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post #1 of 532 Old 04-15-2017, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony A1E Calibration Thread

Now that members are receiving Sony's new A1E OLED, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread dealing with the calibration of this set. I'll be getting one in a couple of days and will post what I find. Please use this thread to post any calibration related discoveries, methods, processes or results to fine tune the picture quality of this set.

For those DIY's and pros, it would be interesting to explore things such as determining if Sony's picture processing does any better in near black detail, low ire CMS, and peak luminance as compared to the LG which uses the same panel. Is it better to use Expert 1 or Expert 2 for HDR? How's the best way to manage the SDR and HDR picture mode settings in relation to storing the calibration? How accurate is the CMS? Do we need to raise the 0% black level in the calibration software such as Calman, like we did on the LG to get the set to come out of black faster? What's the best way to calibrate Cinema Home and Pro and HDR10 and some day, Dolby Vision on this set?


Please keep the topic focused on the A1 but comparisons to the LG for a point of reference is also welcome. Maybe if we share our experiences, we can develop the best calibration process for this set and learn something at the same time.

John
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post #2 of 532 Old 04-15-2017, 02:54 PM
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Sony A1E Calibration Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Now that members are receiving Sony's new A1E OLED, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread dealing with the calibration of this set. I'll be getting one in a couple of days and will post what I find. Please use this thread to post any calibration related discoveries, methods, processes or results to fine tune the picture quality of this set.



For those DIY's and pros, it would be interesting to explore things such as determining if Sony's picture processing does any better in near black detail, low ire CMS, and peak luminance as compared to the LG which uses the same panel. Is it better to use Expert 1 or Expert 2 for HDR? How's the best way to manage the SDR and HDR picture mode settings in relation to storing the calibration? How accurate is the CMS? Do we need to raise the 0% black level in the calibration software such as Calman, like we did on the LG to get the set to come out of black faster? What's the best way to calibrate Cinema Home and Pro and HDR10 and some day, Dolby Vision on this set?





Please keep the topic focused on the A1 but comparisons to the LG for a point of reference is also welcome. Maybe if we share our experiences, we can develop the best calibration process for this set and learn something at the same time.


Looking forward to some hard data


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post #3 of 532 Old 04-17-2017, 07:58 AM
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post #4 of 532 Old 04-19-2017, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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In preparation for the calibration discussion, i'm re-posting a great review of the LG vs the Sony to point out the picture processing that Sony is performing so we can discuss how it might effect SDR and HDR calibration. Only the picture processing related parts of the review are below.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Review: Sony XBR65A1E, XBR55A1E (A1E)

The subject of this review is the Sony XBR65A1E. Since the 65-inch and the 55-inch class models have identical features, the following review applies to the XBR55A1E as well. Both of them are members of the A1E series of Sony OLED TVs.

The Sony XBR65A1E and the 2017 LG OLED TVs use the latest generation W-OLED panel. The resolution is 3840×2160, meaning there are more than 8 million individual pixels, with each and every one of them producing it own light. However, instead of having sub-pixels that emit distinct red, green and blue, the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs produce dichromatic white light on a pixel level, which necessitates the use of color filters. The dichromatic light source results in less narrow peaks in the green, and especially the red spectral regions in comparison to the blue. Although this doesn’t prevent them from covering the DCI-P3 color space coverage almost entirely, it means that some improvements need to be made to the W-OLED technology in order for any future TVs using these type of panels to be able to fully cover the BT.2020 color space, which is significantly larger than DCI-P3.

Since OLED a self-emissive technology, individual pixels can be completely shut off so that no light is emitted. As a result, both the Sony XBR65A1E and its LG OLED counterparts have a perfect black level of 0 nits, provided there is no ambient light that gets reflected off the screen. At the opposite end of the brightness scale, they can reach approximately 150 nits on a full-field white (100% window size). Therefore, if you calibrate the Sony XBR65A1E or the LG OLED65E7P to the level SDR content is usually mastered to (i.e. 100 nits), the target luminance is achieved not only in small areas of the screen but also during scenes with high average picture level. A typical example of content with preponderance of bright elements is hockey.

Nonetheless, the Auto Brightness Limiter is still present, and starts to function at above 150 nits. It basically means that the larger the brightly illuminated portion of the screen is, the dimmer it gets. However, most SDR content has low-to-mid APL, so it is unlikely to notice any drop in luminance unless the scene is overly bright and you’ve calibrated your TV to more than 150 nits. Furthermore, the Sony XBR65A1E and the LG OLED65E7P can reach more than 300 nits in 50% window size, and more than 400 nits in 25% window size, meaning they can get sufficiently bright for viewing under high ambient light conditions, provided the SDR content doesn’t have high average picture level.

The peak brightness with High Dynamic range (HDR) content varies based on the HDR picture preset you’re using. Some of the HDR picture modes (e.g. Vivid) on the Sony XBR65A1E and LG track the D93 white point more closely, while others (e.g. Standard): the D65 white point. Although tracking the D93 white point provides a peak brightness of up to 1,000 nits in small specular highlights (5% window size), there is some significant blue tint added to the white color. On the other hand, the D65 white point ensures more neutral color temperature, but the peak brightness in small specular highlights (5% window size) is only up to 800 nits.

One of the HDR formats that the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs support is HDR10. The transfer function used with the HDR10 is called Perceptual Quantizer (PQ). The digital code words in the 10-bit HDR10 signal correspond to specific luminance values, regardless of the actual brightness capability of the TV. In other words the PQ is an absolute transfer function. When the HDR10 content is mastered to a brightness level unattainable by the Sony XBR65A1E and LG, they resort to tone-mapping in order to quantize the dynamic range of the content. The tone-mapping process is not standardized, though. This means that there is a difference in how the Sony XBR65A1E and LG implement the PQ EOTF (Electro-Optical Transfer Function), especially at higher stimulus levels.

HDR10 content mastered to 4,000 nits requires the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs to perform more tone-mapping than 1,000 nit HDR10 content, so this is where the difference between them is most prominent. Specifically, the LG OLED65E7P tends to start rolling-off the luminance a bit earlier than the Sony XBR65A1E, which allows for more detail in the highlights to be resolved, but also causes some tones in the diffuse white region to be rendered slightly darker in comparison to the Sony XBR65A1E.

It also needs to be said that HDR10 content is only optimized for scenes with highlights due to the fact that static metadata defines maxCLL (maximum content light level) which doesn’t change for the entire duration of the content. In an attempt to rectify this, the 2017 LG OLED TVs utilize Active HDR processing for analyzing individual frames, and generating dynamic metadata on the fly. The Sony XBR65A1E’s Dynamic Contrast Enhancer also performs frame-by-frame optimization. The setting which controls the Active HDR processing on the LG is called Dynamic Contrast, and it can be set to Low, Medium, High or Off, so you can find the right balance between preventing the dynamic range from being unnecessary compressed during scenes without highlights, on the one hand, and avoiding any further alternation of the director’s intended look (besides the one already introduced by the tone-mapping), on the other.

There is no such dilemma with Dolby Vision content because the dynamic metadata is generated during post-production, so it conforms director’s intentions. Another advantage over the HDR10 is that the Dolby’s mapping engine is aware of the specific characteristics (such as peak brightness, color volume, etc) of the display, meaning it can provide better tone-mapping. The LG OLED TVs support Dolby Vision out of the box whereas the Sony XBR65A1E requires a future firmware update to enable support for this format. According to Sony, the update will be available later this year. It will also bring support for HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma), which is a different format of HDR aimed primarily at TV broadcasts, to the Sony XBR65A1E. The 2017 LG OLED TVs support HLG out of the box.

Considering that color bit depth and DCI-P3 gamut coverage are tied to the panel of the TV, rather than video processing, it’s not surprising that color rendition is mostly identical on the Sony XBR65A1E and LG. The panel bit depth is 10-bit, meaning both of them are able to show more than a billion color shades. The DCI-P3 color space coverage is approximately 99% for the mid-tones, and slightly lower for specular highlights that are above 1,000 nits. Therefore, the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs do not render some of the brightest colors in specular highlight as vivid as they should be. Unlike the Sony XBR65A1E, the LG OLED TVs have a Color Management System, so you can adjust saturation, tint and luminance independently for the primary colors. Although this may improve the color accuracy, it doesn’t lead to an expansion in the DCI-P3 coverage.

Neither of them has any significant trouble with the transition from black to dark gray, which was somewhat problematic with earlier OLED TVs. The smooth near-black gradation is a result from both improvements in the panel itself, as well as the fact the processing is done at a higher bit depth, so that quantazation errors can be avoided. Specifically, the Sony XBR65A1E features Super Bit Mapping, which upconverts 8-bit or 10-bit source content for 14-bit processing. The Smooth Gradation menu setting controls it. The LG OLED TVs also resorts to processing content at a higher bit depth in order to prevent macroblocking artifacts near-black. The black level setting is non-linear in order to provide more granular control over the transition from black to dark gray.

One of the areas where the more advanced video processing on Sony XBR65A1E vs LG becomes apparent is upscaling lower resolution content to 4K resolution. This is attributed to the fact that the X1 Extreme image processor on the Sony XBR65A1E can access tens of thousands picture patterns in two databases. One of the Sony’s propriety databases is dedicated to noise reduction while the other is for super resolution (i.e. enhancing the clarity of upscaled content). The before and after data references allow the Sony XBR65A1E to identify compression noise and other artifacts in the source, and remove them in an optimal way. Whilst not quite on par with the Sony XBR65A1E, the LG upscaling is also good. Furthermore, if you’re watching native 4K content, or even some pristine quality 1080p content, such as Blu-ray discs, the difference between the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED65E7P is minimal.

The enhanced video processing on the Sony XBR65A1E also leads to less visible artifacts when the motion compensated frame interpolation is engaged. Although this model is not impulse driven (like plasma TVs were), the nearly instantaneous pixel response time and the 120Hz native refresh rate, which LG OLED TVs also have, prevent fast moving objects from having dark trails. Since individual frames remain on the screen until the next refresh – a method known as sample-and-hold, and used by both the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs, some blurring is still possible, depending on the specific content. The reason is that your eyes are moving as they track an object traveling across the screen whereas the frame doesn’t change until the next refresh, which happens every 8.3 ms for 120Hz TVs.

The Object-based HDR remaster is applied across most of the Sony XBR65A1E SDR picture presets in order for color and contrast of non-HDR content, such as Blu-ray discs, DVDs, and TV broadcasts to be enhanced. On the other hand, LG OLED TVs have a dedicated picture preset called HDR Effect. The advantage to the Sony XBR65A1E’s method of individually analyzing and remastering objects is that the average picture level doesn’t need to lowered significantly in order to provide headroom for highlights, which LG OLED TVs are somewhat prone to when HDR Effect is used.

The Sony XBR65A1E uses Android TV (version 6.0) whereas 2017 LG OLED TVs rely on the WebOS 3.5 system for their smart TV capabilities. The Sony XBR65A1E allows you to access compatible apps on Google Play. There is a built-in microphone in the remote and a future firmware update will enable Google Assistant on the Sony XBR65A1E. The LG motion-sensing Magic Remote also has a built-in microphone, and the webOS platform is very intuitive to use.


https://tvevaluate.com/review-sony-xbr65a1e-oled/

John
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post #5 of 532 Old 04-19-2017, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
In preparation for the calibration discussion, i'm re-posting a great review of the LG vs the Sony to point out the picture processing that Sony is performing so we can discuss how it might effect SDR and HDR calibration. Only the picture processing related parts of the review are below.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Review: Sony XBR65A1E, XBR55A1E (A1E)



The subject of this review is the Sony XBR65A1E. Since the 65-inch and the 55-inch class models have identical features, the following review applies to the XBR55A1E as well. Both of them are members of the A1E series of Sony OLED TVs.



The Sony XBR65A1E and the 2017 LG OLED TVs use the latest generation W-OLED panel. The resolution is 3840×2160, meaning there are more than 8 million individual pixels, with each and every one of them producing it own light. However, instead of having sub-pixels that emit distinct red, green and blue, the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs produce dichromatic white light on a pixel level, which necessitates the use of color filters. The dichromatic light source results in less narrow peaks in the green, and especially the red spectral regions in comparison to the blue. Although this doesn’t prevent them from covering the DCI-P3 color space coverage almost entirely, it means that some improvements need to be made to the W-OLED technology in order for any future TVs using these type of panels to be able to fully cover the BT.2020 color space, which is significantly larger than DCI-P3.



Since OLED a self-emissive technology, individual pixels can be completely shut off so that no light is emitted. As a result, both the Sony XBR65A1E and its LG OLED counterparts have a perfect black level of 0 nits, provided there is no ambient light that gets reflected off the screen. At the opposite end of the brightness scale, they can reach approximately 150 nits on a full-field white (100% window size). Therefore, if you calibrate the Sony XBR65A1E or the LG OLED65E7P to the level SDR content is usually mastered to (i.e. 100 nits), the target luminance is achieved not only in small areas of the screen but also during scenes with high average picture level. A typical example of content with preponderance of bright elements is hockey.



Nonetheless, the Auto Brightness Limiter is still present, and starts to function at above 150 nits. It basically means that the larger the brightly illuminated portion of the screen is, the dimmer it gets. However, most SDR content has low-to-mid APL, so it is unlikely to notice any drop in luminance unless the scene is overly bright and you’ve calibrated your TV to more than 150 nits. Furthermore, the Sony XBR65A1E and the LG OLED65E7P can reach more than 300 nits in 50% window size, and more than 400 nits in 25% window size, meaning they can get sufficiently bright for viewing under high ambient light conditions, provided the SDR content doesn’t have high average picture level.



The peak brightness with High Dynamic range (HDR) content varies based on the HDR picture preset you’re using. Some of the HDR picture modes (e.g. Vivid) on the Sony XBR65A1E and LG track the D93 white point more closely, while others (e.g. Standard): the D65 white point. Although tracking the D93 white point provides a peak brightness of up to 1,000 nits in small specular highlights (5% window size), there is some significant blue tint added to the white color. On the other hand, the D65 white point ensures more neutral color temperature, but the peak brightness in small specular highlights (5% window size) is only up to 800 nits.



One of the HDR formats that the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs support is HDR10. The transfer function used with the HDR10 is called Perceptual Quantizer (PQ). The digital code words in the 10-bit HDR10 signal correspond to specific luminance values, regardless of the actual brightness capability of the TV. In other words the PQ is an absolute transfer function. When the HDR10 content is mastered to a brightness level unattainable by the Sony XBR65A1E and LG, they resort to tone-mapping in order to quantize the dynamic range of the content. The tone-mapping process is not standardized, though. This means that there is a difference in how the Sony XBR65A1E and LG implement the PQ EOTF (Electro-Optical Transfer Function), especially at higher stimulus levels.



HDR10 content mastered to 4,000 nits requires the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs to perform more tone-mapping than 1,000 nit HDR10 content, so this is where the difference between them is most prominent. Specifically, the LG OLED65E7P tends to start rolling-off the luminance a bit earlier than the Sony XBR65A1E, which allows for more detail in the highlights to be resolved, but also causes some tones in the diffuse white region to be rendered slightly darker in comparison to the Sony XBR65A1E.



It also needs to be said that HDR10 content is only optimized for scenes with highlights due to the fact that static metadata defines maxCLL (maximum content light level) which doesn’t change for the entire duration of the content. In an attempt to rectify this, the 2017 LG OLED TVs utilize Active HDR processing for analyzing individual frames, and generating dynamic metadata on the fly. The Sony XBR65A1E’s Dynamic Contrast Enhancer also performs frame-by-frame optimization. The setting which controls the Active HDR processing on the LG is called Dynamic Contrast, and it can be set to Low, Medium, High or Off, so you can find the right balance between preventing the dynamic range from being unnecessary compressed during scenes without highlights, on the one hand, and avoiding any further alternation of the director’s intended look (besides the one already introduced by the tone-mapping), on the other.



There is no such dilemma with Dolby Vision content because the dynamic metadata is generated during post-production, so it conforms director’s intentions. Another advantage over the HDR10 is that the Dolby’s mapping engine is aware of the specific characteristics (such as peak brightness, color volume, etc) of the display, meaning it can provide better tone-mapping. The LG OLED TVs support Dolby Vision out of the box whereas the Sony XBR65A1E requires a future firmware update to enable support for this format. According to Sony, the update will be available later this year. It will also bring support for HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma), which is a different format of HDR aimed primarily at TV broadcasts, to the Sony XBR65A1E. The 2017 LG OLED TVs support HLG out of the box.



Considering that color bit depth and DCI-P3 gamut coverage are tied to the panel of the TV, rather than video processing, it’s not surprising that color rendition is mostly identical on the Sony XBR65A1E and LG. The panel bit depth is 10-bit, meaning both of them are able to show more than a billion color shades. The DCI-P3 color space coverage is approximately 99% for the mid-tones, and slightly lower for specular highlights that are above 1,000 nits. Therefore, the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs do not render some of the brightest colors in specular highlight as vivid as they should be. Unlike the Sony XBR65A1E, the LG OLED TVs have a Color Management System, so you can adjust saturation, tint and luminance independently for the primary colors. Although this may improve the color accuracy, it doesn’t lead to an expansion in the DCI-P3 coverage.



Neither of them has any significant trouble with the transition from black to dark gray, which was somewhat problematic with earlier OLED TVs. The smooth near-black gradation is a result from both improvements in the panel itself, as well as the fact the processing is done at a higher bit depth, so that quantazation errors can be avoided. Specifically, the Sony XBR65A1E features Super Bit Mapping, which upconverts 8-bit or 10-bit source content for 14-bit processing. The Smooth Gradation menu setting controls it. The LG OLED TVs also resorts to processing content at a higher bit depth in order to prevent macroblocking artifacts near-black. The black level setting is non-linear in order to provide more granular control over the transition from black to dark gray.



One of the areas where the more advanced video processing on Sony XBR65A1E vs LG becomes apparent is upscaling lower resolution content to 4K resolution. This is attributed to the fact that the X1 Extreme image processor on the Sony XBR65A1E can access tens of thousands picture patterns in two databases. One of the Sony’s propriety databases is dedicated to noise reduction while the other is for super resolution (i.e. enhancing the clarity of upscaled content). The before and after data references allow the Sony XBR65A1E to identify compression noise and other artifacts in the source, and remove them in an optimal way. Whilst not quite on par with the Sony XBR65A1E, the LG upscaling is also good. Furthermore, if you’re watching native 4K content, or even some pristine quality 1080p content, such as Blu-ray discs, the difference between the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED65E7P is minimal.



The enhanced video processing on the Sony XBR65A1E also leads to less visible artifacts when the motion compensated frame interpolation is engaged. Although this model is not impulse driven (like plasma TVs were), the nearly instantaneous pixel response time and the 120Hz native refresh rate, which LG OLED TVs also have, prevent fast moving objects from having dark trails. Since individual frames remain on the screen until the next refresh – a method known as sample-and-hold, and used by both the Sony XBR65A1E and LG OLED TVs, some blurring is still possible, depending on the specific content. The reason is that your eyes are moving as they track an object traveling across the screen whereas the frame doesn’t change until the next refresh, which happens every 8.3 ms for 120Hz TVs.



The Object-based HDR remaster is applied across most of the Sony XBR65A1E SDR picture presets in order for color and contrast of non-HDR content, such as Blu-ray discs, DVDs, and TV broadcasts to be enhanced. On the other hand, LG OLED TVs have a dedicated picture preset called HDR Effect. The advantage to the Sony XBR65A1E’s method of individually analyzing and remastering objects is that the average picture level doesn’t need to lowered significantly in order to provide headroom for highlights, which LG OLED TVs are somewhat prone to when HDR Effect is used.



The Sony XBR65A1E uses Android TV (version 6.0) whereas 2017 LG OLED TVs rely on the WebOS 3.5 system for their smart TV capabilities. The Sony XBR65A1E allows you to access compatible apps on Google Play. There is a built-in microphone in the remote and a future firmware update will enable Google Assistant on the Sony XBR65A1E. The LG motion-sensing Magic Remote also has a built-in microphone, and the webOS platform is very intuitive to use.





https://tvevaluate.com/review-sony-xbr65a1e-oled/

That is one of the better reviews I have read thanks for posting, really looking forward to your comparison .



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Would be great if calibrations also listed their equipment and any optimizations to software if applicable.
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post #7 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 12:58 AM
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Maybe we can post some basic settings as a good startpoint for each user.

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post #8 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 06:51 AM
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Attached you can find the settings from the FlatpnalesHD.com Review. This should work as a prefect starting point for calibration.



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post #9 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to try and do an initial calibration on my A1 tomorrow but here are some initial questions/thoughts;

1) You have to set XDR to low/medium/high to get the set in the target luminance range that you want so we need to calibrate with XDR set?

2) Also, it looks like we need to calibrate with the motions settings off?

3) Since this set seems to be behaving like the LG OLED, I think we should try and adjust the 2pt low at 5% if needed and see if it effects the brightness like this setting does on the LG. Also i'm wondering if setting the 0% black in Calman to something like 0.0005 or 0.0034 nits vs 0 is needed on the 2017s since near black isn't an issue.

4) Any thoughts on using expert1 or expert2 or custom to calibrate HDR?

5) I noticed that you can set the Gamma in Cimena Home and Pro in HDR mode. What's that since HDR uses the EOTF curve?
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post #10 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm going to try and do an initial calibration on my A1 tomorrow but here are some initial questions/thoughts;

1) You have to set XDR to low/medium/high to get the set in the target luminance range that you want so we need to calibrate with XDR set?

2) Also, it looks like we need to calibrate with the motions settings off?

3) Since this set seems to be behaving like the LG OLED, I think we should try and adjust the 2pt low at 5% if needed and see if it effects the brightness like this setting does on the LG. Also i'm wondering if setting the 0% black in Calman to something like 0.0005 or 0.0034 nits vs 0 is needed on the 2017s since near black isn't an issue.

4) Any thoughts on using expert1 or expert2 or custom to calibrate HDR?

5) I noticed that you can set the Gamma in Cimena Home and Pro in HDR mode. What's that since HDR uses the EOTF curve?
This set is a lot like the two year + old LG OLED set I replaced. Except for the addition of HDR and a few other features, I see very little difference after the first day.

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post #11 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
3) Since this set seems to be behaving like the LG OLED, I think we should try and adjust the 2pt low at 5% if needed and see if it effects the brightness like this setting does on the LG. Also i'm wondering if setting the 0% black in Calman to something like 0.0005 or 0.0034 nits vs 0 is needed on the 2017s since near black isn't an issue.

5) I noticed that you can set the Gamma in Cimena Home and Pro in HDR mode. What's that since HDR uses the EOTF curve?
you probably already saw but flatpanelshd claimed that any use of 2pt low caused elevated black levels.

Regarding the gamma function in HDR, the z9 is the same way. Changing the setting seems to have an equivalent impact to a 0.1 change in gamma but like you say, 0 should be correct no?

The only use for gamma setting I could think of is to correct brightness of mid tones (to a degree) if you need to significantly adjust contrast to avoid clipping with hdr signal. That is assuming that the 10pt controls on a1 are broken like the z9 ( Sony XBR-65Z9D / XBR-75Z9D Calibration & Fine Tuning Thread OWNERS only ). If the 10pt controls aren't introducing artifacts like in that link then the gamma setting is a curious indclusion
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post #12 of 532 Old 04-21-2017, 11:19 AM
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This set is a lot like the two year + old LG OLED set I replaced. Except for the addition of HDR and a few other features, I see very little difference after the first day.
Very helpful statement in a specific Calibration thread.

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Very helpful statement in a specific Calibration thread.

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I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but I found my experiences in calibrating the LG OLED helpful with the Sony A1E. I thought maybe understanding the close similarity to the LG sets might be useful to others. If not, my apologies for saying so.

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Did you make real measurements or is this your post an assumption?

No matter what, sorry for my unfriendly post.

Cheers and happy calibrating.

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So I tried the calibration settings from the Flatpanels review on my 55".

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1492757435

Their calibration settings produce a much more natural image on the screen for SDR (HD) broadcast sources and for SDR (HD) streaming over the Apple TV 4.

Whereas on the "Standard" default setting the reds and greens are pronounced (the picture pops more) and there is a little bit of judder in motion, with the Flatpanels calibration settings motion becomes smooth as silk and the reds and greens are smoothed out.

The only change I made from their calibrated setting was to set Extended Dynamic Range to High as I have quite a lot of ambient light during the day and this pumps up the brightness. At night you can keep it to Medium as per their setting.

I would say the difference is pretty stark. At first, I thought the TV lost its pop with the calibrated settings but then you realize the picture is much closer to what was intended.

The naming conventions on the TV settings are slightly different with their Euro model set then with the NA set but it's minor.

I hope they provide more settings for 4k broadcast, HDR UHD streaming and gaming otherwise I'm thinking of getting the set professionally calibrated.

P.S. I thought I would crosspost this from the A1E owners thread.
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you probably already saw but flatpanelshd claimed that any use of 2pt low caused elevated black levels.

Regarding the gamma function in HDR, the z9 is the same way. Changing the setting seems to have an equivalent impact to a 0.1 change in gamma but like you say, 0 should be correct no?
I recall reading that the article said that "not touching" the RGB "bias" will insure the (inky blacks we have come to know from OLEDs).
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I recall reading that the article said that "not touching" the RGB "bias" will insure the (inky blacks we have come to know from OLEDs).
I think we're saying the same thing. Bias = 2pt low, and what I understood from the article was that its best left untouched because changing any of the bias/2pt controls results in elevated blacks.

In any case, I'm sure @jrref will see either way what the case is and report back to us
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I recall reading that the article said that "not touching" the RGB "bias" will insure the (inky blacks we have come to know from OLEDs).

For the record, I made minor adjustments to the bias levels and it did not harm the black levels at all. Or if so, it didn't in the sense that it spoiled true black because it was still very much present on what I viewed in a pitch black room.


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So I tried the calibration settings from the Flatpanels review on my 55".

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1492757435

Their calibration settings produce a much more natural image on the screen for SDR (HD) broadcast sources and for SDR (HD) streaming over the Apple TV 4.

Whereas on the "Standard" default setting the reds and greens are pronounced (the picture pops more) and there is a little bit of judder in motion, with the Flatpanels calibration settings motion becomes smooth as silk and the reds and greens are smoothed out.

The only change I made from their calibrated setting was to set Extended Dynamic Range to High as I have quite a lot of ambient light during the day and this pumps up the brightness. At night you can keep it to Medium as per their setting.

I would say the difference is pretty stark. At first, I thought the TV lost its pop with the calibrated settings but then you realize the picture is much closer to what was intended.

The naming conventions on the TV settings are slightly different with their Euro model set then with the NA set but it's minor.

I hope they provide more settings for 4k broadcast, HDR UHD streaming and gaming otherwise I'm thinking of getting the set professionally calibrated.

P.S. I thought I would crosspost this from the A1E owners thread.
Thanks for the live usage report. Helps to know for those of us who aren't always watching in the dark. I don't care for the Soap Opera effect but am willing to turn enhanced motion settings to low if it only does the least amount of smoothing without overkill. Do you find that to be the case here?
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Thanks for the live usage report. Helps to know for those of us who aren't always watching in the dark. I don't care for the Soap Opera effect but am willing to turn enhanced motion settings to low if it only does the least amount of smoothing without overkill. Do you find that to be the case here?
Honestly, I can't stand the soap opera effect either. On my 7 year old Sony XBR I had to turn the processing off completely to avoid it. On this TV I followed the Flatpannels review calibrated settings under the Motion section and there is no Soap opera effect even with some motion processing on. There are two settings that you need to aware of. One is Motionflow and the other is Cinemotion. I keep Cinemotion between Low and Off. On high the soap opera effect will rear it's head. For the Motionflow setting I keep it set to Custom with the smoothness subsetting on 3. I think Sony's processing chip is really something else.
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Cinemotion should stay on low. On low all it is doing is enabling detection and handling of 24fps content in 60hz signal. On all other signals "low" does nothing.
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Another dilemma:

So for SDR i'm finding that leaving Advanced Contrast Enhancement to Off gives perfect black levels and near black detail and a brighter picture vs setting it to Medium which in my opinion, slightly crushes black with some content.

For HDR I'm finding setting ACE to Medium produces brighter highlights and should be turned on. I know for comparison, that Sony's ACE is equivalent to LGs Dynamic contrast. I read somewhere that for 2017, in order to reach the maximum peak HDR luminance that you needed to leave LGs Dynamic Contrast set to it's default so i'm thinking its the same for the Sony. Reason being, I believe, is that for HDR, the set can't reach peak luminance for large areas of the screen as we know, so by turning on ACE on the Sony or dynamic contrast on the LG, it dim's part of the picture that doesn't need the intense brightness and uses the reserve for the highlights.

This should be similar on the Z9D and the 940 series of Sony sets.

Does anyone have an opinion or experimented with this?
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post #23 of 532 Old 04-22-2017, 01:05 AM
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This should be similar on the Z9D and the 940 series of Sony sets.

Does anyone have an opinion or experimented with this?
i did a ton of testing of ACE on my z9. Overall I think ace on low is a net positive in both hdr and sdr, although it does crush shadow detail in certain cases. ACE on high gives the picture far too much of a "processed" look for my preference.

Unfortunately the real content impact of ACE doesn't seem to be reflected in test patterns so you need to get a bit creative and find some real content scenes to discern what it's doing.

I saw you have planet earth 2. The cities episode is a great test for ACE, especially the night vision shots where there is a lot of dark shadow detail, and also a lot of camera bloom.

Here's what I found with PE2
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Have you noticed any change switching local dimming to HIGH?
Did a quick test before heading off to work.

It turns out a lot of the bloom is actually in the source material/resulting from the night cameras. Local dimming on high does nothing but adv contrast enhancer on low significantly reduces black levels and visible bloom (intended or not).

Here's some time stamps from planet earth ii cities episode uhd bluray:

13:42 - windows on building on right. Ace low all but eliminates the bloom around the window frame. Turning brightness up to check reveals lots of bloom in source material.

13:46 window on right under tree, same deal as above.

32:18 start of ch4. This is great test. The hyena eyes are bright in the night, there's tons of really dark shadow detail as well. Turning ace on low all but eliminates bloom around the eyes. A small amount of shadow detail is lost, but not as bad as the Star Trek beyond comparison I posted earlier. The set of eyes on right is most interesting. There's a pretty big halo in the source material, and this scene also has elevated black levels, owing to the use of night vision.

So I take back what I said earlier, most of the bloom is in the source material.

Im starting to lean towards thinking that ACE on low is good for most if not all situations. Pros seem to outweigh the cons.
Star Trek beyond is another good one to see the impact of ACE. Here's my findings with time stamps and pictures in that film.

Quote:
I "knew" that stuff like black adjust and advanced contrast enhancer HAD to have downsides...... so I went and found them

Here's an imgur gallery with some pictures I took of Star Trek Beyond UHD, played from my oppo203
http://imgur.com/a/knuI7

The first image is the extended info, showing the movie was mastered at 1000nit peak, and 0.005nit black level. Interesting. For some reason planet earth ii actually does not have this mastering data reported. I'll also just add that in terms of HDR WOW factor, planet earth ii is on another level from Star Trek Beyond. The improvement over the HD Bluray in Star Trek is noticeable, but planet earth ii had my jaw on the floor the entire time in its HDR presentation...

The set of images in the gallery above is from a little bit into chapter 5, 44:20 through 44:30. The first set is at 44:25 and the second set is a few seconds later.
Exposure and focus were locked for all but the last image, and I purposely overexposed the images to try and illustrate the differences. Pics taken w/ my iPhone 7.

1st image - Black adjust Off, ACE Off - lets consider this, "As intended"

2nd image (exposure/focus lock from 1st) - Black adjust High, ACE Off - the difference may not have come through in the pictures, but setting black adjust to high sharpened the transitions to black a little bit, but didn't really lower black levels overall. Light transitions on Simon Pegg's red outfit are a little sharper. Interesting.

3rd image (ae/af lock from first) - Black Adjust OFF, ACE High - here overall black levels of the shadows are reduced, the shadows in the upper right quadrant are much darker and detail in the doorframe above the ramp is harder to see.

4th image - black adj low, ace low - looks pretty good. Similar reduction in black levels from ACE high. Overall detail seems to remain intact. Pleasing picture.

5th image - black adj off, ace off - this is from a few seconds later when the woman leaves the room and walks up the ramp and through the hallway. Its a dark scene overall. With black adj and ace off this scene has a nice look to it as even though its really dark, you can see enough details that you get an immersive 3d feel of walking through the hallway with her.

6th image - black adj low, ace low - this is where the problems start. Much of the detail of the doorframe and hallways is lost (ace is doing this, black adj does almost nothing in this frame), some of the womans outfit is darker and harder to make out, but importantly in motion you lose the immersive effect as she goes through the hallway it looks like she is just walking away into darkness. Overall black levels are much darker, and the surrounding details in the scene are just a hair brighter than the black bars on top and bottom.

7th image - same as above but I let my iPhone do auto focus and auto exposure on this image to see if it might capture the overall lower light level coming from the TV better. It does seem to, and the picture shows a more representative level of shadow detail etc which is actually being reproduced.


So overall ACE and Black Adj seem like an interesting and/or good idea based on Sjchmura comments about Horizon Zero Dawn and other titles, my pics of Skyfall, and just overall impressions. But unfortunately its not a free lunch and I do hate to lose shadow detail since the z9 does such an excellent job of it.

One last comment, this movie has a ton of film grain in it. Setting smooth gradation to low does a good job of making it so that you never see banding. Setting to high smooths out and smear a lot of the film grain so if you hate grainy movies maybe try a higher smooth gradation setting and see if you like it.
I'd be interested to hear if the A1 has similar behavior, though I expect all x1 extreme powered Sony TV should act similarly with these options....

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i did a ton of testing of ACE on my z9. Overall I think ace on low is a net positive in both hdr and sdr, although it does crush shadow detail in certain cases. ACE on high gives the picture far too much of a "processed" look for my preference.

Unfortunately the real content impact of ACE doesn't seem to be reflected in test patterns so you need to get a bit creative and find some real content scenes to discern what it's doing.

I saw you have planet earth 2. The cities episode is a great test for ACE, especially the night vision shots where there is a lot of dark shadow detail, and also a lot of camera bloom.

Here's what I found with PE2


Star Trek beyond is another good one to see the impact of ACE. Here's my findings with time stamps and pictures in that film.



I'd be interested to hear if the A1 has similar behavior, though I expect all x1 extreme powered Sony TV should act similarly with these options....


So from what I can read of your experience, it works the same way in the A1. You did mention one important thing. Does ACE make the picture look different from what it was intended in SDR? I'm thinking yes. But with HDR, if you play life of Pi, the scene where the whale is attacking him in the boat at night, if you pause the scene and turn on the ACE to medium, you will see the blue lighted water get noticeably brighter.

My thought is to always get the best picture with the least amount of processing and ACE with SDR seems to "mess" with the near black too much which is a sore point for these OLEDS.
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post #25 of 532 Old 04-22-2017, 08:38 AM
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Yeah ACE is an interesting one for sure. It does seem to have some real world merit, unlike say, Black Adjust which just ruins the picture.

Regarding the diminished HDR brightness in the Cinema modes vs Standard mode, were you able to or have you attempted to get a d65 white point in Standard mode while also preserving the brightness advantage it has over the Cinema modes?
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Yeah ACE is an interesting one for sure. It does seem to have some real world merit, unlike say, Black Adjust which just ruins the picture.

Regarding the diminished HDR brightness in the Cinema modes vs Standard mode, were you able to or have you attempted to get a d65 white point in Standard mode while also preserving the brightness advantage it has over the Cinema modes?
I'm not 100% sure but I believe that once you set the white point to D65, then they can all be set the same. I don't think there is any special processing goin on.
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post #27 of 532 Old 04-22-2017, 10:04 AM
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I'm not 100% sure but I believe that once you set the white point to D65, then they can all be set the same. I don't think there is any special processing goin on.
Interesting, in that case it sounds like unless there is severe input signal clipping Standard mode is the way to go w/ the A1 given the free extra ~100nits brightness.

Thanks again for your answers, very helpful
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Interesting, in that case it sounds like unless there is severe input signal clipping Standard mode is the way to go w/ the A1 given the free extra ~100nits brightness.

Thanks again for your answers, very helpful
I will check that and get back to you. I would be incredibly surprised.
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post #29 of 532 Old 04-22-2017, 10:30 AM
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I will check that and get back to you. I would be incredibly surprised.
Cool, at least on the z9 it does seem that the tone mapping algorithms are different between modes. Here's the out of box response of Standard, Cinema Home, and Cinema Pro on z9 in the spoiler below

For what its worth, Cinema Home and Pro can be made equivalent with different contrast settings. I didnt check Standard in this regard.

Readings taken using R Masicor UHD HDR patterns
Spoiler!
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Can someone with a meter verify the ABL behavior of this set? Is there any combination of XDR, Brightness, and Contrast settings which completely disables the ABL similar to what is offered below 150nits on the 2017 LG?

One of the A1 reviews claims that ABL is disabled if you run with XDR=Low which clamps the maximum brightness to ~140 nits.

A quick table of increasing size white windows up to 100% screen area would be helpful. Thanks.
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