DVI board issues with Panny 6? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 118 Old 04-23-2004, 02:42 AM
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The card does 1366 which is not divisble by 8 hence the foldover due to the convention adopted by many graphics card manufacturers. You would need to create a custom resolution using the frequencies listed in the manual for the DVI card and powerstrip.

from entech aka PS:

The reason is that graphics cards almost invariably do horizontal timing in terms of character clocks of 8 pixels, rather than in terms of individual pixels - a legacy of the original Motorola 6845 CRT controller. At the hardware register level, 848x480 is actually programmed as 106 character clocks x 480 lines - 106 characters of 8 pixels each equals 848 total pixels. Likewise, 1366 pixels isn't possible - the closest possible values are 1368 (171 character clocks) or 1360 (170 character clocks).

Hence a horizontal resolution that isn't evenly divisible by an 8 pixel character clock is not possible on display hardware that claims compatibility with VGA (and pre-VGA) standards. You either live with a couple of pixels of overscan, or settle for a couple of pixels blank border.

One new and notable, albeit pricey, exception to this horizontal timing rule is Matrox's new Parhelia and P-series, which uses pixels rather than character clocks to generate horizontal timings.

Another exception is the old Kyro 2 - still used on special purpose graphics cards from some manufacturers. The Kyro 3 is also capable of pixel-perfect resolutions at the hardware level, but the drivers do not allow this.
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post #92 of 118 Old 04-23-2004, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rscott4563
It does sound like it maybe only putting out 1360x768 or something similar, is it definitely ~10 pixels or is it less, 1360 is the nearest multiple of 8 and so this maybe all it can get from a graphics card (though I think the Matrox cards can do non divisible by 8 resolutions?), the Fujitsu P50 has this same issue of only displaying 1360x768. If this is the problem then you will be getting 1:1 just with a few missing pixels each side.
I'll have to do a careful count (I just put the DVI card in last night). However, there are ~10 black pixel columns on each side, not 10 total. That gives a resolution of ~1346 x 768. Why would that happen?
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post #93 of 118 Old 04-23-2004, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I right in the assumption that the DVI blade won't accept a 50Hz signal?
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post #94 of 118 Old 04-25-2004, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nuke
...
Modeline................ "1366x768" 87.430 1366 1404 1588 1808 768 771 777 806 -hsync -vsync
...
Display adapter
Adapter description......... RADEON 9600 SERIES
Adapter device ID........... 0x41521002
Display settings............ 1366x768, 32bpp
[/b]
Great, thanks. A couple interesting things - the 87.43Mhz dot clock is beyond what the manual lists in its specs (86.75). Also the above seems to suggest that you got your radeon 9600 to accept the 1366x768 resolution (not divisible by 8). Is that true?

I reworked my powerstrip timings to exactly match the vertical timings from this, and to best match the horizontal timings given a 1368 width instead of the 1366. (Best match while staying under the published max. horizontal/vertical frequencies). I got:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1368x768=1368,38,184,218,768,3,6,29,87394,2304

Generic timing details for 1368x768:
HFP=38 HSW=184 HBP=218 kHz=48 VFP=3 VSW=6 VBP=29 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1368x768" 87.394 1368 1406 1590 1808 768 771 777 806 +hsync +vsync

Works the same for me as before, where I have to adjust the hpos&hsize from the panny after activating this config.
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post #95 of 118 Old 04-30-2004, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snuci
Thank you Nuke.

I've just enquired as to what Panasonic Canada is going to do about upgrading the previous board that does NOT support the resolutions that are described in the manual.

Santo
An update:

Panasonic Canada replaced my DVI board with no hassles at all and now it does everything that it should including native 1366x768. Panasoonic customer support is the best. I won't hesitate to buy from them again.

Santo
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post #96 of 118 Old 04-30-2004, 07:16 PM
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That's great news Snuci!!! :D

Dumb question...

Could Snuci's (and perhaps others') experience(s) mean that the new (corrected) version of the DVI Blade works as expected in all regards? I'm hoping so.

Sorry if you posted this earlier snuci, but what are you using to send the signal to the blade (what Video Card/Processor/DVI-enabled DVD Player/etc.)?

Thanks!
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post #97 of 118 Old 04-30-2004, 07:55 PM
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I'm using an ATI Radeon 9700 Pro on Windows XP. It's in a TH-50PHD6UY so it's doing 1366x768 but I'm not sure how it would work with 852x480 which is documented to be there in the manual but this card does not report that resolution. I haven't had a chance to try 1360x765 yet (due to the divisible by 8 requirement of the ATI cards). It is a little blurry compared to 1024x768 which I find really sharp but it looks as good as I could get it with Powerstrip. I played with Powerstrip for hours!

The Radeon, even with a problem with 1366x 768 as opposed to 1368x768 still takes it and displays 1366x768 and reports it. In the case of BCCs posting of the old versions EDID info, this new one does 32 bpp as opposed to the 16 bpp that the old one reports (if that was not a setup oversight). It also correctly reports it's version as a "TY-42TM6D", not a "TY-42TM4D".

I'm going to blow the PC away and scrape off all my tweaking to see how it looks. The ATI might look better with the 1360x765 res. Back to more playing :)

Hope this helps,
Santo
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post #98 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 05:07 AM
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Snuci

Could you please let us know if you now have any control over the input refresh rates the DVI card will now accept or is it still a case of 60Hz only?

I've been in touch with Silicon Image and they have confirmed that it is not the SiI169 DVI receiver chip which is limiting the input rates and that it is Panasonic that have imposed this limitation, maybe thats been corrected with your new version??
Specifically interested in whether it will accept 48Hz and 50Hz signals at 136x by 768 with 1:1 mapping??

Thanks

Ryan
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post #99 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 05:45 AM
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Santo

Do you know the serial number or the build date of the last one. It would be reported in the EDID like nuke's post.

Ryan

Using powerstrip you set the horizontal and vertical refresh rates together with the pixel clock. But the rates you feed from the card need to match the input frequencies the DVI expects else it does not give a signal.
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post #100 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 06:05 AM
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salvador

Not too sure what your getting at?

I know how to setup powerstrip to send any combination resolution/refresh rate etc..

What I'm asking is does Snuci's new DVI terminal board now accept vertical refresh rates other than 60Hz?

I know that European Panasonic series 6 displays have internal frame buffers of 48/50/60Hz and will display these without internal conversion at 1366 by 768 with 1:1 mapping (I've been told that US models may only have a 60Hz internal frame buffer but don't know if this is true?), this is great as it allows 24fps and 25fps(Pal) film to be shown at 2:2 and NTSC video to be shown with no judder, but this is only possible via analogue VGA input, when using the DVI input board you are limited to a 60Hz input at 1366 by 768, this is obviously not good, no 48Hz (24fps 2:2 film) and Pal material at 50Hz has to be converted to 60Hz which introduces judder.

At first it was thought that this was a hardware limitation of the Silicon Image Panel Link Chip used (SiI169), but after discussion with Silicon Image, it has been found that this is not the case and so the limitation is Panasonic related, now as we already know the screen will display 48/50/60Hz correctly the fault must lie with the firmware or EDID of the DVI board? So its possible it can be fixed and my question is has this been fixed on Snuci's new board??

Cheers

Ryan
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post #101 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snuci
It is a little blurry compared to 1024x768 which I find really sharp but it looks as good as I could get it with Powerstrip.
Your video card might be reporting 1366x768, but Panny is processing the signal somehow if it is not as sharp as a tack. I would think that you should be able to put your nose up to a Windows icon and be impressed by the dot for dot image. I wonder what is going on with these DVI blades? I was about to buy a 50HD6UY to replace my Pio 503, but I want to use one blade for my HTPC. With the Pio 503 and its DVI port, the PC Desktop is amazing. Of course, I want the black levels of the Panny and HDCP, so I'm torn right now. FWIW, Pio's new models' HDMI ports don't work well with a PC either :( Howard
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post #102 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rscott4563
Could you please let us know if you now have any control over the input refresh rates the DVI card will now accept or is it still a case of 60Hz only?
I am normally one who tries to get the highest refresh rate possible out of a monitor but this monitor looks great at 60Hz and you're usually far enough away that the flicker shouldn't even be noticeable.

The EDID information tells Windows that the card does 60 Hz, you don't have any other choice. My EDID information is exactly the same as the 2004 Week 9 version posted above. That is the only way I know the build date because they simply replaced the card and the build date is on the new box. There are no other markings on the card itself like revision numbers or anything that I could see.

Plasman... STOP THE PRESSES!!!!

This monitor looks stunning after some "calibration"! I mean, it looks better then 1024x768 now, BIG TIME!

Steps I used to calibrate the monitor for HTPC with a ATI Radeon 9700 Pro

1. Get the latest version of the DVI card.
2. Install and make sure that Windows comes up at 1366x768 resolution. It should do it anyway because that is what the card reports and that's what ATI sticks with. NOTE: It will look blurry and shifted to the right. This is okay. You'll have to adjust with the "Picture Pos./Size" button on the remote later.
3. Download, install and run the Nokia Monitor Test program. You can get it at http://www.idg.pl/ftp/download/pc_2678/Ntest2.exe
4. Once in the program, move your mouse over the buttons and look for the "Readability" icon and press it. You will see the word "FULLSCREEN" repeated throughout the screen. You will notice close up that it's a little blurry.
5. On the remote, press the "Picture Pos./Size" button. Adjust the H-SIZE slightly bigger or smaller until everything is clearly legible. It will look sharp as a tack and there's not mistake when you have it perfect.
6. Press ESC to exit that screen and then find and enter the "Geometry" page. Adjust the H-POS to your liking. There is a dotted line around the screen that shows you exactly where the edge is. The top and bottom will fit perfectly but the sides willl be slightly cut off. This is okay. It's better to have the sides slightly cut off then have it blurry.
7. Once you do this, you are all set. Play around with some of the other screens if you like but exit the program and you are done.

Hope this helps,
Santo
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post #103 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by snuci
I am normally one who tries to get the highest refresh rate possible out of a monitor but this monitor looks great at 60Hz and you're usually far enough away that the flicker shouldn't even be noticeable.

Santo
Santo

As you will see from my previous posts, its not a higer refresh rate to reduce flicker which I am interested in, I am after native resolution at 48Hz 2:2 24fps (NTSC) and 50Hz 2:2 25fps (PAL) through the DVI input to avoid any frame rate conversion.

With PC use and NTSC video the 60Hz rate is great and will do native resolution no problem, but for film from a HTPC or scaler its definitely not ideal, would you be able to try and see if you can get the DVI board to accept these refresh rates at native resolution??

Cheers

Ryan
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post #104 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 08:02 AM
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Actually just thinking about it do you know if your plasma can accept a 48Hz and 50Hz without conversion to 60Hz via an analogue connection?
You can test whether frame rate conversion is happening with some judder testing software.
As I've been told that the US and so possibly Canadian Panasonics only have 60Hz internal frame buffers?

Ryan
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post #105 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 08:14 AM
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Snuci, very glad you got it looking great. My only question is why any adjustment is needed for dots to align in a digital image? Your procedure sounds like one that would be necessary for an anolog signal and I wonder if you are improving at all on the VGA port? I keep thinking about LCD screens with DVI ports - no adjustment ever needed there....
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post #106 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 08:21 AM
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Good point I'd not really thought of that before, why is it that my 1280x1024 LCD monitor doesnt allow any position adjustment when using DVI and is always pixel perfect, yet plasma's when sent native resolution via DVI still allow adjustment and normally need it to get 1:1 mapping??
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post #107 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 08:27 AM
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With the 42" the 1024 x 768 is not a 16:9 AR the recalibation with the 1368 x 768 signal probably necesitated the calibration. But is Ntest a 16:9 AR test? The geometry test looked better is 4:3 AR.

Ryan:

I now see what you are asking. All I see is 60 Hz available for the vertical refresh rate; the pixel clock varies 27 to 87.
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post #108 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rscott4563
...yet plasma's when sent native resolution via DVI still allow adjustment and normally need it to get 1:1 mapping??
You can't say "plasmas" generically. The Pio 503 with 5002 card has a DVI port that is totally plug and play at 1280x768 - the NR of the panel. They even obtained Windows WHQL certification. There are no adjustments available. I was able to adjust the VGA port to look almost as good, but the DVI port is just like my LCD's - a thing of beauty.

What seems to be going on with the new generation of plasmas is that the HDCP capability is making everything get dumbed down to a compatible video resolution - therefore dot for dot can only be approximated. An analog conversion must be going on somewhere.

The soon to be released Pio 504CMX may be different. Because it is a commercial version, there is a regular old DVI port (non HDCP) on the panel itself and hopefully this will work like the one on the 503CMX. The card slot can then be used for aftermarket cards to provide HDCP inputs. The rub here is that only one company, Aurora has committed to making an HDCP card and we don't know if they will make an inexpensive one with 2 HDCP/HDMI ports that fit the new slot form factor. So far, Aurora has geared their cards to specialty uses such as multi-plasma displays, audio timing compensation, various tuners, etc.
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post #109 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 01:13 PM
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Ryan,

I'm not sure I can even do it on the panel as it is NTSC. I'd be happy to test if I you could tell me how.

Plasman,

I think this needs adjustment because the ATI can't handle the 1366 pixel width so the output it's providing is slightly off and the panel is scaling it. When you expand it, you're hitting 1368 or so and it becomes pixel perfect with some pixels cut off. I don't think it's the panel or the card, I think it's the ATI card.

Hope this helps,
Santo
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post #110 of 118 Old 05-01-2004, 02:02 PM
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Hi Santo

To check what your displays internal frame buffers are, use the analogue VGA input and setup the screen as normal using your HTPC and Powerstrip to get 1:1 at 60Hz then run some judder test software such as this to check that there is no frame rate conversion going on, the thread relating to this software and testing for judder is here, there definitely shouldn't be any when using 60Hz. Then its simply a case of setting your HTPC to different refresh rates (48Hz and 50Hz, though you could also try 72Hz, 75Hz and 100Hz as well), re-adjusting to get 1:1 and then trying the judder test again, when the movement is smooth then the refresh rate is being displayed as it is without conversion, if its juddery, stutters or misses frames then its converting (probably to 60Hz).

If your display acts the same way as the European model then you will find that at 48/50/60Hz you get perfect unconverted judder free picture.

To check if your DVI input will take 48Hz or 50Hz it will be a case of using your advanced graphics card settings and powerstrip to try and get the display to sync to a signal at native resolution (1366 or 1368 what ever works) and then try diffferent settings of vertical refresh rates and pixel clocks etc... Trial and error I suppose....

Theres a couple of threads here and here related to the refresh rate issues

If you could help it would be greatly appreciated, also if anyone else has a series 6 Panasonic display with DVI and a iScanHD then this could also be used to test very easily...

Thanks again

Ryan :D
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post #111 of 118 Old 05-02-2004, 09:07 AM
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Interesting my card shows as Ty-42TM4d despite it being a M6D card. Ryan I will test it when i can get the right card. I will let you know what happens.
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post #112 of 118 Old 07-10-2004, 10:30 AM
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OK, You guys are waay over my head, but I gotta ask a basic, stupid Q:
I'm getting the WD6UY, (42"), since this is ED only, is buying the DVI card a waste, since my native is only 480p? I will be using Voom and Bravo D2 only, so I have HD inputs going in. Is it better to just use component?
Thanx,
Joel
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post #113 of 118 Old 08-03-2004, 08:29 AM
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I'm with rscott4563. I live downunder and will be buying a plasma soon, I really want to know if 50Hz can be attained using DVI (or even HDMI). Are there any plasmas available with DVI blades that allow 50Hz and can anyone supply some links or info. I was set on the Panny for it's black levels but now i'm not so sure.
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post #114 of 118 Old 08-04-2004, 02:42 AM
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I don't have a 480 panel but the one item I noticed shadow detail improve on the 768 panel vs component. IMO this would interpolate to the 480.

As far as 50Hz on the blades so far they have not specified it with 6D card. T. Wiz. may know more.
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post #115 of 118 Old 08-25-2004, 09:19 PM
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wanted to bump up this thread with great info for new users
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post #116 of 118 Old 08-25-2004, 09:53 PM
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With all this info I still have yet to see a single picture of a Panny 6UY outputting an HTPC signal via DVI.

When running 1368x768 are the two lost pixels on the side noticeable? How is the overall image quality?

If you have it working, please post some images!


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post #117 of 118 Old 01-05-2005, 07:01 AM
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I don't understand this issue as well as most, but after looking at another thread describing how to build custom cables using CAT5, and what pins in the VGA connector to use, I got to thinking.

Is there a specific pin/connection in the DVI plug associated with the EDID data? If so, could this pin/connection be removed/blocked, thus eliminating the problem with the newer graphics cards defaulting to the EDID data and allow the use of manually inputted resolutions? Seems like it might be easier to do this (if feasible) rather than reprogramming the chip in the DVI blade.

Shawn
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post #118 of 118 Old 01-05-2005, 07:20 PM
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Might be pin 16

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