2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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2017 TV Shootout Evaluation event will be in NYC, July 12 and July 13, 2017


Per Robert, over at bluray.com:


"We're holding our 2017 TV Shootout TM evaluation event in conjunction with CE Week NY on 7/12 - 13, 2017.

Joel Silver of ISF and Kevin Miller of ISF TV will be running the event this year along with Matt and Jeff Murray of AV Pro Store.

Joel and Kevin made a significant change to the event this year. They are inviting a top professional team of judges as the panel of experts to vote on the attributes of picture quality to determine "Who makes the world's best TV?" So the evaluation event will be judged by professional colorists, contrast graders, and video engineers.

Another change this year is my personal VIP invite list gets full access to the CE Week show floor, the private press room, special access to all private press events before the show opens to the public, the TV Shootout event and all of CE Week's full calendar of special events all at no charge. Value Electronics invited guests will be pre-registered and issued an all access badge.


Members of interested can email me at to be included in our exclusive VIP advance registration."




This is the OFFICIAL list (though Robert says it is subject to change).

Sony 65” A1E OLED TV
Sony 65” Z9D LCD/LED
LG 65” W7 or G7 OLED TV
VIZIO P SERIES 65" LCD
Samsung 65” Q9 LCD/QLED

Last edited by ray0414; 06-09-2017 at 11:11 PM.
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post #2 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice to see the change to have experts this year participate. Last year was the 1st time I believe that an expert vote wasn't tallied seperately.
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post #3 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 09:21 AM
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Good post. And now, the this TV is better than this TV will start in 5, 4, 3, 2....
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Official list that is subject to change has been added to OP. The addition of more tvs (possibly Vizio, etc), will be determined later.

Sony 65” A1E OLED TV
Sony 65” Z9D LCD/LED
LG 65” W7 or G7 OLED TV
LG 65” SJ9500 LCD/Nano LED
Samsung 65” Q9 LCD/QLED
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post #5 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 1 Leasing View Post
how does one get in to this event

I would suggest by bus or by car

But for real, ill find out exactly. I know its a public event but I think you need to register with Robert, ill get details and post back.
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post #6 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 12:10 PM
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.. ''65 inch'' is the keyword here AFAIK. Looks to me like they brought down LCd TV sizes to 65'' because that way they can be better compared with the OLED TVs, and show OLED TVs superiority, i guess. Not going to see a 77'' OLED TV any time soon at a Shootout..might have something to do with price..$20,000 or so...
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post #7 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
.. ''65 inch'' is the keyword here AFAIK. Looks to me like they brought down LCd TV sizes to 65'' because that way they can be better compared with the OLED TVs, and show OLED TVs superiority, i guess. Not going to see a 77'' OLED TV any time soon at a Shootout..might have something to do with price..$20,000 or so...


Last year the sony flagship was the 75"940d, so they wanted at least 1 other large tv to balance it out. Much better being all 65s though.
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Last year the sony flagship was the 75"940d, so they wanted at least 1 other large tv to balance it out.
The ZD9 might be the Flagship line that does not make the 65'' ZD9 the Flagship.
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Much better being all 65s though.
65'' might be big at a UK Shootout, by AVS standards 65'' is not big at all. I was under the impression that 75'' was the standard for now.
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post #9 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
The ZD9 might be the Flagship line that does not make the 65'' ZD9 the Flagship.

65'' might be big at a UK Shootout, by AVS standards 65'' is not big at all. I was under the impression that 75'' was the standard for now.

I think youre getting overly technical here. Its not practical for the largest tvs to be used, the 100" z9d, the 88" qled. Where do want them to have this shootout? a warehouse??!

^^^ which brings me to that You also must factor in space, there isnt room for 5 tvs that are 75". If you watched the previous shootouts, the space seems relatively limited where they put the tvs.

Not sure where "75 is the new standard" came from. You making stuff up?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
65'' might be big at a UK Shootout, by AVS standards 65'' is not big at all. I was under the impression that 75'' was the standard for now.
::feels like bickering::

75" is the standard for what? Entry-level LCD owners?

What are "AVS standards"?

::runs::
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I think youre getting overly technical here. Its not practical for the largest tvs to be used, the 100" z9d, the 88" qled. Where do want them to have this shootout? a warehouse??!
I am not getting technical at all. 2010 or so 65'' would be the Flagship size. 65'' is just not Flagship-ish in 2017. That is just how it is. Does not need to be 100''. Maybe 75'' is which is what i am talking about when i state that 75'' is the ''standard'' size for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray
^^^ which brings me to that You also must factor in space, there isnt room for 5 tvs that are 75". If you watched the previous shootouts, the space seems relatively limited where they put the tvs.
Lets just say that ideally i would like to see 75'' TVs at a 2017 Shootout. Being a bit disappointed that we are going to deal with 65'' models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray
Not sure where "75 is the new standard" came from. You making stuff up?
Main thing here is that folks keep talking about larger sizes, ''immersiveness'' being the keyword. 65'' really is considered to be the bare minimum in that regard. Folks just go for 75'' and possible larger these days. 75'' seems to be something folks can agree upon. And that is the TV people on these Forums talking. Projector people think much bigger.
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post #12 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JJxiv1215 View Post
::feels like bickering::

75" is the standard for what? Entry-level LCD owners?

What are "AVS standards"?

::runs::
Well..reading threads..ands post in TV Forums. Noticing that folks seem to consider below 75'' to be no longer good enough..while dreaming about larger sizes. So for me 75'' looks like ''the'' size for now. Not really hard to understand
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post #13 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 01:17 PM
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hasn't this entire "event" been played out by now? Enough people measure the living hell out of all these displays within a matter of weeks so between that a million other novice and "expert" opinions on these boards...do we need another set of "experts" exclaiming what they feel looks the "best"? Don't answer that.

bizarre...it's like "experts" telling you what kind of wine you're supposed to like.

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post #14 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
hasn't this entire "event" been played out by now? Enough people measure the living hell out of all these displays within a matter of weeks so between that a million other novice and "expert" opinions on these boards...do we need another set of "experts" exclaiming what they feel looks the "best"? Don't answer that.

bizarre...it's like "experts" telling you what kind of wine you're supposed to like.

James


By your logic, every yearly event has been played out and they should just cancel them all affective immediately. Lets cancel the auto shows that showcase new cars. Lets cancel tech shows that showcase new devices. While were at it, lets cancel 4th of july events because we have done it every year for the past 200 years

FYI, as noted in the OP, the event is held in conjunction with another event held at the same time of the year. guess they should cancel that one too lol
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The thing I want most from this shootout is for it to be simplified, streamlined, expert only and most importantly every display to be set up to the best of its ability. If one display looks better set at 100nits and the other at 1000nits, let them be setup different. Also, more real word testing. I don't care if I can see jaggies if I pause on a single frame, if I can not pick it up in real word viewing. Also, just because one display can not do something, doesn't mean it should not be tested. Like not testing DV last year. The ones that have DV should go against HDR. Yes, the difference is entirely source dependent, but that is an advantage of displays that have the ability to do both. Finally, I doubt VE will add displays they do not sell, but I would like to see these other top FALD displays added from the other brands:

TCL 65" P2/ (72 zone/ DolbyVision/ Roku)
Hisense 70/75 H10D (240-300 zone?/QD/HDR)
Sharp 70/75 P9500U (maybe basically the same as Hisense?)
UMAX 85 (448zone/ DolbyVision)

Really though, at the lower price points of the 65" OLEDs, FALDs do not make much sense. Only when you go to bigger sizes does their price/performance ratio come into play. For me personally, I would wait for true QDCF and new HDMI 2.1 standard to be released next year.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
By your logic, every yearly event has been played out and they should just cancel them all affective immediately. Lets cancel the auto shows that showcase new cars. Lets cancel tech shows that showcase new devices. While were at it, lets cancel 4th of july events because we have done it every year for the past 200 years

FYI, as noted in the OP, the event is held in conjunction with another event held at the same time of the year. guess they should cancel that one too lol
oh no...you tried to answer it anyway. - lol -

It's not my logic that's flawed, but yours. Your assertion has absolutely no connection to what I'm maintaining: that there is already MORE than enough subjective and objective data on these displays that an "event" is well, never mind.

and it's "effective immediately" not "affective" - so long as you decided to try to "help" me, I figured I was in your debt.

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move on please

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I am not getting technical at all. 2010 or so 65'' would be the Flagship size. 65'' is just not Flagship-ish in 2017. That is just how it is. Does not need to be 100''. Maybe 75'' is which is what i am talking about when i state that 75'' is the ''standard'' size for now.

Lets just say that ideally i would like to see 75'' TVs at a 2017 Shootout. Being a bit disappointed that we are going to deal with 65'' models.
Main thing here is that folks keep talking about larger sizes, ''immersiveness'' being the keyword. 65'' really is considered to be the bare minimum in that regard. Folks just go for 75'' and possible larger these days. 75'' seems to be something folks can agree upon. And that is the TV people on these Forums talking. Projector people think much bigger.
Size has nothing to do with a TV being a flagship. There are flagship lines. All TVs within that line are considered flagships. There's no difference between a 55" E6 or a 65" E6. Sony made the somewhat weird move of only having their, at the time, flagship TV available in only one size, which upset the apple cart a bit, but it was what it was.

The TVs are being examined right in front of the screen so it isn't necessary that they be the biggest possible. It won't affect testing at all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
The thing I want most from this shootout is for it to be simplified, streamlined, expert only and most importantly every display to be set up to the best of its ability. If one display looks better set at 100nits and the other at 1000nits, let them be setup different. Also, more real word testing. I don't care if I can see jaggies if I pause on a single frame, if I can not pick it up in real word viewing. Also, just because one display can not do something, doesn't mean it should not be tested. Like not testing DV last year. The ones that have DV should go against HDR. Yes, the difference is entirely source dependent, but that is an advantage of displays that have the ability to do both. Finally, I doubt VE will add displays they do not sell, but I would like to see these other top FALD displays added from the other brands:

TCL 65" P2/ (72 zone/ DolbyVision/ Roku)
Hisense 70/75 H10D (240-300 zone?/QD/HDR)
Sharp 70/75 P9500U (maybe basically the same as Hisense?)
UMAX 85 (448zone/ DolbyVision)

Really though, at the lower price points of the 65" OLEDs, FALDs do not make much sense. Only when you go to bigger sizes does their price/performance ratio come into play. For me personally, I would wait for true QDCF and new HDMI 2.1 standard to be released next year.
I think you make some good points for testing criteria. It would be kind of silly to now exclude DV because Samsung doesn't offer it. Also, would it be blaspheme to test upscaling since most of us watch less than optimal sources (UHD Disks) more often than not?
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post #20 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 04:30 PM
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I don't care about sizes so much, more interested in if this shootout will be only for 4k/HDR material (if so what format) Or if SDR/HD or even SD material included.

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^^^^ Myself and I'm sure others would like to see upscaling abilities. They did have SDR material last year and I would assume this year too. But I'd like to see cable processing if possible. And I know this may be a stretch, but the ultimate test of upscaling may be to sample some DVDs. That tv that has the best DVD picture will likely have the best cable TV picture too.
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post #22 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 04:58 PM
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That would be nice to see at least HD content tested. There is only so much 4K HDR content out there that most of us already own or steam. So let's look close at upscaling. And also find some material that we know has color banding and test for that as well.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post
Size has nothing to do with a TV being a flagship. There are flagship lines. All TVs within that line are considered flagships. There's no difference between a 55" E6 or a 65" E6. Sony made the somewhat weird move of only having their, at the time, flagship TV available in only one size, which upset the apple cart a bit, but it was what it was.

The TVs are being examined right in front of the screen so it isn't necessary that they be the biggest possible. It won't affect testing at all.
Start a poll and ask ''which one is better the 65'' OLED TV or the 77'' OLED TV?'' You will see that the 77'' will win with the main argument being ''bigger is better''. That is also the case when it is 55'' vs. 65''. Bigger will make the experience better ...These experts at the Shootout do know this..Most of them do not even watch movies on TVs because they are not big enough.

I understand that the Shootout is mainly about PQ and size does not really matter. Nevertheless you send a signal, the signal is ''65 inch''. To correct this one hopes presenters spend some time explaining why bigger is better, and tell us which sizes are preferable.


The other thing is that the Panasonic and Philips OLED TVs will not participate. The Panasonic 2016 OLED TV was the best TV on the market so one expects a lot from their 2017 offering. Vincent Teoh stated that the Philips 901F is the best UHD OLED TV hdtvtest reviewed so far.
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post #24 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^and it's too bad that philips and panasonic won't bring their sets to the usa.
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^^^^and it's too bad that philips and panasonic won't bring their sets to the usa.
Sounds like a good reason to me to exclude them from the shootout.

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post #26 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Number 1 Leasing View Post
how does one get in to this event
From the release...

Registration and all of the benefits of the exclusive VIP perks can only be done by emailing Roberts personal email, which is found at the value electronics website.

The 2017 TV Shootout will be held in conjunction with CE Week NY. CE Week will be Wednesday, July 12 and Thursday, July 13, 2017 at the

Metropolitan Pavilion, 125 W 18th St., New York, NY
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post #27 of 279 Old 03-01-2017, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuntman_Mike View Post
Size has nothing to do with a TV being a flagship. There are flagship lines. All TVs within that line are considered flagships. There's no difference between a 55" E6 or a 65" E6. Sony made the somewhat weird move of only having their, at the time, flagship TV available in only one size, which upset the apple cart a bit, but it was what it was.

The TVs are being examined right in front of the screen so it isn't necessary that they be the biggest possible. It won't affect testing at all.
First of all, I agree with your thesis but there are a couple of minor caveats

1) For the 2016 LG OLED line up the 55" models based upon anecdotal evidence seem to be less prone to vignetting and near black banding. For 2017 I'm hoping LG has improved quality control on the 65" panels.

2) For LCD displays it's possible that all sizes don't have the same panel specs/source within the same model line-up. This admittedly is no longer a concern for the flagships but it has been in the past.

And in general though a larger size is more immersive they are also more revealing of artifacts so if you don't have one dedicated for well encoded movies you may find the 65" size a good compromise for immersing yourself in movies and dealing with less than pristine feeds such as compressed cable.
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post #28 of 279 Old 03-02-2017, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Start a poll and ask ''which one is better the 65'' OLED TV or the 77'' OLED TV?'' You will see that the 77'' will win with the main argument being ''bigger is better''. That is also the case when it is 55'' vs. 65''. Bigger will make the experience better ...These experts at the Shootout do know this..Most of them do not even watch movies on TVs because they are not big enough.

I understand that the Shootout is mainly about PQ and size does not really matter. Nevertheless you send a signal, the signal is ''65 inch''. To correct this one hopes presenters spend some time explaining why bigger is better, and tell us which sizes are preferable.


The other thing is that the Panasonic and Philips OLED TVs will not participate. The Panasonic 2016 OLED TV was the best TV on the market so one expects a lot from their 2017 offering. Vincent Teoh stated that the Philips 901F is the best UHD OLED TV hdtvtest reviewed so far.
What does a poll of the average consumer have to do with a shootout done by industry professionals, rating displays on specific criteria, to determine a PQ king? The shootout isn't to tell people what is the industry standard for display size, it's to evaluate what TV has the overall best PQ, and to do that, they don't need the biggest size available, in a given line. They just need the a TV, of whatever size, from a given manufacturer's flagship line.

No one is saying that, all things being equal, bigger isn't better. I have a 65" E6P. I'd love a 120" E6P. That has nothing to do with the shootout, though. They have to go with what they can, space permitting. The size won't affect anything because they aren't only looking at the sets from normal seating distances. They will be looking at them right at the screen, so it wouldn't matter if they were 55" either.

Case in point, the holy grail of displays is a Sony reference monitor that doesn't come any bigger than 30 or 40".
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post #29 of 279 Old 03-02-2017, 07:22 AM
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First of all, I agree with your thesis but there are a couple of minor caveats

1) For the 2016 LG OLED line up the 55" models based upon anecdotal evidence seem to be less prone to vignetting and near black banding. For 2017 I'm hoping LG has improved quality control on the 65" panels.

2) For LCD displays it's possible that all sizes don't have the same panel specs/source within the same model line-up. This admittedly is no longer a concern for the flagships but it has been in the past.

And in general though a larger size is more immersive they are also more revealing of artifacts so if you don't have one dedicated for well encoded movies you may find the 65" size a good compromise for immersing yourself in movies and dealing with less than pristine feeds such as compressed cable.
You make good points. However, I'd say that the 55" line being better in certain aspects is, as you said, very anecdotal.

For the flagship LCDs in question, they had the same specs regardless of size. Mainly talking about the Vizios as the 940D only comes in one size. In the case of the Z9, I think there was may have been a difference in zone count depending on the size of the TV, with the zone count increasing as the size increased, but to my knowledge, Sony hasn't confirmed any zone count numbers, and attempts to count zones have been more difficult on the Z9 than other FALDs, so I think that's still a bit up in the air.

As for revealing artifacts, again you are correct, but in the case of a shootout, these sets won't only be viewed from normal seating distances. They will be scrutinized at the screen, so the issues you mentioned would still be visible, even if the TV were 10" smaller.

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post #30 of 279 Old 03-02-2017, 08:09 AM
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Case in point, the holy grail of displays is a Sony reference monitor that doesn't come any bigger than 30 or 40".
..nobody is watching movies on that reference monitor..
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