HDTVtest TV Shootout Results: OLED Sweeps All Categories - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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The only issues with the EZ1002 is the price and the lack of DV. It is however incredibly good looking so they can get away with it.
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post #32 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks for this very comprehensive and constructive assessment/review.

Everything you stated makes perfect sense to me but one area I would appreciate additional detail is in the area of near-black performance in general and shadow detail in particular (with pristinne sources / home theater). Sounds as though the Panasonic was the winner in this area, so let's give it a '10'.

With that reference, can you provide any color and a relative scoring as to how the B7 and the A1E performed?
Sure. Near black performance on HDR on the Panasonic was actually behind the LG and Sony. There was a Sicario scene in which the Panasonic was showing shadow detail which it should not have. That shadow detail was not meant to be seen when compared to the Reference monitor. However, I think people see that and automatically think the Panasonic is doing something better the others aren't! I know that's the case because I could hear chatter from attendees discussing this as a positive.

The color on the Panasonic in SDR and HDR mode was certainly the closest to the Reference monitor (if not identical to the naked eye) which is the area where it would stand out for me.

On a 10 scale:
Color:
LG 9. Sony 9. Panasonic 10.

Near black handling:
LG 9. Sony 9. Panasonic 8.

HDR light output:
LG 10. Sony 8. Panasonic 8.

HDR Tone Mapping:
LG 9. Sony 7. Panasonic 8.

All in all, these sets are close. Different use case and different preferences will lead to different opinions. However if you see someone rambling about how one is miles ahead of the others, it's best to ignore them.

Last edited by RobertR1; 08-13-2017 at 01:35 PM.
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post #33 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
Sure. Near black performance on HDR on the Panasonic was actually behind the LG and Sony. There was a Sicario scene in which the Panasonic was showing shadow detail which it should not have. That shadow detail was meant to be seen when compared to the Reference monitor. However, I think people see that and automatically think the Panasonic is doing something better the others aren't! I know that's the case because I could hear chatter from attendees discussing this as a positive.
Thanks for the reply but is there a typo in the bolded phrase above? Did you mean to type 'was not meant'?

Quote:
The color on the Panasonic in SDR and HDR mode was certainly the closest to the Reference monitor (if not identical to the naked eye) which is the area where it would stand out for me.

On a 10 scale:
Color:
LG 9. Sony 9. Panasonic 10.

Near black handling:
LG 9. Sony 9. Panasonic 8.


HDR light output:
LG 10. Sony 8. Panasonic 8.

HDR Tone Mapping:
LG 9. Sony 7. Panasonic 8.
So did one of the LED/LCDs drliver a '10' in the area of near-black handling or was this in regerence to some imaginary perfect TV (or the reference monitor)?

If the LG and Sony were a 9 compared to the reference monitor which was a 10, I'd be interested in any additional color you can provide on how the two WOLED TVs fell short of the reference monitor in the area if near black handling / shadow detail.

Was there ever any near-black DSE visible on any of the WOLED TVs that was not present on thr reference monitor?

Quote:
All in all, these sets are close. Different use case and different preferences will lead to different opinions. However if you see someone rambling about how one is miles ahead of the others, it's best to ignore them.
Makes sense - all three WOLED TVs are based on exactly the same panel, so there are no fundamental technology differences and it is down to execution and prioritization of which factors are most important to get right.

When price is factored in, sounds las though the LG B/C7 is the best value in the premium TV segment, especially if you consider the newly-introduced B7A which is likely to break under the $2000-for-65" ceiling this Holiday Season for those who have an Atmos-enabled AVR...
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post #34 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:37 PM
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Sounds like Panasonic took a page out of LCD's book to try to fool some folks with below black detail elevation (and, based on your account, Robert, it unfortunately worked).
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post #35 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:38 PM
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So, for people who stream UHD HDR the clear choice is the Sony OLED? It will also get a DV update, so even better.
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post #36 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks for the reply but is there a typo in the bolded phrase above? Did you mean to type 'was not meant'?
Corrected. Thank you!

Quote:
So did one of the LED/LCDs drliver a '10' in the area of near-black handling or was this in regerence to some imaginary perfect TV (or the reference monitor)?
Against the reference monitor.

Quote:
If the LG and Sony were a 9 compared to the reference monitor which was a 10, I'd be interested in any additional color you can provide on how the two WOLED TVs fell short of the reference monitor in the area if near black handling / shadow detail.

Was there ever any near-black DSE visible on any of the WOLED TVs that was not present on thr reference monitor?
Vignette was more of a issue compared to the reference monitor on all the OLED's. DSE on brighter scenes like the motion resolution test pattern scroll was more of an issue on the WOLED's than DSE on darker scenes.

Quote:
Makes sense - all three WOLED TVs are based on exactly the same panel, so there are no fundamental technology differences and it is down to execution and prioritization of which factors are most important to get right.

When price is factored in, sounds las though the LG B/C7 is the best value in the premium TV segment, especially if you consider the newly-introduced B7A which is likely to break under the $2000-for-65" ceiling this Holiday Season for those who have an Atmos-enabled AVR...
I haven't looked into a B7A but for this event, with these panels (gotta respect panel lottery), the LG was easily towards the top in most categories. That's without taking any price delta into account.
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post #37 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Sounds like Panasonic took a page out of LCD's book to try to fool some folks with below black detail elevation (and, based on your account, Robert, it unfortunately worked).
I'm sure someone will correct me but I believe they did that back in the VT days when they'd go up against the Kuro's. I recall there being a famous city skyline scene at night that was being championed for it's shadow detail on the VT's when it reality, the black was elevated and the source had those details intentionally hidden.
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post #38 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Skunkbeard View Post
So, for people who stream UHD HDR the clear choice is the Sony OLED? It will also get a DV update, so even better.
Not sure about that. From the breakdown of categories, the Living room criteria (that the Sony won) involved non 4k material. If talking about UHD HDR content, streaming or disc based, the results say the LG.

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post #39 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Rumors of Panasonic selling the EZ1002 in the US ware interesting. As much as I like my new LG C7 I have always had Penny plasmas and their PQ and in later years, calibration friendliness would cause me to relegate the LG to workout room and look at getting the Penny for main viewing.
I have had each of the 4k sets that Panasonic released in the U.S. and aside from banding on the their 1st 4k set, they have been fantastic. When I heard they stopped releasing sets in the U.S. I ended going back to Sony. If Panasonic were to release this new one in the U.S. I most likely would cancel my order for a ZD9 and go for it since I have been impressed in the past with the Panasonic 4k sets.

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post #40 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 01:53 PM
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Get all three depending on usage criteria. If it weren't for Kodak and LG, what a crap pile today's TVs situation would be (would the Z9D even exist in the vacuum of OLED pushing LCD to perform better?).
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post #41 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:02 PM
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[quote=RobertR1;54627850]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Thanks for the reply but is there a typo in the bolded phrase above? Did you mean to type 'was not meant'?

Corrected. Thank you!
Figured as much (Freudian slip ).

Quote:
Against the reference monitor.
Got it (and makes sense).

Quote:
Vignette was more of a issue compared to the reference monitor on all the OLED's.
Thanks for that explanation. I slogged my way through 4 defective 65EF9500 WOLEDs before finally landing a 65C6P without excessive vignette and I'd forgotten that the 2017 WOLEDs have apparently made no further progress in this area and may have even taken a small step backward (especially visible anti-vignette).

So if the LG and Sony WOLEDs did not suffer from any vignette woukd they have scored a 10 in te area of near-black handling and essentially matched the reference monitor, or were there other near-black areas where they were noticably a step behind?

Quote:
DSE on brighter scenes like the motion resolution test pattern scroll was more of an issue on the WOLED's than DSE on darker scenes.
Sounds as though these WOLED panels were all 'lucky' in the area of near-black streaking and what some call 'jail bars' ;which is generally most visible as DSE on pans over dark scenes) but average or even possibly below average in the area of vignette.

It all comes down to the same issue of near-black panel uniformity and this is an area where LGD WOLED panels need to continue to improve(at least compared to a reference monitor ).

Thanks for the color.

Quote:
I haven't looked into a B7A but for this event, with these panels (gotta respect panel lottery), the LG was easily towards the top in most categories. That's without taking any price delta into account.
The B7A is identical to the B7P except for lack of integrated Atmos speakers for which MSRP is $500 lower for 65". The fact that the LG entry-level WOLED was close to the top in most categories speaks volumes as to which TV is the price-performance leader this year in the 'premium TV' segment...

This review has also made me comfortable sitting tight with my 65C6P for another year or two while LG gets the remaining kinks worked out of their near-black uniformity. My 65C6P is so fantastic on SDR that at this point, I'm holding out for near-black perfection before playing the panel lottery again .
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post #42 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Get all three depending on usage criteria. If it weren't for Kodak and LG, what a crap pile today's TVs situation would be (would the Z9D even exist in the vacuum of OLED pushing LCD to perform better?).
Power consumption would be higher as people would be clinging to their plasmas even longer then they have now.

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post #43 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Heretic! Burn him for daring to choose the inferior Korean product. At least you can rest easy knowing that not having Panasonic in the US is not the end of the world for a videophile.
It's a pity Panasonic is not releasing in the US as the more competition the better...and sometimes lower prices too for the consumer!
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post #44 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:13 PM
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^Competition is great, but I actually don't think their presence will inch the price downward anymore than LG is already doing as evidenced by the release of the B7A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Power consumption would be higher as people would be clinging to their plasmas even longer then they have now.
Some still are...a few RGB or die fans won't touch LGD's WOLED tech because of some imagined hocus pocus RGB color reproduction capability (or maybe it's the sample and hold motion or a combination thereof).
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post #45 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:17 PM
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Up to this point, why has no one mentioned that they put the `bottom of the line' LG B7 up against the `top of the line' in the other manufacturers? Shame!

Review:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx65e...1706134477.htm
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post #46 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:22 PM
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Because PQ is homogenized across all 5 (6?) models?
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post #47 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Up to this point, why has no one mentioned that they put the `bottom of the line' LG B7 up against the `top of the line' in the other manufacturers? Shame!
Well, they knew the PQ would be identical and they were purchasing the TVs themselves, so can't say I blame them.

If aesthetics and/or sound quality had been factors, would have been a different story.

Also, I assume all of the TVs were 65" - if any were 75-80" then they all should have been (even if that would mean payiing up for a 77G7P ).
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post #48 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Well, they knew the PQ would be identical and they were purchasing the TVs themselves, so can't say I blame them.

If aesthetics and/or sound quality had been factors, would have been a different story.

Also, I assume all of the TVs were 65" - if any were 75-80" then they all should have been (even if that would mean payiing up for a 77G7P ).
Despite all the LG sets having the same panel, the same can't be said for the electronics. If there wasn't a difference from top to bottom, everyone would just buy the B7!

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post #49 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:33 PM
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All TV's were 65inches except the 30inch Reference monitor. Having them all be 65 inches meant you can stand back at the same distance form set to set to get a better apples to apples for performance.
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post #50 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Despite all the LG sets having the same panel, the same can't be said for the electronics. If there wasn't a difference from top to bottom, everyone would just buy the B7!
Yes it can. All picture-quality-impacting electronics including processor are identical accross the entire 2017 LG WOLED TV lineup (including the newly-introduced B7A). The product llineup has been differentiated through sound features/quality and aesthetics.

All 2017 LG WOLED TVs put out exactly the same fantastic image.

People pay up because they want a soundbar or picture-on-glass or a 2mm thick sheet hanging on their wall... (or even a black bezel instead of a silver one or a grey back instead of a white one ).
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post #51 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Despite all the LG sets having the same panel, the same can't be said for the electronics. If there wasn't a difference from top to bottom, everyone would just buy the B7!


All 2017 LG OLEDs use the same LG SoC unlike in 2016.
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post #52 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
All 2017 LG OLEDs use the same LG SoC unlike in 2016.
From a friend, who calibrates the LGs, he says the power supplies are a different matter. Higher up the ladder, the better quality, and more power for the PS.
So, if no difference - COSTCO with the extra warranty would be the best choice?

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post #53 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Despite all the LG sets having the same panel, the same can't be said for the electronics. If there wasn't a difference from top to bottom, everyone would just buy the B7!
hasn't LG itself claimed that PQ is equal on all models?

imo, if the company makes that claim, you should look at the cheapest one(if they are telling the truth, no difference. if not, then they shouldn't be making claims that aren't true)

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post #54 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 03:56 PM
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hasn't LG itself claimed that PQ is equal on all models?

imo, if the company makes that claim, you should look at the cheapest one(if they are telling the truth, no difference. if not, then they shouldn't be making claims that aren't true)
Specs are identical - that is all LG is going to state.

They put engineering time and $$$s into differentiating the linup based on sound as well as aesthetics. While it is possible to add cost and engineeribg effort to improve LED/LCDs based on different panels and backlights, since 99% of WOLEDs picture quality is based on the WOLED panel itself, differentiating picture quality essentially amounts to investing engineeribg $$$s to 'dumb down' performance.

Spend more, degrade the picture quality of the highest-volume sellers of your nascent best-ever TV technology - why the hell would LG want to do that?

Every entry-level B/C7P WOLED TV LG sells this year is an advertisement for the superiority of the technology. LG is intelligently focusing on a strategy of differentiating the product lineup based on non-PQ characteristics so that the superiority of their WOLED technology gets advertised as widely and as clearly as possible... (oh, and it's also less costly for them to do so ).
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post #55 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
All TV's were 65inches except the 30inch Reference monitor. Having them all be 65 inches meant you can stand back at the same distance form set to set to get a better apples to apples for performance.
I did notice that they were not at the same height though (and lets not forget that the Sony OLED TV was bezelless as well as tilted).
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post #56 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
Because PQ is homogenized across all 5 (6?) models?
So they used the cheapest LG OLED TV and most expensive Panasonic OLED TV though it does not really matter much since all those LGs have the same PQ and those Panasonics also have the same PQ. It looks to me like they took what they could get, no other logic behind that..
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post #57 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 06:22 PM
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Now please don't rip me because I am truly a novice in this area.

This is regarding HDR which LG won

Didn't the calibrators tune all the sets down to 200 nits? Wouldn't this stifle a set like the Z9D which can hit around 1600 nits vs LG's around 700 or so?

Or did I miss something or don't understand something?

I am considering buy either the Z9D or an A1E and just trying to learn and understand.


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post #58 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Now please don't rip me because I am truly a novice in this area.

This is regarding HDR which LG won

Didn't the calibrators tune all the sets down to 200 nits?
Wouldn't this stifle a set like the Z9D which can hit around 1600 nits vs LG's around 700 or so?

Or did I miss something or don't understand something?

I am considering buy either the Z9D or an A1E and just trying to learn and understand.


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200 nits would be for the SDR calibration.

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post #59 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Trolling? I was recapping.

Sorry the results offend you?

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Lol again with Arrival...I think the studios are gonna owe him royalties!
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post #60 of 474 Old 08-13-2017, 06:50 PM
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Lol again with Arrival...I think the studios are gonna owe him royalties!
I just saw he added that Arrival bit to his reply. Funny because I already own it

It's not my fault his LG isn't properly calibrated. Maybe if he knew what he was doing rather then just spending money thinking it gives him knowledge without any work he wouldn't make a fool of himself.

"But I started the W7 owner thread so don't question me!!"

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