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OLED Technology and Flat Panels General > NEC 42XM2 - Initial impressions
Ken Ross's Avatar Ken Ross 05:34 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
When reality contradicts theory... on the next Geraldo. :D

You may be right, Ken. Have you compared the two with really difficult scenes (with very bright-to-very dark gradients?)
Yup. I've got a mini DV tape I shot that clearly shows banding on the old 42" ED panel and is therefore an easy "benchmark". The same banding shows up with the 10 bit ED panel. Don't get me wrong, both have fantastic pictures, but the effect of these extra bits is lost on me. I've seen the same effect on the new Pannys.

jcruse's Avatar jcruse 05:38 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Not there any more. It may have gone away the same night, or the next day or the day after - I don't know for sure, but it's definitely not there, so I'm not sure this is a HUGE deal... just something to be cognizant of (and try to avoid.)
Sorry Elvis, but that is not encouraging at all...was the menu visible during the movie itself? (perhaps during the moonlight scenes?) Plasmas are supposedly a little sensitive to image retention when they're new, but if possible, could you run a couple of checks to see if it still happens and is as noticeable as it was when you first fired it up? A good test would be any DVD with a lot of space shots (Alien, 2001, etc...) to see if a bright Menu logo is visible during the movie itself.

I just can't believe that a plasma that's built with pc connectivity in mind (lots of bright static images...) would have problems with image retention.
mattgoff's Avatar mattgoff 06:19 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
I had the DVD menu up (with the big "PIRATES" logo) for maybe 15 seconds... when I selected "Play", the screen went blank and - THERE IT WAS - a residual of that DAMNED menu! I nearly soiled myself! I thought I'd ruined my new toy!
15 seconds? Please tell me it was longer than that.... Anyone care to comment on whether this is an anomaly of the brand-new phosphors? Shoot, I'm sure we look at the guide for a lot longer, much less Tivo menus. Any sort of console game or computer use would be right out the window.

Now 15 minutes, that's another story.
LZB's Avatar LZB 06:39 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Then there's the picture mode... I prefer "Bright", which is very dynamic and vivid. But you'll probably get blacker blacks with "Theater 1" or "Theater 2".
I would like to point out a few differences I see on my NEC 42VP4, which is an EDTV, as opposed to your findings on your NEC 42XM2, which is a HDTV.

1. I definitely see polarization on my EDTV.
2. Blacks are black. But black details are not perfect. There are times when black areas are just all black, no details at all. As stated before, may be I'm just too picky.

These might be the obvious differences between NEC ED and HD, just try to point these out to potential NEC EDTV buyers. This thread has been generalized as an "all NEC" thread.

A comment on the Bright/Theater 1/Theater 2 mode, I like theater 2 and I think theater 2 will minimize the swirl marks on dark areas while trading off contrast.

And YES, the colors are also the best aspect of my NEC 42VP4 EDTV, that I think we can all generalize as the strength of NEC plasmas.
Bill Ball's Avatar Bill Ball 06:39 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by jcruse
Sorry Elvis, but that is not encouraging at all...was the menu visible during the movie itself? (perhaps during the moonlight scenes?) Plasmas are supposedly a little sensitive to image retention when they're new, but if possible, could you run a couple of checks to see if it still happens and is as noticeable as it was when you first fired it up? A good test would be any DVD with a lot of space shots (Alien, 2001, etc...) to see if a bright Menu logo is visible during the movie itself.

I just can't believe that a plasma that's built with pc connectivity in mind (lots of bright static images...) would have problems with image retention.
I had the same thing happen with my Pio. When it was brand new the service menu bar persisted after about 5-10 minutes of fiddling the first day. I felt like Evlvis. It was gone later that day. Never saw image persistence after that for the month that I had the Pio despite periodic fiddling with the service menu.

Bill
LZB's Avatar LZB 06:43 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by mattgoff
15 seconds? Please tell me it was longer than that.... Anyone care to comment on whether this is an anomaly of the brand-new phosphors? Shoot, I'm sure we look at the guide for a lot longer, much less Tivo menus. Any sort of console game or computer use would be right out the window.

Now 15 minutes, that's another story.
I think the menu says the first 100 hours or something around that number have the most deterioration. So perhaps try not to watch 4:3 and 2.35:1 for the first
few weeks.

I didn't do anything special in the first month and my plasma is all good.

That's not burn in, it's more of a residual image that'll go away in a few seconds when you keep playing the DVD.

Though, I don't play PS2 on my plasma.
ElvisIncognito's Avatar ElvisIncognito 06:57 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Ross
Elvis, this kind of surprised me. In your other posts you emphasized the importance of the "reality" aspect of the picture like I do but yet you put the picture into a "dynamic" mode. I've got that type of setting on the Fujitsu too (they're probably somewhat comparable in their effect) but I find that a less dynamic picture is more 'real' and believable and the dynamic is too hyped and artificial. Have you tried living with a somewhat more subdued setting to see if you can get a more lifelike picture?
But it's not at all hyped nor artificial... This is precisely what I was previously alluding to - this panel's ability to make things appear very rich and vibrant, but without being "over the top". Colors don't bloom (nor do whites), and everyhting looks very, very natural. (Of course, you have to also take into account my preferences for a little less contrast, sharpness and color saturation than what is prescribed by Avia/DVE.)
Quote:
Originally posted by jcruse
Sorry Elvis, but that is not encouraging at all...was the menu visible during the movie itself? (perhaps during the moonlight scenes?)
No, not at all.
Quote:
Plasmas are supposedly a little sensitive to image retention when they're new, but if possible, could you run a couple of checks to see if it still happens and is as noticeable as it was when you first fired it up? A good test would be any DVD with a lot of space shots (Alien, 2001, etc...) to see if a bright Menu logo is visible during the movie itself.
Happy to do it. I have some other requests to follow up on, so I'll give it a try and report back...
Quote:
Originally posted by mattgoff
15 seconds? Please tell me it was longer than that....
Ummm... OK... So, I guess I should share something, here... You know how some people are color blind? Well, I'm "time blind". Two minutes can feel like an hour to me, and two hours can pass in the blink of an eye. (This is one of the ways that ADD manifests itself.) I can say, "remember a couple of weeks ago when..." and it happened yesterday, or I can say, "A couple of days ago..." and it was last month. As a result, my wife fields all questions that begin with, "How long..."

Could it have been more than 15 seconds? Yes. 15 minutes? I really don't think so, but yes, it's possible. I'm pretty certain it was less than a minute. Almost positive it was less than 2.
ElvisIncognito's Avatar ElvisIncognito 06:59 PM 02-09-2004
OK - it's now pretty much dark here (except for the remnants of a GREAT sunset) - time to fire up the NEC and run some tests so I can post some follow-ups. :)
ender21's Avatar ender21 07:05 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:

Ummm... OK... So, I guess I should share something, here... You know how some people are color blind? Well, I'm "time blind". Two minutes can feel like an hour to me, and two hours can pass in the blink of an eye. (This is one of the ways that ADD manifests itself.) I can say, "remember a couple of weeks ago when..." and it happened yesterday, or I can say, "A couple of days ago..." and it was last month. As a result, my wife fields all questions that begin with, "How long..."

Could it have been more than 15 seconds? Yes. 15 minutes? I really don't think so, but yes, it's possible. I'm pretty certain it was less than a minute. Almost positive it was less than 2.
Uh oh. Do you know how long it took you to write that post? Do you have any idea what time is it now? ;)

Quote:

it's now pretty much dark here (except for the remnants of a GREAT sunset)
Aahhh... so *that's* how you tell time. ;)

Rick
rogo's Avatar rogo 07:08 PM 02-09-2004
So the brand new hours are the first time the phosphors have really been whacked with electrons and it's possible that the voltage builds up a bit until the clearing process is fully up to speed.

Then there is the logarithmic decline in phosphor brigtness and my long-stated belief that for the truly paranoid the first 100-200 hours is a time to be gentle, keep the settings really low, fill the screen, stay away from tickers, et al.

Mark
ctishue's Avatar ctishue 07:33 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
OK - it's now pretty much dark here (except for the remnants of a GREAT sunset) - time to fire up the NEC and run some tests so I can post some follow-ups. :)
This could only mean one thing....time to turn off the flash and TAKE PICTURES!!! :D
franz-man's Avatar franz-man 08:48 PM 02-09-2004
Forum members please help. Wife and I checked out ED vs. HD panasonic for first time (most places don't have both) right next to each other with same feed source (most places have them spread apart with different sources/wires, etc.).
Results...
My wife can't stand the screen door affect and sees it up to 8-10 ft away.
So be default she wants the HD.

BUT she also did not like the DVD image on the HD.

Arrrghh!! stupid dilemma.

I told her that the HD NEC might be the best solution but I am not allowed to buy one until we preview.

SO.....is there anyone in the Houston area, Dallas area, Austin area that has bought one of the NEC 42xm2a (or s) models or does anyone know of a show room in the area that can help me out?

Alternative plan - think we can talk NEC into selling in retail stores with a mass email campaign??
MarketingProf's Avatar MarketingProf 10:07 PM 02-09-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Well, I'm "time blind". Two minutes can feel like an hour to me, and two hours can pass in the blink of an eye..."
You are getting very sleepy. Veeeeeeeeeerrrry sleeeeeeeeepy. Watch the watch. Are you sleepy? Yes, you are asleep.

Now, tell me... who are you really? "Elvis"

Elvis who? "The Elvis"

How do you know? "I looked into a 42", 16 x 9, mirror, and ...there I was!"

Are you sure you were not watching Elvis Presley on TV? "No! Definitely not! It was too real to be TV. There was no screen door effect. My black jacket was, well, ... black, not grey. The colors were perfect. No posterization, no pixelization."

Ahhh. But maybe you were watching an NEC plasma tv? "Oh right. Could be. Never thought of that."

See, NEC works in mysterious ways!" "Yes, NEC does work in mysterious ways."

"Ahh, Thankya. Thankya vera much!"
Replevin's Avatar Replevin 01:52 PM 02-10-2004
This does not come with a stand, correct? I didn't think so, but one of the vendors is insisting that it does come with one. Thanks!
brvheart's Avatar brvheart 03:05 PM 02-10-2004
Also, which tilting wall mount is a good choice for this display? Does it accept universal type mounts? Can someone suggest a sturdy, easy to install mount with an option for lateral movement?
mr pink's Avatar mr pink 03:18 PM 02-10-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Replevin
This does not come with a stand, correct? I didn't think so, but one of the vendors is insisting that it does come with one. Thanks!
It does not, but just make the vendor promise to order you one for free if it doesnt come with it!

(then PM me the vendor :) )

- pink
oldskoolboarder's Avatar oldskoolboarder 03:56 PM 02-10-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by wblynch
I was going to suggest Pearl Harbor.

Also try Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
hmm...I bought the Indy boxed set and started to watch the first one on my old 27" via composite on my Denon 2200. I was actually shocked that the picture wasn't that great. Granted I didn't check the 3rd movie yet.

I stopped watching because I was waiting for my Panny 6 UY to arrive. It'll be here tomorrow.
robmarti@tampa's Avatar robmarti@tampa 04:08 PM 02-10-2004
i am about to buy this tv but, the one thing that is holding me back is burn-in, i understand that it is not a problem, but let me tell you how i will use my home theater a lot besides movie. Two hours of XBOX at a time including static image games, and using it for computer like right now. Will i be able to do this or should i go for another tv? if you guys know it can be done without burnin them i will take the plunge.

-robert
franz-man's Avatar franz-man 09:55 PM 02-10-2004
so this is sort of a **bump**

elvis is probably swamped with all the questions and requests.

I called NEC today to get some answers that have been gnawing at me.
1) is the online dealer I like NEC authorized seller
2) what is up with conflicting specs. on web sites
3) is 42VP4 10 or 12 bit processing damnit
4) where can I view one of these babies to help make up my mind.

Customer service was very prompt and awesome to deal with the whole time - thumbs up. Here is what they told me.

1) the online dealer I asked about isn't necessarily on NEC "authorized" list because there isn't an official list...but they are not on Santa's bad list either. So in essence if the dealer hasn't been flagged by NEC we are good to go. He made it clear that NEC errs on the side of the customer to make sure we get our warranty and any rebates. Still want to thank elvis for recommending the call.

2) the specs. on www.plasmasync.com shows conflicting data on the vp4 and mx2. Customer support told me to forget that and check out www.necvisualsystems.com as a trusted source.

3) Trusted source eh?? That was fine by me until we found the vp4 listed as 12 bit processing and he had to check a paper copy on his desk for the "real" specs. where he found that it was in fact the old 10 bit, 256 -16mil etc. So the old saying goes...don't believe what you read. At least I got some resolution on that...

4) He set me up with some NEC direct dealers in the Houston area. He was sure they would have some in stock and available to show. I called 6 places...3 were out of business...2 had moved offices to Louisiana or Dallas and had no show rooms to display the panel and only 1 guy said he has a display floor but no MX2 in sight. He was going to call and find out if he could get one in for me to see. Keep you fingers crossed....

So that was my long winded **bump** in hopes to nudge Elvis into posting some feedback and pictures for us all to drool over.
mooneydriver's Avatar mooneydriver 11:27 PM 02-10-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by franz-man
He set me up with some NEC direct dealers in the Houston area. He was sure they would have some in stock and available to show. I called 6 places...3 were out of business...2 had moved offices to Louisiana or Dallas and had no show rooms to display the panel and only 1 guy said he has a display floor but no MX2 in sight. He was going to call and find out if he could get one in for me to see. Keep you fingers crossed....
I feel your pain. I could not find this plasma locally either. I'll be in Houston next week for business, and I was really excited to see this web site: http://www.avtg.com/nec-plasmasync-4...a-display.htm. I called them up, but no dice ... they don't have it on display and they don't have a showroom anyway.

ElvisIncognito -- perhaps you should have an open house for Californians who are dying to see this thing! We'll bring the tequila, chips and salsa!
grizzledbiker's Avatar grizzledbiker 11:54 PM 02-10-2004
I know I said I'd butt out. But, there are several very official looking items that states that only the 61XM2+ has the 4096 color steps and 68.7 billion colors. One is of course plasmasync and another is the model info spec sheets. 61XM2+ vs. 42VP4 and 42XM2 Also the XM series brochure NEC XM series pamphlet. Yes I agree all three models have gamma-12. But 4096 gradations (or steps) gray scale is not exactly the same thing as 4096 bit color. Gamma-12 does not equal 68.7 billion colors. period. Completely different animals here and has gotten everyone confused. The Panasonic TH-42PHD6UY has 1526 gradations (or steps) gray scale and 1070 million colors.
ElvisIncognito's Avatar ElvisIncognito 01:49 AM 02-11-2004
OK, guys - sorry to have been MIA, but my wife had an accident AND I've been really busy at work. I'll post a few quick follow ups before I can no longer keep my eyes open...

Background noise (e.g. matrix - swirling pixels in dark areas): NEC NR does not seem to effect this at all. Does a great job with ringing, though.

Franz-man: I tried my grayscale test image and could see individual squares except for the first 4 (black) and last 4 (white). I could get this down to 2 or 3 squares by adjusting contrast and brightness, but I didn't care for the resulting image. Excellent contrast performance in general, though - at least 120 out of 128 grayscales displayed!

Black screen in the dark... Definitely *not* black - very dark gray. With lots of tweaking, I could get it very nearly black, but nothing like the inky blacks I've seen from my CRT pj, and the resulting image is far from spectacular. The truly odd thing, though, is that when some part of some object on the screen is black, it is truly a deep, rich, velvety black, but the larger the black area, the more it looks gray.

As for the "Bright" picture mode, I did some more playing around here, and I'm inclined to say that this mode is misnamed. Both the ''Normal" and ''Default" Modes are brighter than the ''Bright' mode....?! I tried the darker modes (Theater 1 and 2) and found that they DEFINITELY increase posterization on high-contrast bright-light-to-darkness scenes (e.g. the angler fish scene in Nemo.) Yes, I have now encountered posterization - even on my preferred settings (where it's definitely minimized.) VERY liveable, and nonexistent most of the tims but the NEC, apparently, is not utterly flawless.

Avia gray ramps look pretty good... As with my gray scale test image, they can be made to look even better, but the resulting PQ is less than optimal.

PC resolutions are great; at native rez (1024 x 768) the image is a bit stretched, as expected.

Image retention is definitely an issue, though not necessarily a BIG one... Behavior here is a bit odd... An image left on screen for more than a minute (I timed it) is visible on subsequent dark screens. But not for long - it goes away within 10 minutes or less.

Having had more time to explore the weaknesses and find its limits, I keep coming back to the same thing - COLOR. Glorious, rich, vivid, lifelike color.

This is still the best picture I've seen on any PDP; no regrets.

Anyone in or near San Diego is welcome to a demo.

Griz- all the 4th gen (XM) panels are 12 bit. 4096 grayscales = 12 bit processing. Absolutely. Positively.
RichB's Avatar RichB 07:23 AM 02-11-2004
ElvisIncognito,

OK. It is crunch time for me.

I was going to order a 61XM2/s today, but now I am concerned. Right now I have a 503CMX. The blacks are not good. When displaying a "black" screen at night, I can see the light emitted on my ceiling.

I have assumed that NEC had better blacks than the 503, but not as good as Panasonic. Would you say that is correct?

I was hoping that posterization would not be a problem on the NEC.
Can you provide any more detail about when you see posterization on the NEC?

-- Rich
grizzledbiker's Avatar grizzledbiker 07:49 AM 02-11-2004
Quote:
Griz- all the 4th gen (XM) panels are 12 bit. 4096 grayscales = 12 bit processing. Absolutely. Positively.
Yep. That is what I'm saying. see above.
Also please see press release: XM series press release does not include 61XM2+ plus model, which is different, enhanced. Please see: 61XM2+ press release
jcruse's Avatar jcruse 08:42 AM 02-11-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito

Image retention is definitely an issue, though not necessarily a BIG one... Behavior here is a bit odd... An image left on screen for more than a minute (I timed it) is visible on subsequent dark screens. But not for long - it goes away within 10 minutes or less.
Thanks Elvis for the update...I know if my 50" panel has this problem it is going to drive me nuts. I believe it was Rogo who stated that this behavior of plasmas calms down after 100-200 hours. I guess plasmas have a "break-in" period too. I should be getting mine in the next few days, so I'll be able to see for myself. I'm tempted to just run a whitescreen for a couple of days to accelerate the break-in, but not sure that's such a wise idea.

Am I correct that assuming a panel that has problems with image retention with be more susceptible to burn-in?
grizzledbiker's Avatar grizzledbiker 08:54 AM 02-11-2004
my concern as well. I'm sure there will be times when I can't always attend to the display. For instance I may be called away while family is watching a dvd. Or I may fall asleep during a movie. Thus the DVD's menu may wind up getting displayed for a hour or more. But doesn't this display have newer anti-burn in techniques? Elvis, your comments?
RichB's Avatar RichB 09:01 AM 02-11-2004
Do not confuse retention with burn-in.

When my 503 was new, it had retention from the windows desktop being displayed for only minutes. This is an afterglow that dissipates.

Burn-in, is the reduction in output capacity of an area that has had too much continuous use. This is permanent.

It is wise to be worried and take precautions, but I do not think the retention problem is one to be alarmed about.

-- Rich
jcruse's Avatar jcruse 09:09 AM 02-11-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by RichB
Do not confuse retention with burn-in.

When my 503 was new, it had retention from the windows desktop being displayed for only minutes. This is an afterglow that dissipates.

Burn-in, is the reduction in output capacity of an area that has had too much continuous use. This is permanent.

It is wise to be worried and take precautions, but I do not think the retention problem is one to be alarmed about.

-- Rich
Rich,

From the way you worded your message, it sounds like your 503 NO LONGER retains images...is that correct?

I know retention and burn-in are different phenomena, but I was asking if there is a RELATIONSHIP between the two (is a plasma that is retention-prone also more burn-in prone?) It seems logical that there would be such a relationship.

Sorry if I'm being anal about this, but I bought into all of the posts on this forum that said burn-in is a non-issue today. I plan on using my plasma a significant amount of time as a pc-monitor and for xbox (along with regular TV and DVD watching), so I'm paranoid about burn-in.
ElvisIncognito's Avatar ElvisIncognito 09:18 AM 02-11-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by RichB
I was going to order a 61XM2/s today, but now I am concerned. Right now I have a 503CMX. The blacks are not good. When displaying a "black" screen at night, I can see the light emitted on my ceiling.
Hm. I never thought to look on my ceiling! I can do that tonight if you can wait...
Quote:
I have assumed that NEC had better blacks than the 503, but not as good as Panasonic. Would you say that is correct?
Yes, I would. If you have a Comp USA nearby, I'd recommend going and checking them out. I'm guessing you'll find the same PDPs that ours has - a Panny 50"HD, Pio 42" and 50" HD, Hitachi 42" HD and a couple others. Adjust the settings yourself if you have to. The Hitachi's PQ most closely resembles the NEC, and to me, the blacks look better than the Panny's (which look crushed to me.) I say this in the context of "Finding Nemo", which is what they were demoing. (I was not there for the scene where Marlin and Dory descend into blackness then see the dangling light from the angler fish.)
Quote:
I was hoping that posterization would not be a problem on the NEC.
Can you provide any more detail about when you see posterization on the NEC?
Only on extreme bright-light-to-total-darkness scenes - the one just mentioned, for example, or the one from early on in The Matrix where they're shining flashlights around in the darkness.

Even then, it's minimal, but the darker you make your screen (i.e. Theater mode, gamma level 2-4, or using the PLE (Peak Light Emission) "Lock" settings in the Options 2 "Long Life" sub-menu), the more noticeable it becomes. Because it's non-existent on the CRT projector, I have a problem with ANY posterization, but I think it's liveable. (Of course, once we complete our remodel and get the projector rehung, I'll have the option of simply using that any time I want to watch a movie with problematic/objectionable PQ elements.)

I really DO think the blacks are better than on your 503; especially when the entire screen is NOT black. When it is, though, they may only be marginally better. I can't say for sure, since I've never seen the Pioneer under these circumstances.
GooglyBear's Avatar GooglyBear 09:33 AM 02-11-2004
over 100 replies.. over 6 pages.. not a single picture

*goes over to a microphone, fires up the karaoke*
Dis-sa-point-ment stops by.. from time-to-time.. to see how I'm doing
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