. Based on what I have read, Vizio has worked hard to enhance the P-series FALD algorithm.
It is the elitist approach, the expensive top of the line thing, that always prevented TV models like that participating. It really is some sort of capitalist-ish thing when i think of it.
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I think this year's shootout is the first one to address the many issues with how it used to be run. The name of the event is the first clue, it no longer has the name of a retailer in it. Having 3 "winning" categories instead of one "King of TVs" acknowledges that TVs are used for different things by different people, and having a panel of pros do the voting instead of the audience assures that all participants evaluate the TVs properly and don't just "phone it in" based on their personal preference for one company or technology over another.
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and having a panel of pros do the voting instead of the audience assures that all participants evaluate the TVs properly and don't just "phone it in" based on their personal preference for one company or technology over another.
With you all the way up to this point. Pro's have their own biases as well. They are still people. Not saying that I wouldn't rather pros judge the event, but saying that it "assures" no personal preference enters into the equation, is a bridge too far.
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With you all the way up to this point. Pro's have their own biases as well. They are still people. Not saying that I wouldn't rather pros judge the event, but saying that it "assures" no personal preference enters into the equation, is a bridge too far.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I don't expect bias to be eliminated, just accounted for. All I meant by that the judges will be more rigorous in terms of evaluating each TV per the instructions of Joel Silver and Kevin Miller. Nothing is assured.

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post #266 of 336 Old 06-20-2017, 08:02 AM
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You just stated in a post above that the TVs will purchased from a New York retailer which means that there could be something wrong with one of them, and it might needs to be returned, right? So they could end up with another partially defective TV. Or will it be cherry picking? I would like to see some transparency on that from them.

It is the elitist approach, the expensive top of the line thing, that always prevented TV models like that participating. It really is some sort of capitalist-ish thing when i think of it.
Kevin explicitly said a defective TV would not make the cut and would be exchanged for a working TV, but that no way is a defective TV going to be featured in this year's event.

Cherry picking? Certainly we've all seen many enthusiasts get very picky about panels and exchange them for issues that many or may not rise to the level of defect. The main point is... last year a defective TV was in the mix. This year, the promise is that will not happen.

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post #267 of 336 Old 06-20-2017, 08:06 AM
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I'll say this as carefully and diplomatically as I can... last year's shootout could have been executed better. This year's event will address numerous known issues with what happened last year.

For example, the Vizio Reference at last year's event had FALD shut off for a portion of the shootout (Kevin Miller caught that and fixed it even though he was not participating), and the Samsung KS9800 was defective in that it has a non-working LED in the FALD array that created a grapefruit-sized dark spot. Kevin assured me that at this year's event, which he is now involved in again, such oversights will not occur.

Also, the P-series is the TV that should have been up on that wall last year. Really, nobody wanted the Vizio Reference in the mix instead of the P-Series, aside from the folks who put on the show. I pushed hard for the P-series with the agreement and support of numerous commenters here in the forum.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if it competes this year since presumably the other TVs will be one generation newer in terms of hardware while the P Series depends on software improvements. Based on what I have read, Vizio has worked hard to enhance the P-series FALD algorithm.

I think this year's shootout is the first one to address the many issues with how it used to be run. The name of the event is the first clue, it no longer has the name of a retailer in it. Having 3 "winning" categories instead of one "King of TVs" acknowledges that TVs are used for different things by different people, and having a panel of pros do the voting instead of the audience assures that all participants evaluate the TVs properly and don't just "phone it in" based on their personal preference for one company or technology over another.
The thinking of the shootout has always been the 'best of the best'. So it's logical an R series would have been suggested over a P series. This is nothing new. It's the same reason a FALD Sony would take precedent over an edge lit Sony...even though more people will buy the edge lit due to price.

The shootout is geared toward videophiles, not Joe Sixpack. If it was the latter, we'd have seen a P series or less and Sony edge lit displays. Instead we have OLEDs and, the 'best of the best'.
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The thinking of the shootout has always been the 'best of the best'. So it's logical an R series would have been suggested over a P series. This is nothing new. It's the same reason a FALD Sony would take precedent over an edge lit Sony...even though more people will buy the edge lit due to price.

The shootout is geared toward videophiles, not Joe Sixpack. If it was the latter, we'd have seen a P series or less and Sony edge lit displays. Instead we have OLEDs and, the 'best of the best'.
Then explain why there's a good chance the P-Series makes the cut this year. While you are at it, explain your elitist comment about joe sixpack, too. Are you saying that you have to be rich to be a videophile? We're not talking about yachts and helicopters here, these TVs are still in the realm of possibility for someone who works for a living.

Well, as you know, the shootout has in fact changed for 2017, so I guess it's a new era. The HDR era. Oh yeah! |

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It is the elitist approach, the expensive top of the line thing, that always prevented TV models like that participating. It really is some sort of capitalist-ish thing when i think of it.
Who knows. But it's nice to see there's a chance this year will have a high-performance "value" option in the mix.

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post #269 of 336 Old 06-20-2017, 08:16 AM
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Then explain why there's a good chance the P-Series makes the cut this year. While you are at it, explain your elitist comment about joe sixpack, too. Are you saying that you have to be rich to be a videophile?

Well, as you know, the shootout has in fact changed for 2017, so I guess it's a new era. The HDR era. Oh yeah!
Please Mark, please. You're not a new to AVS are you? You don't yet know what "Joe Sixpack" means? It's not an elitist remark at all. I'm a Joe Sixpack when it comes to certain things in life. I don't need the best in terms of clothing labels. Middle of the road suits me just fine. Even in the world of audio, I don't need the best and I suspect that audiophiles would judge me a "Joe Sixpack" here too. Do I care? No, not at all. You'll just get a wink and a nod by calling me Joe Sixpack for these things.

Video however is more of a passion for me. So your 'elitist' remark is just silly.

Now as far as being 'rich' to be a videophile, of course not. However let's be realistic here. There are things in life that many of us 'wish' we could afford, but can't. So for some videophiles, audiophiles, car enthusiasts and a huge list of other items, yes, you may need to be 'well-healed' to afford the best. That's just a fact of life Mark.
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Please Mark, please. You're not a new to AVS are you? You don't yet know what "Joe Sixpack" means? It's not an elitist remark at all. I'm a Joe Sixpack when it comes to certain things in life. I don't need the best in terms of clothing labels. Middle of the road suits me just fine. Even in the world of audio, I don't need the best and I suspect that audiophiles would judge me a "Joe Sixpack" here too. Do I care? No, not at all. You'll just get a wink and a nod by calling me Joe Sixpack for these things.

Video however is more of a passion for me. So your 'elitist' remark is just silly.

Now as far as being 'rich' to be a videophile, of course not. However let's be realistic here. There are things in life that many of us 'wish' we could afford, but can't. So for some videophiles, audiophiles, car enthusiasts and a huge list of other items, yes, you may need to be 'well-healed' to afford the best. That's just a fact of life Mark.
I stand corrected
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