2016 WOLED No Burn in poll - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: I have a 2016 WOLED with >700 hours and no burn in and watch:
no static content > 10% 7 46.67%
CNN 10-20% 1 6.67%
CNN >20% 0 0%
MSNBC 10-20% 1 6.67%
MSNBC >20% 2 13.33%
specific video game 10-20% 2 13.33%
specific video game 10-20% 2 13.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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2016 WOLED No Burn in poll

This is a poll to survey viewing habits of 2016 WOLED owners with at least 700 hours of use and no signs of permanent burn-in to assess viewing habits of the owners without burn-in.

The poll is intended fir WOLED owners with no signs of burn-in on red fields without judging whether that burn-in is significant and visible when viewing actual content or not. Temporary IR can also look like burn-in, so if you think you have burn-in, stop watching the offending content for another 200+ hours of use, use a manual pixel refresh cycle or two and check again with a red field. If it is gone, it was probably IR, not burn-in (so you can vote in this poll ). If it is still visible, possibly a bit milder, it is probably fifferential-aging-related burn-in (so please don't vote in this poll).

I had to enter the poll very quickly due to the 5-minute time-out and screwed up the last entry - it should read: 'specific video game >20%' (hopefully obvious ).

Votes will be public. If you are voting, please add a post describing:

Model
Manufacturing Date
Total Hours
OLED Light
Contrast
Energy Saving

And any additional color you can provide on your viewing habits.

Those with burn-in (the unfortunate 15 ), please do not vote in this poll - it is intended to try to assess whether the viewing habits of those without burn-in is fundamentally different from those that have been unfortunate enough to develop it or whether there is significant overlap (which might suggest a quality issue).

Last edited by fafrd; 08-11-2017 at 03:20 PM.
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post #2 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Model: 65C6P

Manufacturing Date: purchased in November '16 (will add later)

Total Hours: 781

OLED Light: 30

Contrast: 95

Energy Saving: I think it is OFF - can't locate in Game Mode

We don"t watch any meaningful amount of CNN or MSNBC but are in the >20% camp playing Horizon Zero Dawn the summer. Over 150 hours out of 781 total (so far . There are some HUDs that are bright yellow, but they are not fully saturated so the white subpixel is probably sharing some of the load...
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post #3 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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When you say no burn in, do you mean no burn in visible when watching content, or no burn in when checking for it using a full red screen? I would hope everyone voting is checking for burn in with a full red screen.

Also, while this poll is certainly as piece of the overall recipe, it does not factor in how many consecutive hours people spend watching the same channel or playing the same game. I have a feeling this, in addition to overall percentage of general use, factor into the burn in recipe soup.

Also, I would've liked to have seen a 20-30% and over 30% (instead of just over 20%). More granular. You can get a better picture. I know our MSNBC viewing was 30-40% early on, and from what I recall in the burn in reports, most news watchers were over 30%.

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post #4 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:24 PM
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What about static content of greater than 10% from sports broadcasts or, heaven forbid, Fox News?
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post #5 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
What about static content of greater than 10% from sports broadcasts or, heaven forbid, Fox News?
I suppose it could be simplified (or possibly made more complex for some) by stating it as "any single TV network or video game displaying bright, opaque, static elements consisting of yellow, orange, or red for n% of total time TV is used." So far, burn in reports from normal use have only identified those colors. That's if we're trying to compare apples to apples in terms of viewing patterns between those with burn in and those without.
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post #6 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
What about static content of greater than 10% from sports broadcasts or, heaven forbid, Fox News?
Since the only reports if burn-in so far have focused primarily on CNN and also MSNBC, I wanted to focus on those two channels.

Add more color in the comments and if/when we get enough reports of other channels causing burn-in, we'll back it in .
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post #7 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1special View Post
When you say no burn in, do you mean no burn in visible when watching content, or no burn in when checking for it using a full red screen? I would hope everyone voting is checking for burn in with a full red screen.
Good point - I will circle back to the lead post to clarify I mean burn-in evident on slides. This poll is focused on detecting signs of burn-in without judging how significant they are.

Quote:
Also, while this poll is certainly as piece of the overall recipe, it does not factor in how many consecutive hours people spend watching the same channel or playing the same game. I have a feeling that, in addition to overall percentage of general use, factor into the burn in recipe soup.
While consecutive hours very possibly/probably plays a role in short-term threshold-shift-related temporary IR, there is no evidence consecutive hours plays any role in burn-in (nor any technical argument for why it might).

The WOLED aging curves indicate that as non-random use of subpixels displaying bright fully-saturated image components becomes any significant % of the rest of the field of those same-colored subpixels displaying random content, the static subpixels should age/decay more rapidly than the rest of the field.

This effect is based on total cumulative hours and has nothing to do with consecutive hours (compared to threshold-shift which probably does).

So this poll is focused on cumulative % of several classes of content which have been reported to cause burn in.
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post #8 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Good point - I will circle back to the lead post to clarify I mean burn-in evident on slides. This poll is focused on detecting signs of burn-in without judging how significant they are.



While consecutive hours very possibly/probably plays a role in short-term threshold-shift-related temporary IR, there is no evidence consecutive hours plays any role in burn-in (nor any technical argument for why it might).

The WOLED aging curves indicate that as non-random use of subpixels displaying bright fully-saturated image components becomes any significant % of the rest of the field of those same-colored subpixels displaying random content, the static subpixels should age/decay more rapidly than the rest of the field.

This effect is based on total cumulative hours and has nothing to do with consecutive hours (compared to threshold-shift which probably does).

So this poll is focused on cumulative % of several classes of content which have been reported to cause burn in.
Fair enough. I trust you know a lot more on the subject than I do. But are we saying that playing the same video game with bright static elements on the screen, for several days or weeks is OK, as long as we then watch several weeks or months of random content afterwards?

Also, are you saying that persistent temporary IR cannot lead to burn in? Are they really 2 completely different, unrelated, things that have no effect on one another?
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post #9 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Good point - I will circle back to the lead post to clarify I mean burn-in evident on slides. This poll is focused on detecting signs of burn-in without judging how significant they are.
I believe that most of the victims of burn in reported it only after it had become severe enough to notice while watching normal content. So the initial burn in probably developed much sooner (at a lower number of hours of use) than what has been reported. But I think > 700 hours is a good enough criteria for this poll.
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post #10 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by no1special View Post
Fair enough. I trust you know a lot more on the subject than I do. But are we saying that playing the same video game with bright static elements on the screen, for several days or weeks is OK, as long as we then watch several weeks or months of random content afterwards?
Yes, any differential-aging-based effect should fade as the % difference in use/hours is reduced.

This is most effective with displaying an 'anti-logo' image such as all red but black CNN, since this will allow an equal amount of time to the 'CNN time' to allow the rest of the red subpixels to 'catch up'.

With random content, it is far less intensity per hour (my guess is 1/16th) so it may be that as many as 16 times the CNN time is needed with random content to get the same improvement as 1x with an anti-logo screen.

When we talk about 'catching up' this is only material as far as the eyes can detect - I'm guessing a 10% intensity difference is percievable but not so sure 5% is. And by 1-2% pretty sure it looks like 'no burn-in' to our eyes...

Quote:
Also, are you saying that persistent temporary IR cannot lead to burn in? Are they really 2 completely different, unrelated, things that have no effect on one another?
Threshold variations can be caused by manufacturing and threshold shift can be caused by heat (and also apparently by sunlight, as recently confirmed). They may decay over time, they are easily measured and relatively easy to compensate for, and there may even be ways to shift them internally (who knows what all is involved in 'pixel refresh').

The effect of threshold shift and differentail-aging on output image us identical - less light output for the same control input. But they are fundamentally different mechanisms that have nothing to do with each other, other than the fact that driving a saturated static image can cause both. Threshold shift is non-permanent and reversible while OLED aging is permanent and non-reversible (and so a subset of pixels whose aging has been accelerated through static use will permanently be diarker than surrounding pixels that have aged less through less use).

I'm not an OLED engineer but I am a solid-state engineer and this is just my best guess based on what I have read and what users have reported...
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post #11 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1special View Post
I believe that most of the victims of burn in reported it only after it had become severe enough to notice while watching normal content. So the initial burn in probably developed much sooner (at a lower number of hours of use) than what has been reported. But I think > 700 hours is a good enough criteria for this poll.
That is a good point. Except for the one member who developed visible-in-field burn-in after 10% use because he was checking for it.

As I've already demonstrated, nothing pevents additional polls in the future. This effort is only going to lead to anything useful depending on the good-will of happy owners willing to invest a bit of time in trying to get a grip on this issue. As long as we reach sensible conclusions one step at a time, hopefully the willingness to continue voting in new polls will be there as we continue the process of honing-in.

CNN and MSNBC are two good, solid, repeatable references. It would be great if there was a popular video game or two that we could hone in on as examples of burn-in-causing content as precisely...
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post #12 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 04:45 PM
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No burn in.

2134 hours in.

Video game 20%. Oled light 40,contrast 100

No static logo at all.

PC monitor 20%, but my oled light is 0 when using it as pc monitor. Increase it when watching YouTube, etc.

The rest is movies, TV shows, etc.
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post #13 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
No burn in.

2134 hours in.

Video game 20%. Oled light 40,contrast 100

No static logo at all.

PC monitor 20%, but my oled light is 0 when using it as pc monitor. Increase it when watching YouTube, etc.

The rest is movies, TV shows, etc.
Thanks for this additional detail.

To be sure I understand what you mean, 'No static logo at all' means TV/cable or also applies to your video gaming?

Which video game do you play for 20% of use and does it have no static HUD? If it does have static HUD, is any of the
HUD bright saturated yellow or orange or red?

Whatever the answer, you have no signs of burn-in after 20% use with that game and OLED Light at 40 (similar to my 20% use with Horizon Zero Dawn and OLED Light at 30).

And also 20% PC monitor use with no burn-in with OLED Light at 0. The whole desktop is static, but does it have any elements that are bright yellow or orange or red?
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post #14 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 05:08 PM
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This is a biased poll
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post #15 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
This is a biased poll
Why? Because it doesn't include Fox News?
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post #16 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by no1special View Post
Why? Because it doesn't include Fox News?
FN + FBN have a massively larger audience than the other cable news outlets combined. AVS Forum isn't the "universe". Check Adweek. All the paying advertisers do.

Seriously, IIRC, FN has mostly blue and white banners. It's FBN which has straw/gold/yellow elements in the stock ticker which caused my burn-out or whatever. Not a particularly cartoon-colored newtork for graphics. The straw/gold "DOW", Market Alerts, and FBN logo are all I got.

Know YOU are aware but fafrd mostly ignores the incessant commercials, many without stock ticker. These stuck pixels are not in my view "static". The OLED must have some kind of cumulative memory for yellow/orange/red elements. FWIW, if you recall my initial post, FBN comprised 4 - 5 hours of 10 - 14 hours of daily viewing, mostly at the NYSE open and before noon and around the close.

FWIW, the "shadow" of the burn has been diminishing since avoiding FBN on the B6 for the last 12 days. At 2' - 3' the "DOW" which is the worst shadow is fairly faint unless the background is red or brown. Fingers and toes crossed this trend may continue. On a red slide, 30% - 40% of the "DOW" discovered after your first post lingers. Have doubts that'll ever 100% disappear. At my normal ~ 9' viewing distance, the "DOW" is barely evident. Guess we'll find out what happens after another 1,000 hours...

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post #17 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks for this additional detail.

To be sure I understand what you mean, 'No static logo at all' means TV/cable or also applies to your video gaming?

Which video game do you play for 20% of use and does it have no static HUD? If it does have static HUD, is any of the
HUD bright saturated yellow or orange or red?

Whatever the answer, you have no signs of burn-in after 20% use with that game and OLED Light at 40 (similar to my 20% use with Horizon Zero Dawn and OLED Light at 30).

And also 20% PC monitor use with no burn-in with OLED Light at 0. The whole desktop is static, but does it have any elements that are bright yellow or orange or red?
No not really, some icon in chrome quick access are red, but no burn.

Also when I mean no logo, I mean no TV news or no cable TV at all for all that matter. I'm streaming only from Netflix and Amazon and some torrent.

Last edited by Morille Tremblay; 08-11-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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post #18 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
No not really, some icon in chrome quick access are red, but no burn.

Also when I mean no logo, I mean no TV news or no cable TV at all for all that matter. I'm streaming only from Netflix and Amazon and some torrent.
Thanks, and what video game are you playing 20% of the time? Does it have any bright yellow or orange or red static elements?
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post #19 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Challenged View Post
FN + FBN have a massively larger audience than the other cable news outlets combined. AVS Forum isn't the "universe". Check Adweek. All the paying advertisers do.

Seriously, IIRC, FN has mostly blue and white banners. It's FBN which has straw/gold/yellow elements in the stock ticker which caused my burn-out or whatever. Not a particularly cartoon-colored newtork for graphics. The straw/gold "DOW", Market Alerts, and FBN logo are all I got.

Know YOU are aware but fafrd mostly ignores the incessant commercials, many without stock ticker. These stuck pixels are not in my view "static". The OLED must have some kind of cumulative memory for yellow/orange/red elements. FWIW, if you recall my initial post, FBN comprised 4 - 5 hours of 10 - 14 hours of daily viewing, mostly at the NYSE open and before noon and around the close.

FWIW, the "shadow" of the burn has been diminishing since avoiding FBN on the B6 for the last 12 days. At 2' - 3' the "DOW" which is the worst shadow is fairly faint unless the background is red or brown. Fingers and toes crossed this trend may continue. On a red slide, 30% - 40% of the "DOW" discovered after your first post lingers. Have doubts that'll ever 100% disappear. At my normal ~ 9' viewing distance, the "DOW" is barely evident. Guess we'll find out what happens after another 1,000 hours...

2,900 hours, ISF Dark, OLED 77, Contrast 84, Brightness 50, Color 49; lighted living room but not overly bright day or night.
By 'static', we mean non-random on an average basis (and especially if bright - close to maximum luminance).

Add time should be subtracted from staric logo % - we are looking for what % of the time those specific subpixels were displaying (bright) correlated non-random content, as opposed to the overall viewing time (where most subpixels will be displaying random non-correlated output).
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post #20 of 81 Old 08-11-2017, 08:48 PM
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Is this a joke? This whole burn-in bs is getting out of hand. There is burn-in and there is image retention. And then there is going overboard.

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post #21 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 05:48 AM
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Is this a joke? This whole burn-in bs is getting out of hand. There is burn-in and there is image retention. And then there is going overboard.
No, it's not a joke but it is getting out of hand. Just about every thread regarding OLED now has some burn in reference to it. Like I said.....here we go again just like with plasma where I had to constantly hear about burn in all day long on the forums in every thread. A very small percentage of overall users have had issues but that doesn't mean it's widespread. It's the way of things. In five years if most of these sets have burn in, me included then I promise to come eat my crow and apologize. Until then.....

I used to joke way back when that my KURO even if it had burn in would still massively outperform people's crappy LCDs.

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post #22 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadLizard View Post
No, it's not a joke but it is getting out of hand. Just about every thread regarding OLED now has some burn in reference to it. Like I said.....here we go again just like with plasma where I had to constantly hear about burn in all day long on the forums in every thread. A very small percentage of overall users have had issues but that doesn't mean it's widespread. It's the way of things. In five years if most of these sets have burn in, me included then I promise to come eat my crow and apologize. Until then.....

I used to joke way back when that my KURO even if it had burn in would still massively outperform people's crappy LCDs.
You can go in the LCD thread if you prefer, they don't talk about burn in you know.

They'll talk about light bleed.
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post #23 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Morille Tremblay View Post
You can go in the LCD thread if you prefer, they don't talk about burn in you know.

They'll talk about light bleed.
Right? It's always something....isn't it? Maybe we should all just watch our damned TVs and stop the banter?
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post #24 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 09:39 AM
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FWIW.... 817 hours on Tekken 7 with LG 55C7.

Burn in? Nil.

About 800 hours of the 817 hours is spent displaying 2 oversized health bars that looks like this:

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Originally Posted by Ben Tan View Post
FWIW.... 817 hours on Tekken 7 with LG 55C7.

Burn in? Nil.

About 800 hours of the 817 hours is spent displaying 2 oversized health bars that looks like this:
That's fantastic info - thanks.

98% of use with a bright yellow/orange static logo and no signs of burn-in!

Can you share your setting for OLED Light, Contrast and Energy Saving?

Also, when you say no burn-in, is that from checking on a red field or just what you can see on content?

If content, would you mind throwing up a red field and checking whether there are any signs of burn-in with that test?

And lastly, doesn't seem like you've voted in the poll yet - please vote in the last mis-typed category (it's supposed to read >20%).
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post #26 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben Tan View Post
FWIW.... 817 hours on Tekken 7 with LG 55C7.

Burn in? Nil.
Tekken 7 was released on June 1st. So on average you played this for more than 11 hours per day? Seriously??
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post #27 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
That's fantastic info - thanks.

98% of use with a bright yellow/orange static logo and no signs of burn-in!

Can you share your setting for OLED Light, Contrast and Energy Saving?

Also, when you say no burn-in, is that from checking on a red field or just what you can see on content?

If content, would you mind throwing up a red field and checking whether there are any signs of burn-in with that test?

And lastly, doesn't seem like you've voted in the poll yet - please vote in the last mis-typed category (it's supposed to read >20%).
I will list out the settings when I get home.

To answer the other questions;
1) I've checked it on an entirely red, grey and green screen. I don't see any burn-in at all and I'm very OCD about these kinda things as a previous plasma owner.

2) I'll try to post up an image later on when I get home if I don't forget.

3) Alright, will go vote.


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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Tekken 7 was released on June 1st. So on average you played this for more than 11 hours per day? Seriously??
It's not just me who is playing, my wife and other relatives play too. We are getting into the pro scene for Tekken.

800+ hours isn't so bad. I've seen some Korean streamers who has over 1000 hours and that's only one person playing.

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post #28 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 12:25 PM
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Why? Because it doesn't include Fox News?
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post #29 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 01:51 PM
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FN + FBN have a massively larger audience than the other cable news outlets combined. AVS Forum isn't the "universe". Check Adweek. All the paying advertisers do.

Seriously, IIRC, FN has mostly blue and white banners. It's FBN which has straw/gold/yellow elements in the stock ticker which caused my burn-out or whatever. Not a particularly cartoon-colored newtork for graphics. The straw/gold "DOW", Market Alerts, and FBN logo are all I got.

Know YOU are aware but fafrd mostly ignores the incessant commercials, many without stock ticker. These stuck pixels are not in my view "static". The OLED must have some kind of cumulative memory for yellow/orange/red elements. FWIW, if you recall my initial post, FBN comprised 4 - 5 hours of 10 - 14 hours of daily viewing, mostly at the NYSE open and before noon and around the close.

FWIW, the "shadow" of the burn has been diminishing since avoiding FBN on the B6 for the last 12 days. At 2' - 3' the "DOW" which is the worst shadow is fairly faint unless the background is red or brown. Fingers and toes crossed this trend may continue. On a red slide, 30% - 40% of the "DOW" discovered after your first post lingers. Have doubts that'll ever 100% disappear. At my normal ~ 9' viewing distance, the "DOW" is barely evident. Guess we'll find out what happens after another 1,000 hours...

2,900 hours, ISF Dark, OLED 77, Contrast 84, Brightness 50, Color 49; lighted living room but not overly bright day or night.
I never said, or even thought, AVS was the universe. I know Fox News has had the highest overall ratings of the 3 major cable news networks for years, but I doubt it's more than the others combined. Even if you add FBN to the mix, I doubt it beats out CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC, combined. I'm talking overall ratings/audience. There may be specific time slots or demographics in which FNC and FBN beat out the others combined. Fox has high ratings because its conservative-leaning audience is not diluted amongst multiple conservative networks like the liberal-leaning audience is amongst CNN and MSNBC.

Anyway, we're off topic. Agree about the commercials. Those "static" logos and graphics are not static for more than about 10 minutes before commercials lasting about 3 minutes come on. So, yeah, it is a cumulative effect of more rapid pixel aging/wear versus the rest of the screen showing much more dynamic content.

That's great news that your burn in seems to be fading somewhat. I'm surprised you noticed it fading over such a short time period. It's been months since we noticed our burn in, and I'm not prepared to say that it's been fading. I could say that I "think" it "may" be fading, but it's too difficult to tell. If/when it reaches a point where it's not visible or barely visible with normal content, then I'll feel comfortable saying it has faded.
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post #30 of 81 Old 08-12-2017, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by no1special View Post
I never said, or even thought, AVS was the universe. I know Fox News has had the highest overall ratings of the 3 major cable news networks for years, but I doubt it's more than the others combined. Even if you add FBN to the mix, I doubt it beats out CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC, combined. I'm talking overall ratings/audience. There may be specific time slots or demographics in which FNC and FBN beat out the others combined. Fox has high ratings because its conservative-leaning audience is not diluted amongst multiple conservative networks like the liberal-leaning audience is amongst CNN and MSNBC.

Anyway, we're off topic.
Yes.

Quote:
Agree about the commercials. Those "static" logos and graphics are not static for more than about 10 minutes before commercials lasting about 3 minutes come on. So, yeah, it is a cumulative effect of more rapid pixel aging/wear versus the rest of the screen showing much more dynamic content.
So take ~77% of overall news time watched to estimate time of static logo display. Sounds about right.

Quote:
That's great news that your burn in seems to be fading somewhat. I'm surprised you noticed it fading over such a short time period. It's been months since we noticed our burn in, and I'm not prepared to say that it's been fading. I could say that I "think" it "may" be fading, but it's too difficult to tell. If/when it reaches a point where it's not visible or barely visible with normal content, then I'll feel comfortable saying it has faded.
Someone needs to find or make a 100% red field pattern with central 'spots' at 98%, 96%, 94%, 92%, and 90% so that those with CNN or MSNBC logo burn-in can assess the magnitude (match the darkened logo to whichever spot looks closest).

Apparent burn-in that fades relatively quickly may actually be threshold-shift-related temporary image retention - true BI and temporary BI look the same and it's actually possible/easy to develop both at once. The IR will fade relatively quickly whil the BI will not.
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