2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - Page 99 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2941 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Do you think that it looks that dramatic in person?


Cameras sensors struggle on capturing blacks.
It looked like this at the shootout and there was some content that was literally "blinding" on the Z9D.
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post #2942 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:48 AM
 
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Wasn't it established right after the results that the HDR category was judged on accuracy to the BVM and not overall brightness?

It's easy to show and say the Z9 is brighter next to the OLED's. But that doesn't mean it's more accurate, which was the purpose of having the mastering monitor on hand, no?

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post #2943 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:51 AM
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E7/G7 ownership thread now at 3,353.

Kind of ignoring the literal giant elephant in the room of the C7/B7 owner's thread with over 380k.....
When have multiple products in a line with reviews stating equal PQ across the board, it's going to swing toward the lower cost.
I stood in front of both the C7 and E7 hung side by side in the local Magnolia Store playing the same crappy feed and the LG E7 clearly had the better image. I will say I saw no difference between the E7 and G7 which the G7 was just a few feet over on a different stand.

It would of been nice to see the A1E and E7 side by side though...just saying

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post #2944 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Do you think that it looks that dramatic in person?
They would both look much brighter in person than on our PC monitors, but the actual difference between a near 2000 nit and a 700 nit set in person is much greater than the jpeg comparison here.
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post #2945 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Do you think that it looks that dramatic in person?


Cameras sensors struggle on capturing blacks.


Like it was mention earlier the camera can make things look much more different. The sensor will try to focus on bright things like the face on the dark scene and crush the blacks.

If you know how to take pictures i.e. use manual settings, and you have good gear, these things are not issues.

But, when it comes to many of the photos that people post on the Internet, these are issues.
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post #2946 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Wasn't it established right after the results that the HDR category was judged on accuracy to the BVM and not overall brightness?

It's easy to show and say the Z9 is brighter next to the OLED's. But that doesn't mean it's more accurate, which was the purpose of having the mastering monitor on hand, no?

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As many there will confirm, the LG and the Z9D were the closest to the mastering monitor.
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post #2947 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Wasn't it established right after the results that the HDR category was judged on accuracy to the BVM and not overall brightness?

It's easy to show and say the Z9 is brighter next to the OLED's. But that doesn't mean it's more accurate, which was the purpose of having the mastering monitor on hand, no?

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What's the peak brightness of that BVM, 1100 nits? Did they show any contents that were mastered at 4000 nits and more? I'd imagine if the BVM could peak at 2000 nits or more while displaying 4000 nits content then the Z9D would look much more accurate would it not?
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post #2948 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
As many there will confirm, the LG and the Z9D were the closest to the mastering monitor.
Right. But I was bringing it up to possibly remind people that higher nits, at this juncture*, doesn't necessarily mean more accurate HDR presentation. Which is why people can post photos showing an obvious nits difference in scene comparisons between the Z9 and OLED thinking that makes the Z9 more accurate...but without comparison to a reference source, which the shootout had, it's meaningless.

*By this juncture I mean any display that has to use tone mapping due to inadequate max nits to match the source material.



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post #2949 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by tmdorsey View Post
The thing is though this current debate all started over Vincent's video of Z9D vs the 2017, where according to Ken (I admit I haven't watched the video yet) Vincent says the Z9D doesn't do any dynamic tone mapping. Since the A1 and Z9D share the same processor you would think if A1 does tone mapping then so should the Z9D with anything that exceeds the max nit level of the display. In the Z9D's case it should be any content mastered at 4000 nits if I'm understanding all this correctly.
Sharing a processor does not mean running the same software.

If nothing else, the software would have needed to be changed to match the specs of the OLED panel rather then the LCD and backlight.

So it is perfectly plausible for the A1E to have features that the Z9D does not have and vice versa. After all the X1Extreme is probably managing backlight zones on the Z9D, which it wouldn't be doing on the A1E at all, which could even free up resources to do something else, possibly something that would be useful on the A1E and not that necessary on the Z9D.
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post #2950 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
If you know how to take pictures i.e. use manual settings, and you have good gear, these things are not issues.

But, when it comes to many of the photos that people post on the Internet, these are issues.
Don't you think that any camera , be it digital or emulsion film, introduces it's own contrast, resolution and colour issues ?
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post #2951 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:28 AM
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I noticed that the UK Shootout also wants to use (to ''secure'') a Sony professional broadcast monitor as reference, and the TVs will also be 65 inch. There will also be five TVs (though Vincent Teoh stated somewhere that he wanted to add two more OLED TVs)

Note: We are also trying to secure a Sony professional broadcast monitor to be used at the event for reference purposes.

All five TVs are 65-inchers to ensure the same screen size for a fair comparison
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/2017-...1707244487.htm
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post #2952 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Don't you think that any camera , be it digital or emulsion film, introduces it's own contrast, resolution and colour issues ?
Yes, no camera or lens is perfect. But, say the goal is to examine shadows, you can choose to expose for those shadows, use a good lens, a camera with a low-noise sensor, long, low-ISO exposures, and ultimately you'll illustrate the issue you want to discuss by minimizing the distorting influence of the camera.

Even the lenses in our own eyes are prone to halos, no lens is perfect. But, the key is to not bury the thing you wish to examine in shadows and noise. If you want to look at shadows, expose for them.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-27-2017 at 07:53 AM.
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What's the peak brightness of that BVM, 1100 nits? Did they show any contents that were mastered at 4000 nits and more? I'd imagine if the BVM could peak at 2000 nits or more while displaying 4000 nits content then the Z9D would look much more accurate would it not?
The BVM was 1000 nits.
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post #2954 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
The BVM was 1000 nits.
The Pulsar is the only 4000 nit monitor, right?

Caveat being its only 1080p?

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post #2955 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Wasn't it established right after the results that the HDR category was judged on accuracy to the BVM and not overall brightness?

It's easy to show and say the Z9 is brighter next to the OLED's. But that doesn't mean it's more accurate, which was the purpose of having the mastering monitor on hand, no?

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Z9 is absolutely more accurate than any other display in hdr brightness.

In calibrated hdr mode you get near perfect brightness tracking all the way up to 80% input level (1500nits), before tone mapping kicks in. In this calibrated cinema home mode, tone mapped details up to around 3000-4000nits are also preserved.





This type of performance is impossible on oled, with the Sony A1 beginning tone mapping around 60% input level, so any content with pixels brighter than around 240nits you are not getting what was intended due to tone mapping.


The numbers from the above readings suggest and are verified by the difference in performance in those shots of Pan from Vincent's video.
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post #2956 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes, no camera or lens is perfect. But, say the goal is to examine shadows, you can choose to expose for those shadows, use a good lens, a camera with a low-noise sensor, long, low-ISO exposures, and ultimately you'll illustrate the issue you want to discuss by minimizing the distorting influence of the camera.

Even the lenses in our own eyes are prone to halos, no lens is perfect. But, the key is to not bury the thing you wish to examine in shadows and noise. If you want to look at shadows, expose for them.
I get that but I was thinking mainly about differences, when shooting two or more displays, being exaggerated by the camera system regardless of how you try to mitigate. We seem to see a lot of that, even in high quality professional reviews.
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Now this, I think, we can all agree on as being positive and good for all. Right?!

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post #2959 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:22 AM
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@imagic I don't know if I missed it or not, but what was Phil from Sony response about the lack of dynamic tone mapping?
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post
Z9 is absolutely more accurate than any other display in hdr brightness.

In calibrated hdr mode you get near perfect brightness tracking all the way up to 80% input level (1500nits), before tone mapping kicks in. In this calibrated cinema home mode, tone mapped details up to around 3000-4000nits are also preserved.





This type of performance is impossible on oled, with the Sony A1 beginning tone mapping around 60% input level, so any content with pixels brighter than around 240nits you are not getting what was intended due to tone mapping.


The numbers from the above readings suggest and are verified by the difference in performance in those shots of Pan from Vincent's video.
Maybe I missed it during the early hours after results...but was it the lack of CMS that "doomed" the Z9 in terms of overall picture accuracy for the HDR category?

And please don't take my use of the word doomed as hyperbole. I mean it as, it has an obvious advantage in tone mapping and nits but because color was possibly ever so slightly off when next to the BVM that it just couldn't be awarded first in that category?

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post #2961 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:24 AM
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I noticed that the UK Shootout also wants to use (to ''secure'') a Sony professional broadcast monitor as reference, and the TVs will also be 65 inch. There will also be five TVs (though Vincent Teoh stated somewhere that he wanted to add two more OLED TVs)

Note: We are also trying to secure a Sony professional broadcast monitor to be used at the event for reference purposes.

All five TVs are 65-inchers to ensure the same screen size for a fair comparison
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/2017-...1707244487.htm
we will have to wait and see how the results pan out. Sounds to me a much better line up/tests that will actually give the results at the end for every tv individually. No participation trophys at the UK shootout!
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post #2962 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tmdorsey View Post
@imagic I don't know if I missed it or not, but what was Phil from Sony response about the lack of dynamic tone mapping?
His response was that the A1E does in fact have that feature, i.e. the ability to generate metadata for HDR10 content "on-the-fly." Unequivocally.

Here is my full post: 2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017
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post #2963 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
I get that but I was thinking mainly about differences, when shooting two or more displays, being exaggerated by the camera system regardless of how you try to mitigate. We seem to see a lot of that, even in high quality professional reviews.
Oh sure, if you try to focus on any detail, you're going to exaggerate it.
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The BVM was 1000 nits.
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Just to Get our Home Oleds to the magic 1000nits

Heres hoping 2018...
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post #2966 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Maybe I missed it during the early hours after results...but was it the lack of CMS that "doomed" the Z9 in terms of overall picture accuracy for the HDR category?

And please don't take my use of the word doomed as hyperbole. I mean it as, it has an obvious advantage in tone mapping and nits but because color was possibly ever so slightly off when next to the BVM that it just couldn't be awarded first in that category?

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No, the Z9D matched the reference monitor just as well as the LG. I think the judges just couldn't get over the off axis viewing.
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post #2967 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 10k View Post
Z9 is absolutely more accurate than any other display in hdr brightness.

In calibrated hdr mode you get near perfect brightness tracking all the way up to 80% input level (1500nits), before tone mapping kicks in. In this calibrated cinema home mode, tone mapped details up to around 3000-4000nits are also preserved.





This type of performance is impossible on oled, with the Sony A1 beginning tone mapping around 60% input level, so any content with pixels brighter than around 240nits you are not getting what was intended due to tone mapping.


The numbers from the above readings suggest and are verified by the difference in performance in those shots of Pan from Vincent's video.
10K, here is my latest A1E scan. It's a little more accurate but substantiates your point.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg A1EHDR10ptCP.jpeg (287.6 KB, 41 views)
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post #2968 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
No, the Z9D matched the reference monitor just as well as the LG. I think the judges just couldn't get over the off axis viewing.
Wasn't there also slight blooming as well?

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post #2969 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:13 AM
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Wasn't there also slight blooming as well?

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Yes but I have to say that the Z9D did an exceptional job given it is an LCD and for a bright room, clearly its the right choice.
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post #2970 of 3545 Old 07-27-2017, 09:24 AM
 
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Yes but I have to say that the Z9D did an exceptional job given it is an LCD and for a bright room, clearly its the right choice.
I won't disagree with that statement. I'm lucky that whatever room I use for reference watching will always be light controlled. Not possible for the majority I understand.

Where I think there has been a split in this thread and discussing the results is the shootout, this year and years past, is meant to pit TV's together under ideal circumstances that the most devout of us within these forums will try to utilize. The 1% basically.

And every year we will always say "Well this category should be added or this taken off" etc etc.

The point most of us tried to make before all hell broke loose was between the two Sony's and the LG you can't go wrong and on a level playing field of comparing source to source one of them came out "on top", ever ever so barely. It's just unfortunate that declaring a "winner" causes emotions that rival an Ohio St. vs Michigan football game when we are dealing with something as trivial and materialistic as a TV.

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