Maximizing PQ on a $2500 plasma display - tweaking the Akai PDP4294 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSC
Elvis, what connection are you using for these settings ?
S-Video and Component 1 (with a 480i signal).
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and is there a way to reset the settings back to the factory settings ??
Manually - setting by setting; that's the only way. :(
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Originally posted by franz-man
If we paid for ISF calibration does the technician get into this menu system and do what we are doing?
Probably, but ISF focuses on proper grayscale setup, true 6500K white balance and true color levels and balance; there's no guarantee that the posterization issue will be resolved in the process. If anyone has $400-500 to throw at this, s/he could then post all the values that were changed, and we'd all benefit. (There would probably still be minor variations from one set to another, due to hardware calibration settings, but we'd all still be a lot closer...)

Alternatively, we could split the cost... if 10 people want to send me $40 (or 20 people x $20), I could have mine calibrated and post the settings! ;)
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By the way...how far is everyone watching from? I have couch 10ft from panel. If I sit at kitchen table (another 8 feet) these issues go away.
~14' here. A few feet closer and PQ issues are much more noticeable.
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post #92 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 10:52 AM
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Again, many many thanks to elvis for all the t&e

I think what the rest of us need to do is not just wait for elvis to complete this journey by himself but help him and contribute by saying what does and does not work.

With that said, with all the improvement to 480i (svid and composite, as well as component), it still does not have the pq of 480p, 720p, or 1080i in my opinion.

If we can do for progressive what elvis has done for interlaced (480i), this will be amazing.

My experience with shadow detail has been that it has improved when I turn yoffset (or Goffset) in menu 9 to about 40 and then lower contrast to about 37-42 and turn brightness to about 62-64

Remember that changes to menu 9 does not affect 480i (svid and composite) at ALL, so do not make the changes that elvis recommended (sorry elvis) for this A/D menu or you will get a messed up 480p, 1080i and 720p picture. Set it back to default and then try making the above changes that I stated above and post your results.

This is actually puzzling to me that the defaults for the samsung on menu 9 would cause such abnormal results for the akai. Is it just me?
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post #93 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 11:16 AM
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do you have to manually set everything back to the default settings, or can you do it automatically some how?
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post #94 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by superflysocal
I think what the rest of us need to do is not just wait for elvis to complete this journey by himself but help him and contribute by saying what does and does not work.
Agreed! That would be MOST helpful and appreciated!
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Remember that changes to menu 9 does not affect 480i (svid and composite) at ALL, so do not make the changes that elvis recommended (sorry elvis) for this A/D menu or you will get a messed up 480p, 1080i and 720p picture.
No problem! That's a big, bold, blanket statement, though, and I'm not sure it's true (at least not for *all* Menu 9 settings)... this *is* a digital display, so, in theory, *all* analog inputs require conversion to digital. IIRC, changing those settings had a realtime, visible effect on the PQ, but I could be wrong. I'll re-verify and amend the initial posts as necessary.
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post #95 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:01 PM
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yes, it is a bold statement..i was nervous even posting it for i don't want to give out false info

if anyone proves me wrong, i will gladly edit my post

but i do think the heading of the menus are labelled in such a way for a reason (TV-comp, PC-comp, all, etc.).. it tells what the menu affect what inputs. Just my opinion.
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post #96 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A bit of good news - I've stumbled upon something that should prove VERY helpful...

I have several "Actor" wish lists set up on TiVo. One of them is for Johnny Depp (who I think is the quintessential actor of our generation.) Well, the other night, TiVo recorded a movie called "Dead Man" that was on IFC. It's an independent Jim Jarmusch film set in the old west; it's amazingly star-studded, really well done, AND it's black & white! Better still, prior to the start of the film, there's a guy talking about the movie (relating some interesting tidbits, etc.) This is also shot in black and white, AND the guy is standing in front of a background that is black around the edges, gradiated to a light gray in the center! The background, of course, is horribly, awfully posterized, but what better signal could I possibly find for not only calibrating grayscale, but also figuring out which setting(s) effect posterization?!?! I've saved this program "Until I Delete".
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post #97 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It occurred to me that the lousy user settings make service menu tweaking A LOT more difficult... the display resets to these crappy defaults every time you enter the service menu, so you end up trying to gauge the effectiveness of the s.m. adjustments being made with the basic brightness/contrast color settings set badly. AND you're forced to readjust them every damn time you EXIT the s.m... Well, this *can* be addressed - let's tweak some of the s.m. settings to *make* the default user settings GOOD.

I plan to start by (once again) resetting all s.m. values to Samsung defaults. Then I'll adjust brightness and contrast values in the Main VCD (Menu 2) so that the default contrast and brightness (in the user settings) don't need to be adjusted. Sharpness is less obvious (and in general, I don't see much difference on my set when I adjust this setting in the user settings menu) so I may have trouble with this one (I''m thinking maybe the comb filter settings may be related to this, but it'd be nice if we could find a real video expert to give us some general guidance about menu sections, applicability/correspondence to aspects of PQ, etc.) Color level and balance (tint) should be pretty straightforward as well. The goal here is to adjust the s.m. values such that the default user settings are optimal. Once we know which settings to adjust and what values to set them to, we publish these, and *everyone* makes these adjustments and then doesn't mess with them any further.

Once this is done, here's how I intend to proceed (I'm posting this in case anyone else wants to help do this)...

Elvis's Service Menu Documentation Procedure[list=1][*]Go in to each menu and adjust the first setting to it's minimum value[*]Power off the display to exit the service menu[*]Power the display back on (no need to reset user settings now!) and see what effect that one, single adjustment had.[*]Make a note of it. Also note whether the effect of that adjustment while in the service menu was MORE dramatic, less dramatic or about the same as what you see once you exit out of the service menu.[*]If you're not certain of the effect... Go back in to the s.m., change that setting to its maximum value, power off to exit s.m., power back up and check again. If there's still no discernable difference, write down, "NVE" (No Visible Effect)[*]If the effect is obvious, try to find the optimal setting and write it down[*]Set it to its original value, proceed to the next setting and repeat the steps above.[/list=1]

DON'T FORGET that some settings have a much more dramatic effect while in the s.m. (for example, G GAMMA) then they do when you exit it. Conversely, some settings appear to have NO EFFECT while in the s.m., but are quite dramatic when you exit it. DO NOT RELY on what you see while you're in the s.m. unless/until you have verified that the effect while IN the s.m. is the same as the effect once you EXIT the s.m.

ALSO NOTE that we need to do this based on the factory default settings as published in the Samsung service manual. After we've documented the effect(s) of each setting, THEN we can build good settings on top of good settings to create our final, ultimate settings.

One last note... We'll have to do this separately for 480i, 480p, HDTV, VGA and DVI. It's a big, big task - I hope you'll help me "divide and conquer", but our first step has to be making the default user settings GOOD by adjusting s.m. values.
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post #98 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:44 PM
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Actually, you may be able to do that yourself... I had an idea, if you want to give this a try...
Reset all s.m. values to (Samsung manual) factory defaults, THEN exit s.m. (power off set) and bring s.m. up again. Go in to Options (Menu 12) and see if you can set "DNIe Through" to "1". Let me know if this works...
no no option only "0" demo no change 0 or 1 . will go to cc and take my learning remote, post back. jj
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post #99 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:46 PM
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Elvis,

When i change any sm tweaks and turn the tv back on, yes, it defaults to "STANDARD" picture mode. But a couple of "p. mode" button presses on the remote to "CUSTOM" and i am back to my user settings. does your tv not do this? does going to custom mode put you back at factory default "custom"?
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post #100 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 12:49 PM
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actually we should try to reset all DNIE defaults to akai factory default to see if we can turn dnie through to 1
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post #101 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 01:31 PM
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Ok I picked one up from Costco last night after work. I got it home and set it up and made all of Elvis' SM adjustments. I watched both DVD at 480i from my Panasonic DVD player and SDTV from my Dish Network 501 receiver.

I hooked up the S-Vid from the receiver to the Akai and the composite to my 36 inch Sony Wega tube tv which is a few years old. I wanted to be able to do a side by side comparison. While the picture was good on the Akai, the colors and skin tone seemed more realistic on the Sony. I got about the same results from DVD using component cables for the Akai and S-Vid for the Sony.

I don't have an HD source yet; I am waiting for the Dish Network 921.

I havnt had time yet to adjust any settings. I just thought I would let others know that using Elvis' adjustments give what I would consider a GOOD picture but it doesnt match my tube TV. I hope that further adjustments can be made to improve the picture quality.
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post #102 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 02:26 PM
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No such luck no button on remote.This DNIE thing is only accessed through menu listed mode-adjust-color tone-DNie. Chose Dnie sub menue then lists on-off-demo.I cannot chose "1" in service menue Dnie pass through. Can toggle 1 or 2 in Dnie demo but has no effect at all. I set everything in dnie to "0" wow dont do that horriable. O well keep trying, jojo
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post #103 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 02:33 PM
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jd in my very limited experience with plasma and 40 years watching CRT , I dont think any plasma can 'look' as good as the best CRT.? jojo
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post #104 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 03:07 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Welcome to the forum, Lisa. You can connect your D-TV receiver directly to the S-video input of this set. NOTE, however, that due to the posterization problems with this set, compression artifacts from sat TV are exaggerated.

I was going to ask the same thing. I have a DVD recorder that does have inputs, firewire, component, Svid and composite. I too was thinking about running all feeds through this into the AKAi via my Prog Scan out on the DVD. Would running the feeds through the recorder then into the Akai produce better results than going Svid form my DISH reciever? I ahven't gotten my screen yet, need to wait until Friday to pick mine up. Better still be some by then. I want to save the extra $200.

Andre
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post #105 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 03:11 PM
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I will ask a question again to see if I get a response...

Anyone live in Houston, TX that bought the Akai so a comparison viewing can be made...PM me if you are shy.

-John
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post #106 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 03:28 PM
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what are the normal settings for the Akai (how it comes when you buy it) ??
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post #107 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 04:05 PM
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The next person who just bought this set, before changing all the dnie settings, just change the dnie through setting in the options menu of the SM to "1" and see what kind of results you get. Most of us that have changed the dnie settings and can't change that option anymore...that may be a dnie cancel or pass through (thus disabling dnie)
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post #108 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 04:16 PM
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What about just going to Costco and checking it out through there menu system? No sales people to hassle you there....
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post #109 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 04:55 PM
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the costco here in alhambra has moved it right to the front door,playing nemo through sony pscan and super sound system, it`s atop a stack of about 25 new ones in their boxes.draws huge crowds , jj
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post #110 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 05:09 PM
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can somebody post there original factory setting`s for sub bright + sub cont, thanks,jj
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post #111 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I got to thinking about this a bit more...
Quote:
Originally posted by superflysocal
When i change any sm tweaks and turn the tv back on, yes, it defaults to "STANDARD" picture mode. But a couple of "p. mode" button presses on the remote to "CUSTOM" and i am back to my user settings.
The thing is, the set doesn't default to "Standard" when you exit the s.m. & turn the set back on... it defaults to "Standard" when you *enter* the s.m. That leaves you trying to gauge the effect of this or that adjustment while viewing the picture with crappy user settings - way too much contrast, too little brightness, too much sharpness and too much color saturation!

You do what you want, but I'm fixing this before I do any more tweaking...
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post #112 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 10:06 PM
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Yes but like you said, it is too variable as to if the changes made are overemphasized, underemphasized, or even noticed live at all during the sm mode vs. after you exit the sm mode and turn on back the tv.

your call

my thoughts are that get the posteriztion at a minimum and then recalibrate brightness and contrast with calibration disc.
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post #113 of 412 Old 01-21-2004, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by superflysocal
Yes but like you said, it is too variable as to if the changes made are overemphasized, underemphasized, or even noticed live at all during the sm mode vs. after you exit the sm mode and turn on back the tv.
That's true for some of the settings, yes. But others (and for all I know possibly the majority of them) you get to see the actual change in real time.
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my thoughts are that get the posteriztion at a minimum and then recalibrate brightness and contrast with calibration disc.
When I was tweaking the DNIe settings, there was one setting that, as I adjusted it, posterization visibly decreased. The effect was the same even after I exited the s.m. - that's how I realized that I'd made a significant improvement...

My thinking is, why deal with bad color/contrast/brightness settings while you're tweaking if you don't have to?

The thing is, though, if you feel a particular attachment to your "custom" color settings, there's no reason why you can't do it your way and I, mine. The end result should basically be the same.
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post #114 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 12:16 AM
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Just got this thing from Costco and immediately upon plugging it in, I was horrified to notice one thing: a buzzing sound emanating from the back right corner! is this normal? Id appreciate info on how quiet this set is from other owners. Mine is not AT ALL quiet. bzzzzzzzz. The speakers are NOT plugged in. Its driving me crazy and seems to be a deal breaker before I even get to PQ issues.

I have a bad feeling about these posterization issues too. I watch most stuff off a sciatl 8000 that records shows Tivostyle. no HD signal. Is the artifacting going to be bad?

be seeing you,
GreenMonk
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post #115 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 01:18 AM
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ok, please tell me to have faith on adjusting PQ. Just of the box to try it out, I watch a bit of West Wing on plain video hookup in wide aspect. A shot had a closeup with 2/3 of the screen filled the wall behind the figure, and the wall was a total smear of color gradients and very out of focus and digital looking. OK, I know I need to go cable shopping, but is it gonna get A LOT better? I'm trying to gauge my expectations.

and still with the buzzing. help.

be seeing you,
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post #116 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 04:23 AM
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If anyone needs the power on and off discrete codes for the Akai, I have them.
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post #117 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 04:23 AM
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If anyone needs the power on and off discrete codes for the Akai, I have them.
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post #118 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 06:00 AM
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Are the discrete codes different then the code to get into service menu??
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post #119 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 06:18 AM
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this code is if you have a Pronto or remote that you can program IR codes into.
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post #120 of 412 Old 01-22-2004, 07:06 AM
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can somebody post there original factory setting`s for sub bright + sub cont, thanks,j
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