2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 92 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2731 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Correct, so with DC:OFF, the LG is tone mapping to 4000 nits which is why 100 nits is dark and the reason for this dynamic metadata. If you turn DC:Low, the picture will brighten up a lot because the set will be minimally tone mapping, or may not at all if the overall picture is 100 nits. Phil Jones explains this about the A1 and the LG has to be doing similar processing.
DC:Low does not significantly brighten this 10000 nit mastered pattern because there is a gradient on the top and bottom. This pattern shows how the tone-mapping and dynamic contrast interact; the LG performs closely to the underlying tone-mapping defined by Cinema mode.

Sony may be similar in providing dynamic metadata but has very little tone-mapping (not sure).
LG mapping is very aggressive, targeted to preserving all highlights. I
f LG provided other tone-mapping curves on Cinema mode, then DC:Low could be tuned better to the users liking.
In my case, I would like to preserve the EOTF tracking to a much higher nit level.

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post #2732 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
I do understand.

I understand you're continuing to spread misinformation, because Vincent updated his A1E review with the android 7 update and guess what, it still clips and the curves for 1000 nit and 4000 nit content are essentially the same.

"With the Android 7 Nougat update, what Sony appeared to have done was to lower the clipping point in [Cinema pro] preset by altering the default [Contrast] value in HDR mode, therefore bringing its PQ EOTF tracking closer to the ST.2084 standard, as you can see from the following charts:"

come on man. this blatant spreading of false information to defend the A1E is getting old and tired and raises some huge red flags in my book.
^^^
I'm done
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post #2733 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:13 AM
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Al says LG owners are insecure after the shootout, yet he's still peddling his assertion that the Sony is superior.

Anyone see the irony in that?

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He comes across as a pseudo intellectual with what appears to be very little self awareness and a penchant for humble bragging, lol.


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I mean can anyone provide proof that the Sony A1E dynamically tone maps HDR10 content rather than just clips?

Because all the reviews have said it clips.

All of the videos and images show that it just clips.

Only people that say it dynamically tone maps are some sony defenders on this forum and some marketing jargon.

Until there's any proof to counter the photographic evidence and testimony by highly respected reviewers such as Vincent Teoh, I'm going to continue believing that a select few are just in serious bitter defense mode spreading complete misinformation after their TV lost a meaningless shoot out and equate "well it's nitpicking but the LG is slightly better" to some highly offensive statement that tarnishes the brand image of a particular manufacturer.
One last comment, why can't you understand that Vincent's video has an A1 with the old operating system with the old tone mapping where the A1 did clip. With the Andriod 7 update, the tone mapping was updated and the tone mapping doesn't just clip everything like it did when the set was first released.
What's funny is Vincent's video was really a response as to why the test pattern measurements of the C7 read higher than the A1 but in actual content playback the A1 brightness was outperforming..

It was a video to explain "why" users were seeing this..

With that video, he showed what the LG OLED couldn't do as in clipping.. Vincent made it very clear that no one should misconstrue the tone mapping explanation video with what the A1E can do with being adjusted to deliver proper highlights.. Enter the world renound AVS LG members!

Just click my signature and you'll see pictures of the Vincent frames being delivered with better detail and brightness than both the C7 and Panasonic in Vincent video..

Now, anyone with the winning set are free to show some of their frames with BW face not so muddled dark from LG's tone mapping scheme..

On the A1 it's as simple as popping in BvS 4K UHD on an OPPO 203:

1) Click my signature link
2) punch in the A1 settings
3) Dial down the Contrast between 70-93 for the desired tone mapping resampling level.

Of course, an A1E is required.

Last edited by Al Leong; 07-26-2017 at 09:16 AM.
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post #2734 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:13 AM
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Hurt Locker beat Avatar with the Oscar for movie of the year..

Hurt Locker is the better film too...
Haha divorced directors duking it out for a little statue. I can "feel" Kathryn Bigelow's influence in early Cameron flicks.
Lol yep
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post #2735 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
What's funny is Vincent's video was really a response as to why the test pattern measurements of the C7 read higher than the A1 but in actual content playback the A1 brightness was outperforming..

It was a video to explain "why" users were seeing this..

With that video, he showed what the LG OLED couldn't do as in clipping.. Vincent made it very clear that no one should misconstrue the tone mapping explanation video with what the A1E can do with being adjusted to deliver proper highlights..

Just click my signature and you'll see pictures of the Vincent frames being delivered with better detail and brightness than both the C7 and Panasonic in Vincent video..

Now, anyone with the winning set are free to show some of their frames with BW face not sow muddled from LG's tone mapping scheme..

On the A1 it's as simple as popping in BvS 4K UHD on an OPPO 203:

1) Click my signature link
2) punch in the A1 settings
3) Dial down the Contrast between 70-93 for the desired tone mapping resampling level.

Of course, an A1E is required.
All your settings do is just lower contrast to an unreasonable point to preserve highlight detail and destroy the luminance curve. Did you already forget where someone actually tested your settings and showed how unbelievably off and low it was at every single luminance tracking point?
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post #2736 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:15 AM
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^^^
I'm done
You win some you loose some. Can't convince everyone!
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post #2737 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
I do understand.

I understand you're continuing to spread misinformation, because Vincent updated his A1E review with the android 7 update and guess what, it still clips and the curves for 1000 nit and 4000 nit content are essentially the same.

"With the Android 7 Nougat update, what Sony appeared to have done was to lower the clipping point in [Cinema pro] preset by altering the default [Contrast] value in HDR mode, therefore bringing its PQ EOTF tracking closer to the ST.2084 standard, as you can see from the following charts:"

"From what we can interpret from these charts, the Sony A1 OLED does not attempt to differentiate between 1000-nit and 4000-nit HDR10 content – it uses the same tone-mapping curve. For comparison, please check out the PQ EOTF tracking charts of the LG B7 and Loewe bild 7, two HDR TVs which apply different tone-mapping curves for 1000-nit and 4000-nit material respectively so they can retain bright specular highlights at the expense of lowering overall brightness. "

i.e. it doesn't dynamically tone map, because if it did, it would retain bright specular highlights, not apply the same darn curve to 1000 nit and 4000 nit content!!!!!

come on man. this blatant spreading of false information to defend the A1E is getting old and tired and raises some huge red flags in my book.
What does any of that have to do with dynamic metadata? Fixed metadata will inform a TV what luminance the content is mastered to, no need for dynamic metadata. And tonemapping highlights does not need dynamic metadata to work, as is clear since TVs that do not offer built-in dynamic metadata processing still have highlight tonemapping capability.
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post #2738 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:19 AM
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@imagic : You should read the post above yours. You'll be blue in the face with this argument!
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post #2739 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
What does any of that have to do with dynamic metadata? Fixed metadata will inform a TV what luminance the content is mastered to, no need for dynamic metadata. And tonemapping highlights does not need dynamic metadata to work, as is clear since TVs that do not offer built-in dynamic metadata processing still have highlight tonemapping capability.
What does it have to do with dynamic metadata?

Really?

It has everything to do with dynamic metadata!

applying a different curve to a scene with different max white values is the entire POINT of dynamic metadata and dynamic tone mapping!

If it's applying the same exact darn curve to a 1,000 max nit scene and a 4,000 nit scene as we're seeing with the A1E, there's nothing dynamic about it! if it WERE dynamic, it would have the curve change depending on the maximum brightness of the image being displayed!

dynamic tone mapping LITERALLY means crunching the curve to fit the entire luminance range beyond what the display is capable of when there's such an image, and then letting the curve breath and expanding it when the image fits within the confines of the displays capabilities. Applying the same curve for any type of content being displayed is static BY DEFINITION! This is elementary, man!
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post #2740 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:24 AM
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i.e. it doesn't dynamically tone map, because if it did, it would retain bright specular highlights, not apply the same darn curve to 1000 nit and 4000 nit content!!!!!
Could you point us to the relevant industry standards on the correct tone mapping algorithm? Thank you!
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post #2741 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:25 AM
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@imagic : You should read the post above yours. You'll be blue in the face with this argument!
I just ate two hot dogs and am procrastinating writing up a press release on a couple of AVRs. Kinda just hanging around here for the fun of it. If it was creating stress or grew into too much of a distraction, suppose I'd go cold turkey. But, because I have speech recognition, I enjoy yammering away into my microphone.
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post #2742 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:26 AM
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Could you point us to the relevant industry standards on the correct tone mapping algorithm? Thank you!
there is no industry standard on a correct tone mapping algorithm.

However, the point i'm making isn't that there's a standard.

The point i'm making is that if you're applying the same curve (no matter what that curve is - perhaps an industry standard that you're asking about) regardless of the brightness of a scene, you're using static tone mapping, because that's what static means - THE SAME. Which is what the A1E does.

if you change the tone mapping curve based on what's on the scene then you are doing it dynamically. Which is what the LG does with active HDR.

I'm merely pointing out that people saying the A1E has the same dynamic tone mapping feature that the LG does are spreading misinformation or just outright lying or both.
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post #2743 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:26 AM
 
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Telling from someone rocking the big-dog W7...
And your point?

That just makes it even more comical. You own both TV's yet you just can't let the shootout results go. You just *have* to reaffirm that what you think is best is best. Like a kid who's team just lost touch football on the playground but insists they were better all throughout lunch period to anyone who will listen.

Let it go, Al. Your insecurities are showing.

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post #2744 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:42 AM
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It wasn't the cat reference that made me think you were referencing the review, but rather the pigeon reference. What was that relevant to?
Humblest apologies... I just checked and that's exclusively an English idiom, so lost in translation! I have also made a note to start spelling colour correctly as well...

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BTW, I'll be willing to be that microLED will have its own set of issues. Every improved tech always does.
What's your opinion regarding CLEDIS?
.
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post #2745 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:44 AM
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Telling from someone rocking the big-dog W7...
And your point?

That just makes it even more comical. You own both TV's yet you just can't let the shootout results go. You just *have* to reaffirm that what you think is best is best. Like a kid who's team just lost touch football on the playground but insists they were better all throughout lunch period to anyone who will listen.

Let it go, Al. Your insecurities are showing.

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W7 and A1 owner..

Jealousy is not a discussion Hey Zeus!
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post #2746 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:45 AM
 
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W7 and A1 owner..

Jealousy is not a discussion Hey Zeus!
If you're implying I'm jealous....thanks for the laughs today. Yet again reaffirming your personality for what it is: materialistic.

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post #2747 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:47 AM
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As for stirring the pot, what's left to do in this thread but stir? It's "leftover soup." I doubt any casual reader is gonna reach comment number two thousand six hundred whatever, lol.
I have a leftover 4 ya..

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post #2748 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:51 AM
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Hurt Locker beat Avatar with the Oscar for movie of the year..

Hurt Locker is the better film too...
Just one last thing. And it won best picture. lol Couldn't resist.
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post #2749 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:53 AM
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W7 and A1 owner..

Jealousy is not a discussion Hey Zeus!
If you're implying I'm jealous....thanks for the laughs today. Yet again reaffirming your personality for what it is: materialistic.

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You are trying to give a moral lesson at AVS Forums.. the place high-end gear is the topic!?!?
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post #2750 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 09:56 AM
 
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You are trying to give a moral lesson at AVS Forums.. the place high-end gear is the topic!?!?
Well, actually.... All audio and video is the topic. Yes even people who can *only* afford a $250 Denon AVR or an $800 Vizio can participate and give equal knowledge of the science and understanding behind it.

Money doesn't buy knowledge or status among the discussions on here. Shocking, I know.

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post #2751 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:22 AM
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Maybe they'll deliver sound on glass, DCI and Adobe RGB color spaces for pros and black frame insertion..
You use the TV built in sound system then ?
Or is it just a total waste of money ?
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post #2752 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:24 AM
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No A1 HDR10 dynamic tone mapping only Lg oleds that managed that ...
Well the A1 keeps loosing its over hyped on the forum.

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post #2753 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:25 AM
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All 2017 LG Oleds have the same PQ. You are paying for the aesthetic.

There are panel to panel variance on all the models.


Im not the only one who says this but also LG and experts.
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post #2754 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:27 AM
 
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All 2017 LG Oleds have the same PQ. You are paying for the aesthetic.

There are panel to panel variance on all the models.
Do you own a W7? No. Then you don't sit at the *big boy table* and therefore have no room to comment.

/sarcasm

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post #2755 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:28 AM
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Humblest apologies... I just checked and that's exclusively an English idiom, so lost in translation! I have also made a note to start spelling colour correctly as well...

What's your opinion regarding CLEDIS?
.
Don't ever capitulate ! We Brits OWN the English Language.
I understood perfectly what you meant with regard to pigeons.
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post #2756 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:30 AM
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Se more and more why the Sony A1 lost over nye E7 on the shootout.
Never buy a first gen tv product LESSON!!!

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post #2757 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:33 AM
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If you take individual experience into account, my experience with a Samsung refrigerator bought a year ago is zero problems. There is always the issue of unit to unit variability. The Koreans seem to be improving the quality of their products year over year. Certainly today's LG products are in a different league than the Lucky Goldstar products of a decade or two ago. Same with Kia and Hyundai. When these guys start to compete in a world-wide market, they have to match up with the better competitive products if they want to grab a significant market share. Of course, there are people who will always buy cheap junk simply because its cheap and then throw it away when it breaks. What these buyers don't realize is that this approach to buying is usually more expensive over a decade or so. My father used to say "the best is the cheapest" and I think there's a lot of truth in that.
You probably hit the "refrigerator lottery". Not to be off topic, but if you go to independent websites and read reviews LG/Samsung washer, dryers and refrigerators had more complaints than brands like Maytag, Kenmore and parent Whirlpool! I also understand that they are improving quality like the American car companies....
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post #2758 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:36 AM
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Do you own a W7? No. Then you don't sit at the *big boy table* and therefore have no room to comment.

/sarcasm

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By the way more people will pick the G over the W. because it can be placed on the wall or stand.
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post #2759 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:36 AM
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No A1 HDR10 dynamic tone mapping only Lg oleds that managed that ...
Well the A1 keeps loosing its over hyped on the forum.

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Se more and more why the Sony A1 lost over nye E7 on the shootout.
Never buy a first gen tv product LESSON!!!
I have theories about why some people write the way you do. Theories. I hope it's not that you are texting while driving, that's all.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-26-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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post #2760 of 3545 Old 07-26-2017, 10:42 AM
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By the way more people will pick the G over the W. because it can be placed on the wall or stand.
How do you know this for sure unless you have statistics on number of people who own TV stands to accommodate the G vs. wallmounted?
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