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post #1 of 239 Old 07-05-2017, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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2018 LG OLED TV rumors...

Thanks to ALMA for posting this article in the OLED Technology thread: http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readm...msgid=31171602

It seems inportant enough to the incremental inprovements LG could launch in its 2018 lineup of OLED TVs that I thought I would start a dedicated thread on the subject of what PQ inprovements we hope/suspect LG may have in store for us in 2018.

Incremental improvements to peak brightness, reduced ABL (higher threshold before ABL kicks in), and possibly also wideer color gamut, are all potentially possible with a move to Blue-TADF-based WOLED.

Changes to / worsening of Near-black uniformity as well as any impact on lifetime are the two risk factors / unknowns that won't be understood until the new generation of panels are available in the wild.

But it's looking increasingly likely that 2018 will shape up to be the 'tick' year OLED TV fans have been hoping for...
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post #2 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 08:17 AM
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I like the sound of that..
Does LG release their new OLED models the same time every year?
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post #3 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 02:48 PM
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ditch woled, move to rgb oled, woled limits color volume.
abl issue has been improved in the 2017 models compared to previous years. any more improvement would be a good thing.
an 'incremental' improvement to peak brightness is kind of a vague term. currently the lg's do about 700-800 nits, incremental could mean they bump it to 900? i'd like to see a 1500 nits oled, this is an area where the oleds have a lot of catching to do with lcd.

I think 2019 or '20 could be the year where we see a drastic improvement in oleds. 2018 might be just more small leaps like 2016->2017.
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post #4 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 03:12 PM
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I thought LG was on a "tock" cycle in 2017 and that 2018 would be a net new generation of panel? That along with not having to support 3D should give a lot more brightness?
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post #5 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
an 'incremental' improvement to peak brightness is kind of a vague term. currently the lg's do about 700-800 nits, incremental could mean they bump it to 900? i'd like to see a 1500 nits oled, this is an area where the oleds have a lot of catching to do with lcd.
How many titles are there that are mastered above 1000 nits? With any and all tiles regardless of mastering luminance, how many times does 800+ nit content appear on screen. If you can answer that, how long is said content on screen? Once you get those figures, does it really matter if any display can do 1500+ nits today or even in the next 1-2 years?

Having said all that, 1000 to 1100 nit OLED..... perhaps is coming???
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post #6 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
How many titles are there that are mastered above 1000 nits? With any and all tiles regardless of mastering luminance, how many times does 800+ nit content appear on screen. If you can answer that, how long is said content on screen? Once you get those figures, does it really matter if any display can do 1500+ nits today or even in the next 1-2 years?

Having said all that, 1000 to 1100 nit OLED..... perhaps is coming???
I'd been contemplating getting a 65C7P this fall or waiting for next years improved model. I think I'm going to get the C7 and start enjoying it! It's not like I threw my VT50 in the trash when the VT60 came out.

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post #7 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
How many titles are there that are mastered above 1000 nits? With any and all tiles regardless of mastering luminance, how many times does 800+ nit content appear on screen. If you can answer that, how long is said content on screen? Once you get those figures, does it really matter if any display can do 1500+ nits today or even in the next 1-2 years?
the nits on hdr10 mastered content is only going up in the coming years not below, dv is mastered at 4000, currently not a lot of movies that have scenes that go very high, but new releases on blu ray uhd and netflix will continue to see mastered content at higher nits in the coming years. and that is just film based content. you leave out video games, what about upcoming pc hdr games (along with xbox one x and ps4 pro hdr games) that are advertising bright hdr performance? 700-800 nits wont cut it in the next 1-2 years, oleds need to keep up. It takes the punch out of outdoor movie scenes or an open world game. currently lcd's have an advantage, having seen the sony z9d and lg oled (c7), i found the hdr performance (with currently available content) to be noticeably better on the former.

ps - just to clear up the 1500 nits comment i made, i didn't mean that they ought to strike a target of 1500 when i said that but they definitely must show leaps compared to what they have now on the peak brightness front.

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Having said all that, 1000 to 1100 nit OLED..... perhaps is coming???
iinm, there was speculation around last year that the 2017 lg oleds would hit 1000 nits but it did not happen. this news isn't an official company release and seems more speculation, lg's real plans for the 2018 lineup and what peak brightness they would achieve won't be known before winter this year or probably cedia in sept.

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post #8 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
the nits on hdr10 mastered content is only going up in the coming years not below, dv is mastered at 4000, currently not a lot of movies that have scenes that go very high, but new releases on blu ray uhd and netflix will continue to see mastered content at higher nits in the coming years. and that is just film based content. you leave out video games, what about upcoming pc hdr games (along with xbox one x and ps4 pro hdr games) that are advertising bright hdr performance? 700-800 nits wont cut it in the next 1-2 years, oleds need to keep up. It takes the punch out of outdoor movie scenes or an open world game. currently lcd's have an advantage, having seen the sony z9d and lg oled (c7), i found the hdr performance (with currently available content) to be noticeably better on the former.
I don't know about the mastered content only rising in nit level content. I think the majority of Hollywood post houses are moving to OLED as their master and client displays. If that holds true, 1000 nit content will be the majority as it is today.

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ps - just to clear up the 1500 nits comment i made, i didn't mean that they ought to strike a target of 1500 when i said that but they definitely must show leaps compared to what they have now on the peak brightness front.
I know

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iinm, there was speculation around last year that the 2017 lg oleds would hit 1000 nits but it did not happen. this news isn't an official company release and seems more speculation, lg's real plans for the 2018 lineup and what peak brightness they would achieve won't be known before winter this year or probably cedia in sept.
I think 1000+ nit OLED is probable for 2018... no smoke and mirrors or retracted statements.
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post #9 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
I'd been contemplating getting a 65C7P this fall or waiting for next years improved model. I think I'm going to get the C7 and start enjoying it! It's not like I threw my VT50 in the trash when the VT60 came out.
Love my C7s. I don't see where you can go wrong by getting one now, especially with the price drops.
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post #10 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 05:42 PM
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Love my C7s. I don't see where you can go wrong by getting one now, especially with the price drops.
Well if you like them then maybe i can jump the plasma ship if prices fall even more this fall.

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post #11 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 05:56 PM
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Is HDMI 2.1 a given at this point for next year's model or is it still up in the air?

Also is this implying 2018s won't come until after May next year?
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post #12 of 239 Old 07-06-2017, 08:23 PM
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I think that HDMI 2.1 is a maybe for some models in 2018 but a mostly for all models in 2019.
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post #13 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 04:25 AM
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Love my C7s. I don't see where you can go wrong by getting one now, especially with the price drops.
Thanks D! That's all I needed to hear.

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post #14 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
How many titles are there that are mastered above 1000 nits? With any and all tiles regardless of mastering luminance, how many times does 800+ nit content appear on screen. If you can answer that, how long is said content on screen? Once you get those figures, does it really matter if any display can do 1500+ nits today or even in the next 1-2 years?

Having said all that, 1000 to 1100 nit OLED..... perhaps is coming???
That's not so much the problem as much as lower luminance means more aggressive tone mapping for higher mastered content, for static HDR at least. I'm sure you're already well aware that 500 nit highlight mastered at 4,000 nit will be much less than 500 nit on a lower brightness tv after tonemapping is applied.

But I guess we have dolby vision and active hdr helps a lot... But I think anything over 1,000 nit gives good headroom for tonemapping roll off for content mastered above 4,000 nit.

just my 2 cents anyways. I'm more than happy with 2017 OLEDs, so much so that I probably won't upgrade until OLED can basically hit full coverage of UHD standard, meaning 100% P3 and 4,000 nit - which will be a ways off.
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post #15 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 06:01 AM
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I was considering waiting on 2018, but the 2016 and 2017 models remind me of the VT50 year for Panny, really coming together. Pricing is excellent on the C7, and I am looking real hard at one. Now knowing DV cal is coming together, its a good time for OLED.

As stated above, I do think 2016 and 2017 share base panels, and then 2018 is the next "redesign", from what I have read here. Sometimes redesign works for you, or against you. IMO, the 2017's are pretty damn mature in feature sets and controls, as well as PQ.
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post #16 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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ditch woled, move to rgb oled, woled limits color volume.
Not correct. It is not the use of white OLED emission (WOLED) that limits color volume or color gamut, but rather the limited luminance and LGs decision to use a 4th 'white' subpixel to conpensate for that limited output.

If LG used a conventional 3 RGB colored subpixels per pixel, gamut at peak luminamce would increase, but peak white ouput would decrease by ~33%.

If/when LG develops a WOLED technology that can match LCD backlightunits in terms of output, they'll becable to ditch their 4th white subpixel and match LCD in gamut and color volume as well...


Quote:
abl issue has been improved in the 2017 models compared to previous years. any more improvement would be a good thing.
A trend that is almost certain to continue in 2018 and beyond...

Quote:
an 'incremental' improvement to peak brightness is kind of a vague term. currently the lg's do about 700-800 nits, incremental could mean they bump it to 900? i'd like to see a 1500 nits oled, this is an area where the oleds have a lot of catching to do with lcd.
We can probably safely assume that 'incremental' means far shy of 'doubling'

Anything less than 10% increase in peak brightness wouldn't even be worth talking about. So my working assumption is that the 2018 WOLEDs will break safely above 1000 lumens peak but are unlikely to achieve 1500...

Quote:
I think 2019 or '20 could be the year where we see a drastic improvement in oleds. 2018 might be just more small leaps like 2016->2017.
LG has confirmed a two-year 'tick/tock' OLED panel development cycle. 'Tick' years are major changes to WOLED panel technology, 'tock' years are consolidation / small incremental improvement years with little/no changes to underlyng WOLED panel architecture & manufacturing.

2017 was a 'tock' year and 2018 is slated be be a year of much more significant changeto the WOLED panel.

Changing to blue TADF would constitute a major change (as would practically any change to the material composition of the WOLED panel).

Whatever changes are in store for 2018, there are likely to be more hiccups rolling them out than we saw in 2017, and by 2019 we should see those improvements consolidated.

Then in 2020, we're in for another 'tick' year, probably tied to the first 10.5G production from P10 and concievably involving the first printed manufacturing of OLED panels...
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post #17 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought LG was on a "tock" cycle in 2017 and that 2018 would be a net new generation of panel? That along with not having to support 3D should give a lot more brightness?
This is correct, 2018 should be a 'tick' year that should introduce more significant changes to underlying WOLED panel composition.

Increased brightness would make it easier for LG to reintroduce 3D, but would then represent a step backwards as far as keeping up with Samsung in the 'brightness wars'.

I think the best we can hope for is that LG may introduce one entry-level model supporting 3D with more modest color volume for HDR (but I wouldn't hold my breath )...
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post #18 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 02:38 PM
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I for one prefer buying on the tock year.
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post #19 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I for one prefer buying on the tock year.
In general, me too. I decided to stick with my 2016 65C6P because the modest incremental PQ improvements did not outweigh our minor (though ongoing) interest in 3D.

So my next TV will probably be a 2019 model...

Personally, I'm not overly excited by increased brightness and/or incrementally wider color gamut (we view anything we care about with the lights off). Complete support for Atmos sound (Atmos/DD+ over ARC) and the varios HDR formats (ie: calibration) are more important to me.

Using increased brightness to support BFI/reduced motion blur, support for HFR, and whatever HDMI/video port standard materializes next would all be icing on the cake...
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post #20 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 03:27 PM
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Im real happy with the E6 though. If the Dolby Vision calibrations go well on the 7's, I will be tempted. Not sure I want to wait and get a 2018, because of minor changes, so I could be in the 2019 boat too.
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post #21 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 03:58 PM
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LG has confirmed a two-year 'tick/tock' OLED panel development cycle.
Where did they say this, thanks. I'm surprised there isn't more info about the 2018 panels yet.
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post #22 of 239 Old 07-07-2017, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Where did they say this, thanks. I'm surprised there isn't more info about the 2018 panels yet.
Here is the original post with source: OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread

My Korean is not too good (as in nonexistant) but takibg ynotgoal's translation at face value, LG has stated that new WOLED panel developments are on a two-year cycle.

It has been pointed out to me that this entire use of 'tick/tock' terminology was borrowed from Intel here on AVS (by Rogo) and so has never actually been used by LG...

p.s. And in terms of 'info sbout the 2018 panels', the link included in the lead post thay kicked off this thread contains this:

"LG Display introduces Thermally Activated Delayed Fluorescence (TADF) material through the system to improve the performance of large organic light emitting diodes (OLEDs).

As soon as possible, it will be applied to products to be introduced next year It can improve the efficiency such as power consumption and lifetime while increasing the performance of white OLED (WOLED)."

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post #23 of 239 Old 07-08-2017, 04:29 AM
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Nits, nits, nits... Is everyone using their displays at their maximum output capacity ? Because showing flashlights to your retinas is not usually a good idea, because that is what I would imagine the searing brightness of "1000 nits" would feel like, as even now I'm not using maximum brightness even on my 6 year old TN monitor.

All I want is variable frame rate (gaming) and dynamic metadata (no clipping no matter what level of nits the movie has been mastered, as I would understand it), which are part of the hdmi 2.1 specification. My wallet is ready to take the hit. I've been skipping OLED models since 2015 and this getting boring. And I really, really, don't want to play panel lottery, that is the reason I've skipped 2015 and 2016 models. 2017 was outdated even before it hit the streets because of the hdmi 2.1. I won't buy one now because that would mean that I can't afford to buy one for the next few years, or more specifically it would be insane thing to do because of the cost of the unit relative to my income.

Hopefully my faithful Panasonic PT-AE900 (720p projector) does not die before the release of the 2018 models...
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post #24 of 239 Old 07-08-2017, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Nits, nits, nits... Is everyone using their displays at their maximum output capacity ? Because showing flashlights to your retinas is not usually a good idea, because that is what I would imagine the searing brightness of "1000 nits" would feel like, as even now I'm not using maximum brightness even on my 6 year old TN monitor.

All I want is variable frame rate (gaming) and dynamic metadata (no clipping no matter what level of nits the movie has been mastered, as I would understand it), which are part of the hdmi 2.1 specification. My wallet is ready to take the hit. I've been skipping OLED models since 2015 and this getting boring. And I really, really, don't want to play panel lottery, that is the reason I've skipped 2015 and 2016 models. 2017 was outdated even before it hit the streets because of the hdmi 2.1. I won't buy one now because that would mean that I can't afford to buy one for the next few years, or more specifically it would be insane thing to do because of the cost of the unit relative to my income.

Hopefully my faithful Panasonic PT-AE900 (720p projector) does not die before the release of the 2018 models...
2017 is your bestt bet to avoid panel lottery. With expected changes to panel manufacturing in 2018, reasonable liklihood we see a modest step backwards in the panel lottery department.

Being 'outdated' and avoiding risk by sticking to the tried and true are two sides of the same coin...
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post #25 of 239 Old 07-08-2017, 10:25 AM
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Probably have to move away from WOLED and color filters to get above 1000 nits for peak luminance. I'm waiting for native RGB (no color filters), but I don't care if it can do 1000 nits or not. Looks like I'm going to waiting another couple years at least.
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post #26 of 239 Old 07-08-2017, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Probably have to move away from WOLED and color filters to get above 1000 nits for peak luminance. I'm waiting for native RGB (no color filters), but I don't care if it can do 1000 nits or not. Looks like I'm going to waiting another couple years at least.
For native RGB electroluminescence, you'll probably be waiting for true QLED rather than ever seeing an organic panel that large.

Replacing passive color filters with opto-emissive patterened RGB quantum dot color filters (QDCF) will roughly double light ouput from the same underlying organic light emission, so that's probably the more realistic way for WOLED to deliver what you are hoping for...

But LG is hinting that the use of TADF (or whatever modified chemistry) is going to result in a brghtness boost next year...

Solidly over 1000 Nits peak (for specular highlights) in 2018 would seem to be a near-certainty. If the increase was less than 10%, hard to fathom why they'd be making any noise about it...
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post #27 of 239 Old 07-08-2017, 11:08 AM
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I mainly want native RGB (no color filters) for color accuracy and color naturalness -- not for higher luminance. Many people still report that OLED, i.e. LGs, more or less still looks like an LCD with perfect blacks -- in particular the color reproduction, and this is because of the color filters -- I believe. It does not produce the same 'organic' looking color as plasma or native RGB OLED. People who have the 2013 native RGB Samsung OLED have said the color matches that uncanny 'organic' look that we got with plasma. The LGs with color filters don't.
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post #28 of 239 Old 07-09-2017, 01:24 AM
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Lotsa people say things with not much but their subjective impression to back it up. The calibration reports will tell you most of what you need to know about color reproduction. 2017 near black color rendition is better than 2016, with 2018 probably set to be even better.
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post #29 of 239 Old 07-09-2017, 03:59 AM
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In general, me too. I decided to stick with my 2016 65C6P because the modest incremental PQ improvements did not outweigh our minor (though ongoing) interest in 3D.

So my next TV will probably be a 2019 model...

Personally, I'm not overly excited by increased brightness and/or incrementally wider color gamut (we view anything we care about with the lights off). Complete support for Atmos sound (Atmos/DD+ over ARC) and the varios HDR formats (ie: calibration) are more important to me.

Using increased brightness to support BFI/reduced motion blur, support for HFR, and whatever HDMI/video port standard materializes next would all be icing on the cake...
Great point about watching anything we really care about in the dark. Yes! That's how it should be. Increased brightness sounds great and all but what are the real world applications of this extra brightness? How much a difference in true viewing enjoyment will it provide? Like others that own 2016 models and 2017 models, we are very content with the TVs brightness capabilities and HDR looks excellent. Period.

I'll be hanging onto my E6 foe quite some time. It's got great overall PQ, arguably the best 3D performance ever on a consumer level TV, and feels like it will last for a while. Good enough for me.

I wonder what the 2019 models will have?

LG OLED65E6P, Samsung PN64H5000
Samsung UBD-8500K, LG BD 570
Polk RTi Towers, STi surrounds
Polk Subwoofer
Sony DH550 AVR
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post #30 of 239 Old 07-09-2017, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
I mainly want native RGB (no color filters) for color accuracy and color naturalness -- not for higher luminance. Many people still report that OLED, i.e. LGs, more or less still looks like an LCD with perfect blacks -- in particular the color reproduction, and this is because of the color filters -- I believe. It does not produce the same 'organic' looking color as plasma or native RGB OLED. People who have the 2013 native RGB Samsung OLED have said the color matches that uncanny 'organic' look that we got with plasma. The LGs with color filters don't.
It has nothing to do with WRGB based subpixels and everything to do with metameric failure. A simple white point offset makes these displays look just as 'organic' as plasmas.
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Last edited by D-Nice; 07-09-2017 at 08:05 PM.
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