LCD / Plasma Comparison - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
semigolfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: (SE)MI
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
6th Draft - 8/30/04

The sixth and probably final draft is now shown. I might occasionally update the document - but this
is about as far as I can take the comparison. Changes with this draft include consolidation of some of
the categories, and the an update regarding the soon or just released pricing data - which shows
some very aggressive pricing by LCD vendors in the battleground sizes of 40†to 46â€. Will the plasma
vendors fight back? I’ll leave that to the industry experts.
If some of the comments you read in this thread don’t make much sense don’t blame the poster -
blame me. Those posts were most likely directed at an earlier draft, and I have ultimately decided to
keep the current draft at the top of the thread. If you feel the information contained is inaccurate
please post a reply, and your data and supporting discussion will be considered in the next draft.

Comparison of LCD and Plasma Flat Panel Televisions
(categories are sorted alphabetically - and not in order of importance)
Code:
Category            LCD                  Plasma               Commentary
---------           ----------           --------------       --------------------------

Black Level                                                   Compliments to john doran for
-P Putman           2.2-2.6 nits         0.2-0.8 nits         providing P Putman data.
-HTMag O-IRE(blk)   ?                    0.44 nits**          Interesting thread on (plasma 
                                                              only) black levels and why it’s
- WSR/BruZZi        NEC LCD4000          Panasonic 0.1-0.2    important. Numbers very dependent 
                  Lowest I’ve seen       NEC       0.4-0.5    on brand. Panasonic plasma about
                 0.27-0.72 nits w/       Pioneer   0.7        the lowest whereas NEC appears to 
                 adj. Backlight(BL)                           lead the LCD’s by considerable
                                                              margin.

Brightness                                                    Measurements under different 
- actual            ?                    450-1000 nits        conditions. In essence both
- real world        350-450 nits             ?                have adequate brightness although
- P Putman          150-350 nits         90-110 nits          LCD appears brighter to me and 
- HTMag 100IRE(wht) ?                    43-61 nits**         recently supplied data from most 
- WSR***            160-428 (BL)         53-212 nits          sources appear to confirm.

Burn-in             Possible on some     Somewhat sensitive   With some precautions this is
                    and very long dur    during first 100     really no longer an issue.
                    static images        hours or high        But LCD is much more resistant
                                         contrast settings    for persons uninformed

Color Rendering     Vivid color          Accurate color       Pick your pleasure
                                                              Plasma to me seem to be very 
                                                              accurate red, green, blue and thus
                                                              has very lifelike facial tones.
                                                              Current generation LCD
                                                              are getting closer - but still seem
                                                              to have slightly boosted color and  
                                                              there are a number of models that 
                                                              appear cyan-ish, magnenta-ish, and
                                                              yellow but in either case the LCD’s 
                                                              are quite vibrant - and it’s oh so 
                                                              sweet to have choices.

Contrast Ratios                                               Contrast ratios are critical
- mfg spec          350 - 800:1          800 - 4000:1         but the mfgs. have gone over
-                                      LG going 5000:1        to the dark side on what gets
- ANSI (Putman)     130:1 (avg)          280:1 (avg)          reported. Plasma appears to have
                    170:1 (peak)         400:1 (peak)         a significant advantage on this
- HTMag Contrast                         97-155:1**           spec. If you like movies shot in
        ANSI                             173-268:1**          dark lighting it would be wise
                                                              to demo an LCD with such before
- WSR (Dyn. range)  595                  505                  purchase.
      4x4 chkrbd    586                  475                  HTMag & WSR data is for very few
      9x9 chkrbd    577                  477                  brands/models see note below***
                                      Did I hear 8000?

Cost                                                          Kind of comparing apples to 
     (Diag.In.)   LCD($/sqin)           Plasma($/sqin)        oranges, because LCD’s are
         21         5.30                                      primarily smaller and plasma
         22         6.66                                      bigger (see screen size)
         30         6.00                                      For two units of comparable size
         32         6.86                    5.25              plasma currently is less expensive
         37         6.66                    3.75
         40         7.25                                      A few words of caution here.
         42 (E)                             3.15 (E)          The results presented here are
         42         9.00                    3.60              of a mini-survey of AVS sponsored
         42 (A)                             4.40 (A)          vendors with a lot of rounding.
         45         9.00                                      and averaging - I generally chose
         46         6.45                                      the least expensive of one of the
         50                                 4.75              major of brands could be commercial
         61                                 6.75              (no tuner) old or new models so 
         63                                 5.60              these should be relatively low costs. 
         71                                 x.xx              Take it with a grain of salt. I’m
                                                              just trying to get in the ballpark.
                                                              If you feel the numbers are 
                    (E) - EDTV version                        unjustified they can easily be 
                    (A) - ALIS model                          changed if you provide some proof.

False Contouring             ?                     ?          Not sure what else is involved 
(An artifact common to fixed-pixel displays)                  but this appears to be related to
that produces splotchy, distinct sections                     the magnitude of bit processing.
in what should be gradual gradations                          (10 bit being better than 8bit) and
of color or shadows.  Also referred to                        the algorithms being used by the 
as solarization and posterization                             mfg. (see **** below) or here

Fan Noise    Most don’t require fans     Fans to cool screen  Samsung is one vendor
             (little power=little heat)  Fans to cool ext box making a fan free plasma
             One exception reported                           Noise has been deemed noticeable
                Toshiba 26HL83                                on some plasmas - buyer beware.
                                                              Subjective evaluation (unless 
                                                              someone can find some fan sound 
                                                              level data). Here’s a good thread
                                                              to review concept further.

Fill Factor                                                   I’m counting on KostyaNP to provide
                                                              Some data here

Graininess                                                    I have no idea, from simply store
(Picture Noise)                                               viewing -need help from experienced
                                                              owners of both technologies.
                                         
High Altitude       Not susceptible      Only certain brands  Advantage LCD, some plasmas will
Performance                              are designed for HA  buzz excessively at higher altitude
                                       (did someone say NEC?) Most plasmas are rated to 5000ft
                                                              Just saw an add for a Runco 50†
                                                              plasma rated to 9000ft (only $16k)

Lifespan            50 to 60k hrs.       30 to 60k hrs.       Current generation essentially the 
                                                              same approx. 60000 hrs, if you are
                    Are the lamps        (Brightness          buying used, it may be closer
                    replaceable?         degradation to 50%)  to 20 to 30k it’s wise to know
                    Do the glass                              what brand and what generation 
                    panels degrade ?                          you are buying

Power Consumption   45†- 260 watts      50†- 530 watts      Advantage LCD,but narrowing advantage
                    42†- 240 watts    42†- 290-395 watts    actually was about 2:1 now on 25%
                    37†- 224 watts    37†- 225-325 watts    It should be noted that Pioneer’s
                    32†- 150 watts                           PDP504PU 50†plasma rated at 363w
                                                              but that is not typical. New range
                                                              on plasma - low nos. are for 7th gen. 
                                                              Panasonic only

Refresh Rates       16 to 25 ms          About 6 to 7 ms      Plasma is about as good as CRT’s
                    (8 ms in develop.)                        LCD will show some disjointed
                    (12 ms when Sharp 45†                    or blurred motion of fast moving 
                     is released soon)                        objects (i.e. tennis balls going 
                                                              over the net, thrown footballs)

Reliability                                                   Haven’t read about much difference
                                                              Am I uninformed? Is there a diff?
                                                              Both seem pretty reliable!

Resolution           LCD density        Plasma density        LCD’s will get 1920x1080 pixels
       (Diag. In.)  (pixels/sqin)        (pixels/sqin)        (a spec buyers nirvana) to market 
           21            4175                                 sooner but plasma will
           22            4457                                 shortly follow.
           30            2557                                 LCD however has a higher pixel
           37            1794                 1261            density and will do it in 45†
           42 (E)                              543(E)         whereas plasma will require 71â€
           42            1392                 1044            although technically they might
           42                                 1391(A)         eventually fit in about 60â€
           45            2397                                 
           50                                  982            If the numbers seem a little crazy
           55            1603                  811            see below as to how they were
           61                                  660            derived.
           63                                  619
           65                                  580
           71                                  963            (E) - EDTV version, (A) -ALIS model

Screen Size         13 to 42 inches      32 to 63 inches      42 inches is about the cross
                    (45-46†very soon)   (71 inches soon)     over point or potential battle
                                                              ground 

Thickness           2 to 3 inches        3 to 4 inches        LCD’s are generally thinner
                                                              by about an inch

Viewing Angle       Up to 170°            Up to 160°           Having just observed current
                                                              LCD models, I don’t see significant
                                                              differences in viewing angles 
                                                              I believe both are good up to 
                                                              150°, and beyond that it’s not
                                                              worth viewing the set because the 
                                                              picture at these angles is just too 
                                                              small to enjoy. Although 
                                                              I would be remiss in not pointing
                                                              out that there are a number of 
                                                              LCDTVs still on sale that I don’t
                                                              hold consistent pictures beyond 90° 
                                                              

Weight              45†about 51 lbs      42†about 66 lbs    LCD’s are typically lighter
                    37†about 41 lbs      42†cons. 92 lbs    and easier to mount and to 
                                          50†about 97 lbs    ship - consumer grade plasma 
                                                              can be considerably heavier


Resolution Calculations             pixels/sqin*
                            Norm.   ------------
Diagonal Width Height sqin  @50†   plasma   LCD
-------- ----- ------ ----  ------  ------   ----
21       18.3  10.3    188   0.18            4175
22       19.2  10.8    207   0.19            4457
26       22.7  12.7    289   0.27
30       26.1  14.7    384   0.36            2557
37       32.2  18.1    585   0.55   1261     1794
42       36.6  20.6    754   0.71    543(E)
42       36.6  20.6    754   0.71   1044     1392
42       36.6  20.6    754   0.71   1391(A)
45       39.2  22.1    865   0.81            2397
46       40.1  22.5    904   0.86            2294
50       43.6  24.5   1068   1.00    982
55       47.9  27.0   1293   1.21    811     1603
61       53.2  29.9   1590   1.49    660
63       54.9  30.9   1696   1.59    619
65       56.6  31.9   1806   1.69    580
71       61.9  34.8   2153   2.02    963

(E) - EDTV version of 42†plasma
(A) - ALIS models Click here to learn about ALIS

* To determine the values in these two columns - the sqin value to the left was
  divided INTO one of the typical screen resolutions found in the table below.
  The one chosen was what I felt was common for the diagonal size for the 
  respective technology. I generally chose the highest density I could identify
  if available in the marketplace - although I ignored ALIS units (note: just added 42†ALIS).

Norm. (Normalization) column provided only because I find it interesting. It is much easier to
see that a 71†model is twice (or 102% larger) as big as a 50†model, a 61†models is almost 50%
larger than a 50†model, and a 50†is almost 30% larger than a 42â€. The square inch figure at
50†(1068) is simply divided into the sqin value for each of the diagonals shown.

Width and Heights shown above were determined as follows:
--------------------------------------------------------
(Assumed an aspect ratio of 16 by 9)
a^2 + b^2 = c^2
a=16
b=9
a=16/9 x b
b=9/16 x a
solve for a or b shown above as a function of c

Answer: (where c is the diagonal inches of an HDTV)
a (width) = c / 1.1475
b (height)= c / 2.04

Here’s another method same result:
Here's the formula to calculate the width & height of a 16:9 image based on the diagonal:
 Angle = arc tan 16/9 = 60.64 deg.
 Width = Diagonal x sin 60.64 = Diagonal x 0.87
 Height = Diagonal x cos 60.64 = Diagonal x 0.49

Typical HDTV screen resolutions
-------------------------------
Hor.   Vert.    Total
pixels pixels  pixels
-----  ------  ------
 852    480    408960
1024    720    737280
1024    768    786432
1280    720    921600
1280    768    983040
1024   1024   1048576 (ALIS)
1366    768   1049088
1920   1080   2073600

** Luminance - refers to the amount of visually effective light emitted by an extended 
   source. Typically expressed in nits, footlamberts (fL) or candelas per square meter
   (cd/m2). Looking to convert units (nits, cd/m^2, fL (footLamberts) here’s the 
   conversion factors
   1 nit = 1 cd/m2
   1 fL = 3.43 cd/m2 or 3.42626 nits
   1 cd/m2(1 nit) = 0.292 fL
I’m tracking Home Theater Magazine data in this thread. The numbers presented here are a 
composite of the detail shown in that other thread. Unfortunately this is a new process for
HT Mag and not much data is yet available - so treat accordingly.

*** Widescreen Review (WSR) data was provided from an article titled “Display Technology
Shoot-Out Comparing CRT, LCD, Plasma(PLS), & DLP - Part I - The Primary Specs†
(Sept 2004). Only one brand per technology was tested - thus a very limited sample and
thus, like HTMag data, it does not provide enough data to derive conclusions.

Here's the summary of WSR article:
Black Level
-------------------------------------------------
CRT - Sony PVM-20L5 - 0.01 cd/m^2
LCD - NEC LCD4000   - 0.72 cd/m^2 (Max Backlight)
                    - 0.27 cd/m^2 (Min Backlight)
PLS - NEC 61XM2     - 0.42 cd/m^2
DLP - Optoma RD-50  - 0.26 cd/m^2

Peak Brightness
------------------------------------------------
CRT - Sony PVM-20L5 - 176 cd/m^2
LCD - NEC LCD4000   - 428 cd/m^2 (Max Backlight)
                    - 160 cd/m^2 (Min Backlight)
PLS - NEC 61XM2     - 212 cd/m^2 (5% APL)
                    - 133 cd/m^2 (25% APL)
                    -  81 cd/m^2 (50% APL)
                    -  53 cd/m^2 (100% APL)
DLP - Optoma RD-50  - 359 cd/m^2

where APL = Averge Picture Level - in our case APL refers to the percentage of 
                                   pixels that are set to peak white.

Dynamic Range (Ratio of peak white luminance to black level luminance)
--------------------------------------
CRT - Sony PVM-20L5 - 17600
LCD - NEC LCD4000   -   595
PLS - NEC 61XM2     -   505 (5% APL)
                    -   317 (25% APL)
                    -   193 (50% APL)
                    -   126 (100% APL)
DLP - Optoma RD-50   - 1381

Display Contrast
---------------------------------------
4x4 Checkerboard Contrast
--------------------------
CRT - Sony PVM-20L5 - 219
LCD - NEC LCD4000   - 586
PLS - NEC 61XM2     - 475 (5% APL)
                    - 305 (25% APL)
                    - 188 (50% APL)
                    - 124 (100% APL)
DLP - Optoma RD-50  - 332

9x9 Checkerboard Contrast
--------------------------
CRT - Sony PVM-20L5 -  75
LCD - NEC LCD4000   - 577
PLS - NEC 61XM2     - 449 (5% APL)
                    - 294 (25% APL)
                    - 184 (50% APL)
                    - 122 (100% APL)
DLP - Optoma RD-50  - 274

**** NEC has the latest video processing circuitry which uses a new algorithm to 
reduce false color contours plus a 10-bit conversion process for more precise 
reproduction of shades of black delivers dark scenes with details that are sharp and 
distinct

Panasonic - 1536 Shades of Gradation (certain models)
Plasma displays can suffer from an artifact called "false contouring", where 
transitions between different shades of the same color are too sharp. These 
transitions can appear as distinct lines between the different shades of color.
Having 1536 shades of gradation helps minimize the false contouring artifact so 
color transitions take on a smooth, natural appearance.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

semigolfer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 11:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Bigelow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here we go again, break out the gloves! :D

I have both technologies and both seem to have advantages.

With bright, colorful material both formats are capable of producing mesmerizing pictures.

To me, the real battle is in low level color and low level brightness. I have seen many (otherwise nice performing) LCDs and Plasmas fall flat with these situations. It's not all "contrast ratio" either : solarization, inaccurate "color" of black, noise, color shift (related to angle) and graininess all contribute to an unrealistic picture at these low picture levels.

Since most "real world" program content is not a bright, sunny, day at the beach, low lighting level performance should be considered in any purchase.

Not sure how to quanify these items: Black level, can be measured certainly. How about graininess or noise? How about posterization? Color Depth?
Paul Bigelow is offline  
post #3 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 11:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
Picus_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't want to get involved but one thing I'm not sure about on your chart is the viewing angle? I was under the impression that both were smaller, but plasma's was slightly larger than LCDs. Then again things change so fast I might be totally wrong. :D

Anyway, in regards to which is better, I defer to Mr. Bigelow's post.
Picus_H is offline  
post #4 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 11:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,284
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 562
Black level:
"Recent LCD units make it hard
to call this one."

No, in fact they don't. Use a light meter on any LCD against Matsushita glass and it's not even remotely close.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #5 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
semigolfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: (SE)MI
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I wanna be in Paul's shoes and own one of each.

I agree I've seen some great pictures on both.
The LCD's catch my eye because they are so sharp, and the colors are truly very vivid.
Plasma offer what seems to be incredibly accurate color especially in facial tones.

As for viewing angle, Picus, I went with what was on some vendors web sites for those angles.

As for black level, Rogo, I agree the blacks may be technically darker on a plasma, but because the colors seem brighter to me on LCD (cyan versus blue) and (magenta vs red) in comparison to a neighboring black on the same screen - the black "appears" to be darker to me. Not as dark as a plasma - but darker than I expected on an LCD- especially on the newer Panasonic and Sony LCD's I saw last week. This is most noticible when you have the two technologies side by side - showing something like flowers with vibrant red and blues, and some black boulders nearby. Granted when something goes black on an LCD I don't see anything in the shadows.

I could be all screwed up, but that's what my brain is telling me. I wish I had one of each at home, and I could spend more time viewing the same, but different movies.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

semigolfer is offline  
post #6 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 12:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Bigelow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think present plasmas have an advantage over LCD in viewing angle.

Most LCDs will have color/brightness shifts that I just don't see in Plasma sets. Some LCD sets maintain a reasonable color of black at wide angles but some (Zenith, LG, Philips) sets show various primary colors (and mixes of them) leaking into the black which looks very strange.

Overall, though, LCDs are getting better (IMHO).
Paul Bigelow is offline  
post #7 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 12:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by semigolfer
I wanna be in Paul's shoes and own one of each.

As for black level, Rogo, I agree the blacks may be technically darker on a plasma, but because the colors seem brighter to me on LCD (cyan versus blue) and (magenta vs red) in comparison to a neighboring black on the same screen - the black "appears" to be darker to me. Not as dark as a plasma - but darker than I expected on an LCD- especially on the newer Panasonic and Sony LCD's I saw last week. This is most noticeable when you have the two technologies side by side - showing something like flowers with vibrant red and blues, and some black boulders nearby. Granted when something goes black on an LCD I don't see anything in the shadows.

I could be all screwed up, but that's what my brain is telling me. I wish I had one of each at home, and I could spend more time viewing the same, but different movies.
I think the phenomenon you are describing is an accepted one. I can certainly see the effect of apparently deeper blacks on certain material on LCDs (with store lights on).

Unfortunately for me, I've seen too many LCD displays, RPTV and flat panel, in low lighting conditions. My problem is I am no longer fooled to the degree I used to be by the LCD contrast trick. Even in store lighting I can see shadow detail and dark scenes have that illuminated blue LCD glow, which to me is a turn off.

I do however really like other aspects of LCD images - the impressive sharpness, vividness and palpability of the image.

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is online now  
post #8 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 01:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
Picus_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 734
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a small direct view LCD and the viewing angle is really bad. Now I am wondering if I got a mediocre panel. I enjoy the picture in a well lighted room and since it's a small screen it's incredibly sharp - but the colors have this propensity to become over saturated or washed out depending on where I stand if I'm not within ~45 degree of the front of the screen. Weird. =/
Picus_H is offline  
post #9 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 01:26 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,284
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 562
Instantaneous eye contrast limits notwithstanding, when the scene gets dark, and the room is dim or darker, the illusion fades.

Arguing that LCD has darker blacks when watching football games is -- to me -- like arguing the Passat is faster than the Porsche because it's better at accelerating while waiting at a toll plaza.

And, no, this is not an anti-LCD rant. The LCD is good at a number of things. If people want to buy them, good for you. It's just simply not true they measure up on certain aspects of picture quality. Contrarily, there are things plasmas can't do very well.

I just don't agree color fidelity is one of them, but that is certainly an area where preferences overtake instruments and one has to make one's own mind up.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #10 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 02:59 PM
Senior Member
 
jeremys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
maybe some people do 90% of their driving through toll booths.. ;) j/k

seriously, couple comments:

1. Lifespan - To me, this word conjours thoughts of death, but the manufacturs state it is the time in which brightness (or other) decreases by X percentage.

2. Fan - I would put this on there. Any LCDs with fan? (fan noise)

3. Aren't there 40+ LCDs already? I thought sony had a 42. and doesnt NEC have a 40?
jeremys is offline  
post #11 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 03:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JuiceRocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, California
Posts: 4,701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Here is a link to another LCD vs. Plasma thread that might help. Not a huge thread, but it does go over some of the info being discussed here.

-JR


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JuiceRocket is offline  
post #12 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
agogley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Sony has a 42" and Sharp will have a 45" LCD. Both are pretty darn expensive.

As far as energy is concerned, the Pios have deeper pixels which causes the plasmas to use about the same energy as an LCD.

I haven't heard of too much fan noise on newer plasmas...the media boxes maybe..but not the display itself.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
agogley is offline  
post #13 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 03:45 PM
R11
AVS Special Member
 
R11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 4,924
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Some specs for the upcoming Sharp 45:

Power consumption - 260 watts
Contrast ratio - 800:1
Response time - less than 12 ms.
Weight - 51 lbs.


ron
R11 is offline  
post #14 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
semigolfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: (SE)MI
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the comments guys, and JuiceRocket for the link. If nothing comes up I'll try to post the 2nd draft sometime tomorrow, that will incorporate most of the feedback.

R11 - could you provide the source for your data on the Sharp 45 - I like to keep track of my information sources when I post - and I didn't find confirming info at the Sharp website. I've read their press releases on the 45 and I didn't locate these specs.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

semigolfer is offline  
post #15 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 05:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Enigma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 4,414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I think to make this meaningful you'd have to compare the best of each; for example Panny SD vs. Panny or Sony LCD; or Fuji p50 vs the same. Of course, then you are comparing different size displays, which may be somewhat counter-productive; but at least on certain things (black level, CR, viewing angle, etc) you could get a "state of the art" comparison. Some comparisons, like the new 45" sharp vs. any 42" plasma will be skewed towards LCD as far as resolution, min viewing distance, etc; but obviously in favor of the plasma when it comes to cost.

I guess what I'm saying is the two still aren't comarable enough to exactly go head-to-head, except maybe in a few niche situations. Most cases the choice will be priorities, with plasmas having distinct advantages in some categories and LCD in others.

Hal
Enigma is offline  
post #16 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 05:22 PM
R11
AVS Special Member
 
R11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 4,924
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Semi,

Those specs came off the official Sharp "LC-45GX6U Features and Specifications" pdf that Mike53 sent me last week.

ron
R11 is offline  
post #17 of 79 Old 08-03-2004, 06:04 PM
Senior Member
 
jeremys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
the sharp 45 pdf is avail on plasma concepts website.
jeremys is offline  
post #18 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 12:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
KostyaNP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
semigolfer

I like the idea of the table... maybe we will finally get some sober and factual comparison of the technology, instead of the usual.

I'd also like to suggest and addition to the table: "Fill ratio". If I remember correctly I've seen rogo and others mentioning this parameter, but I can not find the definition right now (yes, I did try the search, and not on this forum only). So, the suggested (rather intuitive and informal) definition is "ratio of active (illuminating) area of the display to passive (pixels separating) area".

Now, why do I think this is important. Poor fill ratio is the reason for screendoor effect, this is first-order effect, and it also might be a contributing factor into great ED plasmas contrast ratio. I believe, however, there is more which is contributed into the overall PQ by the fill ratio. I believe that extremely high fill ratio of the direct view CRTs is one of the reasons for the CRTs unsurpassed smoothness and film-likeness of the picture. Same effect applies for the front projection systems, if we can ignore lower brightness/contrast.

Currently I think (most) LCDs have an advantage over (most) plasmas in fill ratio, but this just my, rather unsupported, opinion.

Kostya N.P.
Green is unnatural color for a human being.
KostyaNP is offline  
post #19 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 01:16 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,284
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 562
The Sharp 45" is a bargain compared to the Sony 42". A serious bargain.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #20 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
semigolfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: (SE)MI
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The second draft is now available for your review - see top of thread.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

semigolfer is offline  
post #21 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 08:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Paul Bigelow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've seen fans on an LCD set. The Toshiba 26HL83 has them.

Some LCD sets get quite warm, if not hot. I have some concerns about the long-term results of the florescent light heat on the LCD panel -- discoloration, for example. LCDs should be well ventilated.
Paul Bigelow is offline  
post #22 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 09:19 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Quote:
Originally posted by KostyaNP
semigolfer

Now, why do I think this is important. Poor fill ratio is the reason for screendoor effect, this is first-order effect, and it also might be a contributing factor into great ED plasmas contrast ratio. I believe, however, there is more which is contributed into the overall PQ by the fill ratio. I believe that extremely high fill ratio of the direct view CRTs is one of the reasons for the CRTs unsurpassed smoothness and film-likeness of the picture.
Depending on how you using the word "smooth" I beg to differ a tad.

For direct-view TVs I've always been aware of the scan lines and pixels of tube sets. And I've never found their image to be particularly film-like at all.
Generally, I find tube sets look "TV-like," whatever they are playing.

CRT Rear Projection sets certainly look more film-like (given that it's a projection technology it makes sense). However, even in really good, well calibrated RPTVs I am often aware of up-ressing (and other) noise and artifacts in the image. It's a sort of grainy look that never really goes away.

I find the processing in the latest digital tube sets also produces artifacts that I've yet to be able to dial completely out.

All in all, it's rare that I've seen any CRT image that is as over-all smooth and artifact-free as the one from my plasma. And I've never seen a CRT match both the clarity and smoothness of the plasma image simultaneously (the CRTs can be dialed to look smooth, but typically at a loss of clarity, comparative to a good plasma).

All that said, "fill factor" is obviously a picture quality parameter that affects some viewers more than others.

Rich H


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
R Harkness is online now  
post #23 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 10:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,284
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 562
"Poor fill ratio is the reason for screendoor effect, this is first-order effect,"

Yes.

" and it also might be a contributing factor into great ED plasmas contrast ratio."

Not at all.

" I believe, however, there is more which is contributed into the overall PQ by the fill ratio. I believe that extremely high fill ratio of the direct view CRTs is one of the reasons for the CRTs unsurpassed smoothness and film-likeness of the picture."

CRTs have phosphor dots that are tiny, don't really have a fill ratio in the sense of fixed-pixel displays, are wonderful. Are not wonderful because of high fill ratio but because TV is shot and produced for playback on them, by and large.

"Currently I think (most) LCDs have an advantage over (most) plasmas in fill ratio, but this just my, rather unsupported, opinion."

Yes, but not so much of an advantage. Generally, LCD pixels are smaller and more numerous so their (like plasma) generally poor fill ratio is mitigated by the pixel size.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #24 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 11:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ADGrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
"LCD’s will get 1920x1080 pixels (a spec buyers nirvana)"

Does wanting a fixed pixel display capable of resolving all the detail in a 1080i Hi Def picture make one a "spec buyer"?
ADGrant is offline  
post #25 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 12:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
rogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Stop making curved screens
Posts: 30,284
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 562
Yes and no AD. There isn't really 1920 x 1080 detail in a 1080i picture. It's something that's typically only about 1300 pixels worth width-wise and temporarlly just 540 height-wise. Now, with film source stuff, the vertical res will be great -- if the Sharp has 3:2 pulldown. If not, I suspect the 1080i deinterlacing won't impress. Even with 3:2, video-sourced material will deinterlace only so-so. 1080i-->p deinterlacing is hard and not cheap to do well.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
rogo is offline  
post #26 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 03:30 PM
Moderator
 
Barrybud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Southeastern, PA
Posts: 2,545
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Just curious if LCD really quotes 170 degree viewing angle? All that I have seen are less then plasma and there is often a brightness loss and color shift as you get off axis.

Quick Reference of Forum Rules
1) Do Not post pricing you found on-line or at a local dealer UNLESS IN A DEALS THREAD.
2) Do Not ask for, or offer, a receipt so people can price match.
3) Do Not say to "Call John Smith at ..." (you know what I mean)
4) Do Not put down someone else's choice in...

Barrybud is offline  
post #27 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 03:45 PM
Member
 
Marquis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
They do say that, and IMO it's one of the more bogus things in their specs.
Marquis is offline  
post #28 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 04:12 PM
Advanced Member
 
KostyaNP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yeah, it's like with RPTVs... you still get some picture at 135 degrees, so the viewing angle in specs is 135 degrees. Who cares if plasma gives you perfect picture at 179 degrees.

Kostya N.P.
Green is unnatural color for a human being.
KostyaNP is offline  
post #29 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 04:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
KostyaNP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To Rich Harkness, rogo, semigolfer (please note the alphabetical order :D) - I fill obligated to continue with "fill ratio" line of thoughts. And I will. I just need some more time - I don't want to spoil the that promising thread with unorganized, scatteres thoughts.

Kostya N.P.
Green is unnatural color for a human being.
KostyaNP is offline  
post #30 of 79 Old 08-04-2004, 04:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
goombawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Not sure about LCD vs. Plasma but what I do know is that both kick the cr*p out of RP/DLP. I can't stand the artificial look of it's PQ, and the rainbow effect is painful to look at (for me). And never mind about the viewing angle. Blech.
goombawa is offline  
Closed Thread OLED Technology and Flat Panels General

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off